Talk:Daniel Martins (Portuguese footballer)

Requested move 29 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. There is no consensus for the proposed move after two relistings. Station1 (talk) 00:03, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

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Daniel Martins (Portuguese footballer) → Daniel Martins (footballer, born 1993) – It is standard to disambiguate by year of birth, and not nationality (which is a social construct). MonFrontieres (talk) 15:17, 29 September 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. —Nnadigoodluck███ 00:05, 29 October 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. Heart ^(talk) 05:14, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 17:21, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 11:49, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom. GiantSnowman 11:51, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
• Support per standard disambiguation style RedPatchBoy (talk) 22:38, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Nationality is a standard disambiguator per Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople)#Association football (soccer) and, in line with the recognizability criterion of Wikipedia:Article titles, is more likely to be known by searchers. DrKay (talk) 12:59, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Wrong, standard disambiguation for footballers is year of birth, as you have been told before. GiantSnowman 11:36, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

No, it isn't, as you've been told before and as I've shown above through the links to both the policy page and the relevant guideline, and in other discussions to the other relevant guideline at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people)#Disambiguating: "Years of birth and death are not normally used as disambiguators (readers are more likely to be seeking this information than to already know it)". DrKay (talk) 11:52, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it is, as shown by the vast number of footballer articles that are disambiguated by year of birth! Indeed Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople)#Association football (soccer) says "If there are multiple footballers with the same name, use the most conclusive of the following steps: [...] If the footballers were born in different years, use the year they were born". In the vast majority of cases YOB is the most conclusive. Stop mis-quoting guidelines to try and get your own way. GiantSnowman 13:52, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople)#Association football (soccer) also says "If the footballers have different nationalities, use their nationality in the disambiguation." I'm not mis-quoting guidelines. I think your ad hominem personal attack is unjust and uncivil. DrKay (talk) 14:03, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

You fail to understand - for whatever reason - what there are multiple ways suggested at that page about how to name, but that in practice one (year of birth) is preferred. GiantSnowman 18:09, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

I don't misunderstand at all, as is clear from my comments. A continued ad hominem personal attack is still an ad hominem personal attack. DrKay (talk) 19:22, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Please point me in the direction of my personal attacks? GiantSnowman 19:39, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

• Comment That guideline is very confusing. Why say "most conclusive", but then in the same sentence say "steps", implying that there is a sequence to be followed? The logic seems to be that, rather than just picking YOB to start with, you begin with nationality, and only if both are from the same country, then proceed to YOB.-- P-K3 (talk) 19:58, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the numbers aren't order of preference in the slightest. GiantSnowman 20:26, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per DrKay. If project participants want to override existing policy so birth years are preferred disambiguation for footballers, there needs to be a central discussion. --BDD (talk) 17:08, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

@BDD: and where does it say that nationality is the preferred disambiguation for footballers? GiantSnowman 21:20, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

WP:NCPDAB of course! The guidelines for footballers are a logical subset of that. --BDD (talk) 21:42, 29 October 2020 (UTC)

Nope, the naming conventions are at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople)#Association football (soccer). GiantSnowman 19:38, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Unless we're asserting that footballers aren't people, the broader guidance applies too, just as much as WP:AT would. I see no reason to prefer a title supported by one guideline and against another vs. one compliant with both. --BDD (talk) 13:50, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Further to my above comment, my reading of [[Wikipedia:Naming conventions (sportspeople)#Association football (soccer) is that birth years should only be used to disambiguate if nationality is not conclusive. That's not the case here.-- P-K3 (talk) 18:16, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Incorrect; YOB is the most common/preferred method of disambiguation, given that nationality is fluid in footballers. GiantSnowman 23:00, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.