Talk:Disappearance of Natalee Holloway

Requested move 18 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. There is consensus against moving to the Murder of ... title, with support instead for Killing of ... However, several users oppose on the basis that the article is mainly concerned with the disappearance, and giving this due weight the current title is appropriate. (closed by non-admin page mover) Polyamorph (talk) 09:42, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

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Disappearance of Natalee Holloway → Murder of Natalee Holloway – Now that it is known that Joran van der Sloot indeed murdered Natalee Holloway, would it be more appropriate for this article to be called "Murder of Natalee Holloway" since it wasn't just a "disappearance" as previously believed? Paul Vaurie (talk) 16:32, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Here is a source confirming that Joran van der Sloot killed murdered Holloway. Paul Vaurie (talk) 16:34, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. Too early. As can be read in the article, he has made numerous statements and confessions over the years. Let's wait for something more substantial. Edited to add: let's not forget this is a plea deal. SQB (talk) 16:36, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Move to Killing of Natalee Holloway per WP:DEATHS. We now have reliable sources reporting that he has officially confessed to killing her on the record. The fact that he has confessed as part of a plea deal is inconsequential. He has freely admitted his actions to a court. That's all we need to change the title and there is no reason to delay moving the article. It is not Wikipedia's place to question his admission. Rreagan007 (talk) 17:09, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  He has freely admitted his guilt to a court, but the admission is without negative consequences since (as I understand it) he cannot be prosecuted for the murder in the USA, while he stands to gain a reduction in sentence in the case he ''is'' being tried for. SQB (talk) 19:28, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

• Wait - murder is a specific legal word. At the moment he has confirmed that he killed her, per news reports. Rather than change the article title more than once, let the final conviction be settled, so that the article can be properly named either "Killing of" or "Murder of", per WP:DEATHS#Flowchart. Probably a short wait, given the activity in court already today. Jmg38 (talk) 18:27, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Against - but change to "Killing of" per flowchart. Reading more on today's confession, this may well be stranded in the "Killing of" category, as the proffer letter allows him to reach a plea agreement on the associated extortion charges without his confession of killing her being used against him in court. Over 18 years since her (now confirmed) killing, and authorities have not found evidence to charge him regarding her death (which could then, possibly, change this to "Murder of"), but a breakthrough at some future date could lead to another change of the article title at that time. Jmg38 (talk) 19:20, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

• Move to Killing of Natalee Holloway per Jmg38 – van der Sloot, as part of a plea agreement with the U.S. attorney's office, confessed to killing Holloway. Murder is a type of homicide that requires a conviction in a court of law, which has not happened in this case in the U.S. or any other jurisdiction and it would be WP:CRYSTALBALL to speculate whether that will happen or not. However, it is clear that van der Sloot confessed to killing Holloway per the NYT and therefore the page should be moved to "killing" because this is no longer a disappearance and the current title is inaccurate. This situation is similar to that of Killing of Gabby Petito. cookie monster 755 20:59, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Move to Killing of Natalee Holloway per WP:DEATHS. estar8806 (talk) ★ 22:40, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
• Move to Killing per Cookie Monster. Van Der Sloot has not been convicted in a court of law for homicide in the Holloway case. He has only confessed to her killing.Canuck^{89 (Talk to me) or visit my user page} 22:23, October 18, 2023 (UTC)
• Leave as is. This article always has been strange, because it focuses on an investigation that basically went nowhere and the media sensation involved as everything went nowhere. It really didn't focus on the disappearance per se, because we knew nothing about it. Same for the killing: we've got a couple of sentences about a rebuffed sexual advance, and that's barely going to make a dent in the lede. The article is about the investigation and media frenzy, and that investigation and frenzy was about a disappearance. I don't feel strongly about it, but I don't see a strong argument for a title change. —Kww(talk) 05:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  If the article is about the investigation and media frenzy, then disapperance doesn't fit either for the scope. Support Killing of Natalee Holloway. PhotographyEdits (talk) 09:08, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose I agree with Kww. Changing the title to "Killing of..." puts an undue emphasis on the killing act when the article isn't really about the killing at all. The article is about her disappearance and the years of searching for her and investigating. In years down the line, the title could be changed depending on how sources change their approach to the subject. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 07:52, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose. The text of the article is in fact mostly about the disappearance, and at this point in time we have no reason to believe the tesimony of van der Sloot to the point of even assuming Holloway was murdered, or in the date in question. If there is a trial and a conviction, perhaps we revisit. DarkSide830 (talk) 14:54, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose for now - too soon, let the sources settle a bit. CNN called it a killing and murder both in the same article. We're not on a deadline.⋆｡°✩🎃✩°｡⋆ Isaidnoway (talk) 16:45, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Are you saying that we should wait before deciding if the title should be "Murder of..." or "Killing of..."? Because our guidelines are pretty clear that between those 2 it should be "Killing of..." Rreagan007 (talk) 16:35, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

• Change proposal to Killing of Natalee Holloway - I was not aware that "murder" requires a conviction according to WP:DEATHS. Per that, rename to Killing. Paul Vaurie (talk) 21:07, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Support the alternative with Killing in the title. Killuminator (talk) 18:11, 28 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Lead too long?

Currently, the lead repeats a lot of the sections below about her disappearance and the search, arrests, and so on. Should we trim it back to 4-5 shorter paragraphs, detailing who she is, when and under what circumstances she disappeared, what her current status is (missing presumed dead) and that JvdS is the prime suspect who has recently confessed.SQB (talk) 14:04, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

The lead is supposed to summarize the article. So naturally, everything will be repeated in the sections below. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 15:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)