Talk:David Hoyle (performance artist)

Deletion comments

I cannot understand why anyone would think the entry for David Hoyle, previously working under the name "The Divine David" was a non critical bio. This artist brings a unique view to the queer and avant garde performance scene. By withdrawing this bio, it make a nonsense of the link to his entry under the "Nathan Barley" cast list, and without it, one is redirected to an entry on an only slightly similar named American politician. This artist is experiencing a personal rennaissance, and will become more prominent in the near future, and will be ill-served by Wikipedia if he does not have his own entry.

It's non-notable because there are no references, no indications as to why he should be included (awards, interviews, reliably-sourced references). -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 15:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I think the case is that David Hoyle has the misfortube to speak the same language as you, while living on the other side of the Atlantic.

Queen I may be, but I've edited many articles about people in England, Australia, and elsewhere, and even been interviewed for an Australian magazine! However, all Wikipedia biographies of people follow the same standard:

A person is presumed to be notable if they have received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject.

Read through WP:N, and if Mr. Hoyle meets the standards, I'll even help you work on the article! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 23:35, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

It is difficult to reference a performance artist with little recorded and commercially distributed, which is why his entry has been so dependent on his tv shows and appearance in "Velvet Goldmine." I am awaiting a copy of a U.K. national magazine [Attitude], with a 2006 interview with David Hoyle, and also discovered that as "The Divine David", he is already referenced in the "Drag Queen" entry [1] Interestingly, the discussion page on Drag exposed the degree of national prejudice in this subject. This artist's first televison series was produced by an U.S. television company, World of Wonder, and is listed on their site. I have replaced the "Tripod" reference with one to the "WOW" site. This series was broadcast nationally in the U.K., 1999-2000, before the huge increase in U.K. television channels and would have reached a relatively large audience for it's timeslot.

His career was relaunched in a two performer show with Justin Bond, a performer with a credible career. The audience for his recent shows are stuffed with people who have their won wikipedia entries and it cannot be long before an absence of a Wikipedia entry for this artist is notable in itself.

Oh and a reference in his inclusion as a subject of study by Tate Modern, London [2][[Victorianaesthete 04:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

As well as the previously mentioned media interviews, the notability of David Hoyle is also evident through:
http://www.timeout.com/london/gay/features/1626.html - Interview in Time Out magazine (London)
http://www.smh.com.au/news/arts-reviews/david-hoyles-sos/2007/02/02/1169919504901.html - Interview in Sydney Morning Herald
http://www.mattlippiatt.co.uk/David%20Hoyle.htm - Interview in Flux magazine (Transcription and scan of)
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0398374/ - Actor entry on IMDB

It is perhaps more notable that the same user who previously deleted this David Hoyle entry (by 'undoing' the page back to a solitary re-direct for politition David W. Hoyle) has now put the page up for permanent deletion. SatyrTN appears to have specific interest in the politition David W. Hoyle (shown by his/her large number of edits made to that page) and therefore ensuring there's only one person called David Hoyle referenced on Wikipedia would seem to be the objective of this proposed deletion, rather than trying to clean up Wikipedia of truly non-notable entries.

I have clearly indicated to users that there are two notable David Hoyles in the world by including links to the one another at the top of the two pages. So-So Reverso 16:50, 28 October 2007

For the record, I have absolutely no interest in David W. Hoyle - check the revision history and you'll see that I haven't touched that article. I nominated this one for deletion a) because it was in absolutely horrible shape, and b) I didn't believe Hoyle was notable - read those guidelines when you get a chance. And rather than spending half a page ranting at me, you *COULD* be helping to edit articles such as this one and making them better. Perhaps you could find a reliable source (read that when you get a chance, too) that mentions Bond performing with Hoyle? That would be a great addition to the article, in my opinion. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:13, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Why do you think I mentioned Justin Bond - he's American! References here [3] and here [4] Oh, and David Hoyle starts a column this month in Gay Times[5]to quote the editor "There’s never been an artiste like David, who had his own fabulously unique TV shows (inc The Divine David Presents) and is one of our best-loved cabaret performers." No one this side of the Atlantic has been trying to just push a Brit in lipstick. You didn't help revise this entry, you tried to delete it. As i said above, as "The Divine David" this artist was already mentioned in Wikipedia, what checks did you maje to see if he was notable? This has been a crash course in Wikipedia culture for me. Victorianaesthete 23:32, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry that this experience hasn't been better for you. My goal is to make this a better encyclopedia. Part of doing that is making sure random cruft doesn't crop up - and until you helped me figure out who Hoyle was, that's just what it looked like to me. I'm sorry I didn't know automatically who he was and why he was notable - but as you pointed out by saying Hoyle "will become more prominent in the near future", he's not all that well know right now. Thank you for bringing in references and making Hoyle's entry more encyclopedic - I appreciate your efforts and obvious enthusiasm! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 01:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Openly gay

Is it necessary to say that David Hoyle is openly gay? I'd even question whether he would even describe himself as openly gay. The reference takes us to a journalists description of David Hoyle. However, the link to the Duckie page says he is more part of the 'anti-gay' variety. Calindreams (talk) 13:24, 30 September 2008 (UTC)

He may not use that exact terminology but the article starts "Gay performance artist David Hoyle..." which certainly suggest openly gay is accurate. -- Banjeboi 00:52, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

After reading some of his interviews, he does refer to his experiences of growing up gay. Calindreams (talk) 07:44, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

What would be helpful, on a similar vein, would be to add "British" to the lede sentence if that is accurate - I think it is. -- Banjeboi 11:28, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is accurate, although it already says he was born in England. Calindreams (talk) 11:46, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I've spiffed it - he could be born in one place and work in another so clarifying that is helpful. -- Banjeboi 13:11, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I understand. The edit does clarify this well. Calindreams (talk) 13:27, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

At some point, once I've worked out how to reference information, add something about his performance style and the themes he engages with. I've seen him perform on numerous occasions, 3 times as The Divine David and once as David Hoyle. There are interviews and performance reviews which may prove to be reliable sources, but I will need a little time and some help from more seasoned Wikipedians. Calindreams (talk)

Happy to help. As a suggestion you may want to look at other biographies to get some ideas. With all people I find it's better to skip the lede (top section) and focus on building up an overview of the life including why they were notable. No rush just aim for quality as best you can and others will help correct style issues as needed. -- Banjeboi 13:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

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