Talk:Economics of bitcoin

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Reddit

On Reddit.com you can use bitcoins to buy gold. Is that noted anywhere on the page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.46.118.15 (talk) 06:14, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

Price rise of BTC fueled by counterfeit Tether coins.

The below source makes the claim that the creation of unbacked Tether coins at Bitfinex is causing the meteoric rise in the price of Bitcoin, because of the unfettered ability to sell the one and use the proceeds to buy the other (in practice being accomplished as a direct currency pair exchange). The goal of any counterfeiter is to exchange their bogus currency for a legitimate one as efficiently as possible, and in one author's opinion Bitfinex is knowingly facilitating this. https://seekingalpha.com/article/4129543-bitcoin-one-way-go-true — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.211.91.161 (talk) 21:27, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Coffeezilla has indepth videos exposing Tether and it's bubble effect on the crypto market. Expoing Tether-Bitcoin' Bigges Secret Tether is Hiding Something Basically, the fact everyone with crypto in their exchange hasn't yet bank run all their money out is he only reason Bitfinex/Tether haven't collapsed. Lots of forensic accounting involved, but Bitfinex and Tether are owned by the same people and funds from one are used to cover for the other and vice versa. 2601:244:0:E790:DC1D:327E:53B1:ACE6 (talk) 15:16, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Bubble pumping is an understatement. According to size and risk involved, it could result in a massive economic collapse. 2601:244:0:E790:DC1D:327E:53B1:ACE6 (talk) 15:19, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Merchants That No Longer Accept Bitcoin

I recently read an article that some of the brands that once accepted Bitcoin have changed their mind. Here's why these major brands have stopped accepting Bitcoin Dell, Expedia, Fiverr, Microsoft, PayPal, Steam, and Stripe are specifically mentioned by name, but it needs to be updated to keep track of which brands still accept Bitcoin versus which have stopped. 2601:244:80:3F60:B976:46F0:BDA1:70D9 (talk) 14:40, 24 January 2019 (UTC)

Acceptance By Nonprofits

Merchants/businesses are tough to keep track of as ones that formerly accepted it, stealthily stop accepting it without press releases. Nonprofits are easier to keep track of. Either their donate page has crypto dono options or not.

Examples:

• Electronic Frontier Foundation BTC and BCH proof
• Democracy Now BTC only (as in the only one that doesn't BCH or LTC alongside it) proof
• Wikimedia Foundation BTC and BCH proof
• Free Software Foundation BTC and LTC proof
• Against Malaria Foundation BTC, BCH, DOGE, ETH, LTC, XRP, and SHIB proof

Note: BTC is Bitcoin, BCH is Bitcoin cash, and LTC is Litecoin.

Nonprofits that explicitly no longer accept crypto:

• Mozilla Foundation a vague not at this time statement that leaves it vague if they may accept it again proof and yet another not accepting crypto statement, but this time blaming the ecoloical/environmental impact of crypto for the reason to not accept donations proof 2 Note: There was a one week window between these two statements, so this is why they are re-freezing aka re-banning crypto donations.
• Greenpeace stealthily dropped crypto without a notice of doing so (no proof here, will try to find it later)

Basically, instead of possibly dated media/press releases and blog posts, nonprofit acceptance should use direct donation links (like provided above in proof link examples) as the basis of proof. 2601:244:80:3F60:E459:CBB4:A73:5490 (talk) 22:01, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

More Crypto Accepting Nonprofits with proof links in post Also, any site/nonprofit using BitPay accepts both BTC and BCH by default. 2601:244:80:3F60:E459:CBB4:A73:5490 (talk) 22:45, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

More examples:

• The Water Project BTC, BCH, DAI, ETH, LTC, and USDC proof
• Internet Archive BTC, BCH, ETH, FIL, XRP, and ZEC proof
• Humanity Road BTC, BCH, ETH, and LTC proof
• The Tor Project, Inc BTC, BCH, DASH, DOGE, ETH, LTC, XMR, XLM, ZEC proof
• Tunapanda Institute BTC (plus many more) proof
• Code to Inspire BTC, BCH, ETH, LTC, ZEC, BAT, LINK, and GUSD proof proof 2
• United Way Worldwide BTC (plus many more) proof
• American Red Cross BTC and BCH proof
• Save the Children BTC, BCH, and ETH (plus many more) proof proof 2
• Watsi BTC

Note: Any non profit that uses bitpay automatically accepts all fiat as well as Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash. 2601:244:0:E790:DC1D:327E:53B1:ACE6 (talk) 20:48, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Summary:

• Bitcoin: EFF, DN, WF, FSF, AMF, TWP, IA, HR, TTPI, TPI, CtI, UWW, ARC, STC, and W
• Bitcoin Cash: EFF, WF, AMF, TWP, IA, HR, TTPI, CtI, ARC, and STC
• Ethereum: AMF, TWP, IA, HR, TTPI, CtI, and STC
• Litecoin: FSF, AMF, TWP, HR, TTPI, and CtI
• Zcash: IA, TTPI, and CtI
• Ripple: AMF and IA
• Dogecoin: AMF and TTPI
• Shiba Inu: AMF
• Dai: TWP
• USD Coin: TWP
• Filecoin: IA
• Dash: TTPI
• Monero: TTPI
• Stellar Lumens: TTPI
• Basic Attention Token: CtI
• Chainlink: CtI
• Gemini Dollar: CtI

Note: DAI is Dai (cryptocurrency), DOGE is Dogecoin, ETH is Ethereum, FIL is Filecoin, XRP is Ripple_(payment_protocol), SHIB is Shiba Inu (cryptocurrency), USDC is USD Coin, ZEC is Zcash, BAT is Basic Attention Token from Brave (web browser), LINK is Chainlink (blockchain), and GUSD is Gemini_(company) Dollar. Also will provide donation link proof and/or BitPay proof or other ways to give info links proof (for when the crypto dono is separate from general dono) later after sorting through. 2601:244:80:3F60:E459:CBB4:A73:5490 (talk) 23:05, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Note: Due to Tor Project adding wallets, DASH is Dash_(cryptocurrency), XMR is Monero, and XLM is Stellar_(payment_network) Lumens. 2601:244:0:E790:475:F16E:BBDA:6DCE (talk) 00:56, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Note: Plus many more was added due to Giving Block being added to the donate crypto pages of TPI, UWW, and STC. The TPI proof now directly goes to the donate crypto page now. The GB box in the link has dozen of crypto to choose from, too many to list here. 2601:244:0:E790:475:F16E:BBDA:6DCE (talk) 15:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Proof provided. Also, updated some other info too. 2601:244:80:3F60:E459:CBB4:A73:5490 (talk) 23:17, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Clarified Red Cross as American specific. 2601:244:80:3F60:E459:CBB4:A73:5490 (talk) 23:19, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Mozilla Foundation is flip flopping on crypto donaions, but it seems they won't be accepting anytime soon. 2601:244:0:E790:DC1D:327E:53B1:ACE6 (talk) 14:31, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Links listed more cryptos they accept, so updates. 2601:244:0:E790:DC1D:327E:53B1:ACE6 (talk) 23:02, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Abbreviations, summaries, and notes all synched with the updates. 2601:244:0:E790:DC1D:327E:53B1:ACE6 (talk) 23:07, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Notes spellchecked, so everything is fully up to date now. 2601:244:0:E790:DC1D:327E:53B1:ACE6 (talk) 23:10, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Tunapanda Institute article links works now as P was incorrectly capitalized. Also, updated the Code to Inspire info. 2601:244:0:E790:F48A:10C5:A82B:6E7 (talk) 00:36, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Note: Some non-profits have both BitPay links and crypto donation links, so list now reflects both. 2601:244:0:E790:94BA:8E45:34DA:ED79 (talk) 13:31, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

As a bubble

There's currently more detailed info about the economics of Bitcoin-as-a-bubble at the general Cryptocurrency bubble page than here, which seems backwards. See also Talk: Cryptocurrency bubble#POV forking. I suggest moving most of that material here, leaving a brief summary paragraph in its place. Under § Speculative bubble in this article, I propose adding something like the following text:

Proposed text

Speculative bubble Further information: Cryptocurrency bubble Bitcoin has been characterized as a speculative bubble by eight winners of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences: Paul Krugman, Robert J. Shiller, Joseph Stiglitz, Richard Thaler, James Heckman, Thomas Sargent, Angus Deaton, and Oliver Hart; and by central bank officials including Alan Greenspan, Ben Bernanke, Janet Yellen, Agustín Carstens, Vítor Constâncio, and Nout Wellink. The investors Warren Buffett and George Soros have respectively characterized it as a "mirage" and a "bubble"; while the business executives Jack Ma and Jamie Dimon have called it a "bubble" and a "fraud", respectively. Views of economists As early as 2014, Nobel laureate Robert J. Shiller stated that bitcoin "exhibited many of the characteristics of a speculative bubble"; in 2017, Shiller wrote that bitcoin was the best current example of a speculative bubble. Economist John Quiggin in 2013 said "bitcoins are the most demonstrably valueless financial asset ever created". Researchers Neil Gandal, JT Hamrick, Tyler Moore, and Tali Oberman claimed that in late 2013, price manipulation by one person likely caused a price spike from USD$150 to more than USD$1000. Nobel laureate Joseph Stiglitz in 2017 said "It’s a bubble that’s going to give a lot of people a lot of exciting times as it rides up and then goes down." He emphasized its use by criminals, its lack of a socially useful purpose, and said that it should be outlawed. Nobel laureate Paul Krugman wrote in 2018 that bitcoin is "a bubble wrapped in techno-mysticism inside a cocoon of libertarian ideology". He criticized it as a very slow and expensive means of payment, used mostly to buy blackmarket goods, without a "tether to reality". Nobel laureate Richard Thaler emphasizes the irrationality in the bitcoin market that has led to the bubble, demonstrating the irrationality with the example of firms that have added the word "blockchain" to their names which have then had large increases in their stock price. The extremely high volatility in bitcoin's price also is due to irrationality according to Thaler. Four Nobel laureates, James Heckman, Thomas Sargent, Angus Deaton, and Oliver Hart, characterized bitcoin as a bubble at a joint press conference in 2018. Hart cited Christopher Sims's work showing no intrinsic value to bitcoin. Heckman compared bitcoin to the tulip bubble. Deaton pointed to bitcoin's use by criminals. Professor Nouriel Roubini of New York University has called Bitcoin the "mother of all bubbles". He believes that a revolution in financial technology (fintech) is now happening, but that it does not include the flawed blockchain used by bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. Bitcoin has failed, according to Roubini, as a unit of account, a means of payment, and as a store of value, the three attributes needed by any successful currency. "Scammers, swindlers, charlatans, and carnival barkers (all conflicted insiders) have tapped into clueless retail investors’ FOMO (“fear of missing out”), and taken them for a ride." Views of central bank officials Early claims that bitcoin was a bubble focused on the lack of any intrinsic value of bitcoin. These claims include that of former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan in 2013. He stated "You really have to stretch your imagination to infer what the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is. I haven't been able to do it." In 2017 Greenspan compared bitcoin to the Continental dollar, which ultimately collapsed. He said "Humans buy all sorts of things that aren't worth anything. People gamble in casinos when the odds are against them. It has never stopped anybody." Former Fed Chair Ben Bernanke (in 2015) and outgoing Fed Chair Janet Yellen (in 2017) have both expressed concerns about the stability of bitcoin's price and its lack of use as a medium of transactions. Agustin Carstens, head of the Bank of International Settlements, has said that bitcoin is a speculative bubble and that the general public should be protected from its effects. It is "a combination of a bubble, a Ponzi scheme and an environmental disaster". David Andolfatto, a vice president at the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis, stated, "Is bitcoin a bubble? Yes, if bubble is defined as a liquidity premium." According to Andolfatto, the price of bitcoin "consists purely of a bubble". Comparisons of bitcoin to the tulip mania of seventeenth-century Holland have been made by the vice-president of the European Central Bank, Vítor Constâncio and by former president of the Dutch Central Bank, Nout Wellink. In 2013, Wellink remarked, "This is worse than the tulip mania [...] At least then you got a tulip [at the end], now you get nothing." Views of investors and executives External videos Bitcoin Is More Than a Bubble And Here To Stay, 1:39:01, Intelligence Squared American investor Warren Buffett warned investors about bitcoin in 2014, "Stay away from it. It's a mirage, basically." He repeated the warning in 2018 calling bitcoin "probably rat poison squared". He believes that bitcoin is a non-productive asset. "When you're buying nonproductive assets, all you're counting on is the next person is going to pay you more because they're even more excited about another next person coming along." Buffett's close associate Charlie Munger is even more direct in his distain. Trading cryptocurrencies is "just dementia" according to Munger. Bitcoin is "worthless" and a "turd". John Bogle, the founder of The Vanguard Group, is also very direct "Avoid bitcoin like the plague. Did I make myself clear? .... There is nothing to support bitcoin except the hope that you will sell it to someone for more than you paid for it." George Soros, answering an audience question after a speech in Davos, Switzerland in 2018, said that cryptocurrencies are not a store of value but are an economic bubble. Nevertheless, they may not crash due to the rising influence of dictators trying to "build a nest egg abroad". James Chanos, known as the "dean of the short sellers", believes that bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies are a mania and useful only for tax avoidance or otherwise hiding income from the government. Bitcoin "is simply a security speculation game masquerading as a technological breakthrough in monetary policy". Two lead software developers of bitcoin, Gavin Andresen and Mike Hearn, have warned that bubbles may occur. On 13 September 2017, Jamie Dimon referred to bitcoin to as a "fraud", comparing it to pyramid schemes, and stated that JPMorgan Chase would fire employees trading while the company released a report critical of the cryptocurrency. However, in a January 2018 interview Jamie Dimon voiced regrets about his earlier Bitcoin remarks, and noted "The blockchain is real, You can have cryptodollars in yen and stuff like that. ICOs ... you got to look at everyone individually." Alibaba chairman Jack Ma has said, "There is no bubble for blockchain, but there's a bitcoin bubble." Sources

Any thoughts? —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 01:55, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Seems logical, would be better here than on cryptocurrency bubble. Jtbobwaysf (talk) 08:18, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

The sentence "The investors Warren Buffett and George Soros have respectively characterized it as a "mirage"[1] and a "bubble";[2] while the business executives Jack Ma and Jamie Dimon have called it a "bubble"[3] and a "fraud",[4] respectively." violates WP:NPOV. How? While it is true that Jamie Dimon called bitcoin a "fraud", the problems are:

• The text of the section shows that Dimon's claim was considered a market manipulation by other sources.
• Dimon apologized for the claim later on.

Thus, summarizing the whole issue by the claim that Dimon called bitcoin a "fraud" is a violation of WP:NPOV. Ladislav Mecir (talk) 10:33, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Nonsense. Dimon's statement itself achieved noteworthy coverage in RSes at the time - David Gerard (talk) 07:10, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Too many headers

The page is unwieldy. There are too many headers. Thenightaway (talk) 16:12, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

Original Research template

Please discuss sections with original research here. Newystats (talk) 22:12, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I've now removed the template Newystats (talk) 10:24, 6 January 2024 (UTC)