Talk:Blue and White (political alliance)

Ideology, Position

Sigh. Let's reach a consensus once and for all. Personally I'm not going to get involved with the economic liberalism/social liberalism back and forth. In regards to the rest:

• Centrism is not an ideology. Its a position on the political spectrum
• I'm ok with center or center left for yesh atid. But I'd push for Telem to be "right". They are to the right of likud
• you can't link "centre" or any of the others to a Wikipedia page which tells us what some view center as. especially if the page doesn't mention Israel. how is that not OR?

Discuss Hydromania (talk) 02:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC) Note also that those articles speak more about big or small government, established traditions, and economic policy. Center left and right in Israel is usually though of in terms of national security terms. Hydromania (talk) 02:04, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I added "centre-left to centre-right" as political position. I also think that the links about economic positions should be clarified as "social liberalism" can be easily confused with "socially liberal", especially when "economic liberalism" is also listed. M . M 22:47, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I think that once this party releases a platform/manifesto (they say it will happen in around two weeks?) we will have an easier time determining what their ideology and economic position is. We should wait for that to come out before deciding anything of that sort. For now IMO we should leave the current ideological arrangement, with both Social and Economic Liberal factions being represented. Gibzit (talk) 18:17, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Telem by itself could be a center-right party, but the alliance as a whole is a centrist faction (leaning toward the left). Analysts have them firmly allied with the Knesset's left-leaning/dovish bloc. The Jewish Telegraphic Agency has them as center-left. "Center to center-left" would be an accurate description, perhaps with a caveat for a center-right minority (Telem).

I also partially agree with Hydromania. Centrism is not always party's political ideology, but it can be. Many parties are positioned in the center of their national political spectrums but do not necessary commit themselves to centrism ideologically. (See, e.g., Parties and Elections for European parties.) Kadima would definitely be ideologically centrist; less so for Yesh Atid or Kulanu, though they are in the center.

I'm also not sure how much the "big tent" label applies. News reports state that the two leaders generally agree on their worldview and that their disagreements only related to the makeup of the electoral list. The Israel Democracy Institute states it is a Zionist Liberal party.

--Precision123 (talk) 22:41, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

The party's platform has been released [2], but I haven't seen any links to the document itself yet. David O. Johnson (talk) 23:57, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm all for center left for the party, I just think telem should be marked as right. Regarding big tent, multiple RS refer to them as something similar, eg

The slate includes trade union leaders along with capitalist free-marketeers; staunch believers in the two-state solution and those who oppose any concession to the Palestinians; militant secularists mingle with religious-Zionists candidates. The only thing that brings them together is a burning desire to end Netanyahu’s rule. That is why they joined forces and what is keeping them together.

Haaretz Hydromania (talk) 00:53, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Any objections to changing Telem's position to right? (in the table, not the infobox) Hydromania (talk) 01:23, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much for the Haaretz source for the big tent label. I agree.

Where is Telem listed as right? I've seen it as center-right so I would list it as that.

The Israel Democracy Institute's parties and election database is a very reliable source and I don't see any issue with the simple "Liberalism" in the infobox as that is the dominant ideology. --Precision123 (talk) 06:28, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Right: Haaretz "Telem is a party of right-wingers who have fallen out with Benjamin Netanyahu", al-monitor "It includes clear right-wingers like Moshe Ya’alon...Zvi Hauser...and Yoaz Hendel", Israel Policy Forum "Hosen Leyisrael appears to to be very much a right-wing party revisionist party with social justice elements....Yaalon’s political view regarding the Palestinians and Israel’s security can be categorized as right-wing", Axios "The "Telem" party, led by former minister of Defense and IDF chief of staff Moshe "Bogie" Yaalon, which has right-wing views, especially on the Palestinian issue.", Jstreet "As an avowed opponent of the two-state solution, Ya’alon is the clear right-winger of the group". You could probably find sources that use the terms center or center-right, but I think the logic these sources use 'opposes two state solution and is more hawkish than Netanyahu' tips the scales. Bonus: Yisrael Beytenu leader Avigdor Liberman "I don’t know why Ya’alon is considered right-wing." Hydromania (talk) 07:15, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

I'd still like to see some sort of representation for their positions in the ideology part. Either Centrism, Liberalism or a factions part with Social+Economic (and maybe+National) liberalism should be added, we should really decide on which one is best and implement it, because right now if you don't scroll down to the make-up part it is unclear.

Personally I'd be in favor of a factions part which would include the ideologies that are listed in the composition section, this reflects the big-tent nature of the list well and if we were able to put the ideologies in the composition section, why can't we put it in the ideology section too? Gibzit (talk) 20:36, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

Does anyone have a source describing Telem as centre-right? If yes, we need to change this article's infobox; if no, we need to remove this unsourced claim from both articles. M . M 10:18, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

@VwM.Mwv: have you read this talk page? Gibzit gave a source for centre right and I gave a few for right.Hydromania (talk) 01:42, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Aside from the fact that it is allied with Israel Resilience and Yesh Atid, and that J Street includes Telem within the left-leaning bloc (though I understand this does not strictly take ideology into account but also politics), I would be comfortable with leaving it as center-right. The JTA/Times of Israel have referred to it as such, as has analyst Jeremy Saltan of Jeremy's Knesset Insider.

As for ideology, the Israel Democracy Institute's database on parties and elections is very reliable. For the infobox ideology, I would do as follows:

Ideology:

Big tent

Generally:

Liberalism

Internal factions: ...

--Precision123 (talk) 21:22, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

References

works for me, though I'd drop the "generally" as it's self evident.

seems I'm outvoted on the right vs centre right.

@Bellezzasolo: please switch the ref you added to one of the English ones on this page. It's the English wikipedia. Hydromania (talk) 21:49, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

• The infobox political position is being edited back-and-forth several times a day (even though I stopped touching it long ago). It has included "big tent" ideology for quite a while now; can't we just settle with "centre-left to centre-right" as position per the sources above? M . M 13:27, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
  • I think centre-right to centre-left is a bit of an odd statement to make, hence why I would prefer to leave it as simply "centrist". Another example of why this field will hopefully be removed from party infoboxes though. Number 57 13:33, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
    • Scroll up and read the page. Centre to centre left is what the (majority of) RS use. There were refs in the infobox sourcing both statements. Why don't you bring a few sources for "centre right"? Maybe we'll agree with you. Telem is right or centre right but the alliance's position is centre left or centre. The "Big Tent" is for their differing ideologies (free market vs union chief etc) Hydromania (talk) 18:09, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
      • Here are some sources describing Blue & White as centre-right:
        1. Pnina Tamano-Shata, who is running in the centre-right Blue and White Party list BBC
        2. But the race became much tighter with the creation of the center-right Blue and White party New York Times
        3. Blue and White, led by former Israel defence forces chief of staff Benny Gantz and former finance minister Yair Lapid, favours centre-right policies Euromoney
        4. That has created a tight race between the Likud-led right wing coalition versus the upstart center-right Blue and White coalition Arutz Sheva
        5. Blue and White is a party that presents a center-right diplomatic agenda Al-Monitor
        6. Netanyahu and his Likud messengers are studiously attaching the stigma to their political rivals including, most ludicrously, former Chief of Staff Benny Gantz and his newly-formed Blue and White party, which would be classified as center-right by any normal standard Haaretz
      • As alluded to in that Haaretz piece, and also in this Jerusalem Post article, it's a big part of the Likud campaign to paint Blue & White as being on the left – Wikipedia should not be party to this. Many sources describe the party differently in different articles; the JTA is mentioned above as describing the alliance as centre-left, yet elsewhere it describes is as simply centrist. Number 57 18:48, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

On a slightly different note, I laid out above why I don't thing centre and centre left should be wikilinked. No one disagreed but Some editors (and ips) keep relinking them. Hydromania (talk) 18:13, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

• Centre-left seems odd when none of the 3 member parties are described as such in their infoboxes.--Jay942942 (talk) 13:19, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Hey, it's 2021 now, all the right leaning members of Blue and White left the party, and it's now basically center-left, I'd recommend changing the political position to center to center-left, it's makes much more sense... Not only that, but also economically and socially the party takes liberal & left-leaning positions... Change BW to "center to center-left" Arjona123 (talk) 14:14, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

There were not any left-leaning members, so this would be absurd. Resilience is listed as centrist, and if you have to place it either side, it would probably be on the right as Gantz claims to be an economic liberal. Number 57 16:11, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

I think it is right to describe Blue and White as a center-left party. Because in Wikipedia, books have priority over media in presenting sources. Blue and White are generally rated as center-left more overwhelmingly than those rated as center-right. --Storm598 (talk) 01:03, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Counter Statement

Umm, I completely disagree with the paragraph above. I would say that that it is center-left to center, because that is how the party described itself, that it wants to be mainly on the centre. I think it’s not party preferences, it literally is the party themselves who say themselves the party is mainly centrist. Euroleader1 (talk) 10:23, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

My bad, the way changes show in mobile, I thought you were trying to remove centre-left completely rather than just change the order. Hydromania (talk) 17:11, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Oh no its ok, I agree with it being centre-left, but I did centre-left to centre because they are going more to a centrist view rather than a left. Euroleader1 (talk) 18:51, 13 March 2019 (UTC)

Ideology/Platform/Policies

I moved the unsourced policy section here. It needs to be sourced and trimmed. (The editor who added the section removed the refimprov tag). Hydromania (talk) 23:02, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Ideological Positions

The party believes in creating strong and stable government by limiting the prime minister to two terms and preventing anyone convicted of a serious crime from being a public official. They believe in a moral government that serves its citizens’ interests, working to return money previously taken by political parties in behind-the-scene deals and using it to reduce the cost of healthcare, education and living. They aim to strengthen national security through developing the country’s strategic capabilities and laying out a diplomatic initiative for peace with the Palestinians. Blue and White is committed to honesty and transparency in all domains. The following policies include examples of various legislative methods to achieve said goals:

Core pluralistic Jewish values

• Make changes in the area of Kashrut supervision to solve the problems that cause public corruption in the food business.
• Establishing family courts as the authority to rule on disagreements regarding civil matters during divorce proceedings and not the rabbinic courts.
• The right of all citizens to marry. According to the party, they see marriage according to Jewish tradition as the ultimate approach for the Jewish nation. but this must be by choice and not through coercion. they plan is to enable all citizens to choose the path that fits their ideology and lifestyle.
• Civil Burial to ensure that each person has the right to burial according to his beliefs and near other family membe

Governmental Corruption

Limit the prime minister to three terms or eight years in order to ensure an open forum and democratic system. Indicted or convicted politicians would be barred from running for public office. Coalitions would be barred from using coalition funds for immoral activities that form an unfair burden on the public. Freedom of press would be a fundamental component and entirely nondependent on the political system and/or economic interests.

Religion and State

The protection of the Jewish identity of the state, as well as the identities of all of the citizens, would be of the upmost importance. Laws regarding the covenant of marriage would be adjusted in order to account for every couple to marry according to their own beliefs. The Western Wall would have to incorporate stronger measures of gender and religious equality between men and women to account for differing methodologies of prayer and practice.

Education

Blue and White seeks to invest massively in early education and kindergarten. Daycare for young children would be entirely subsidized. English and mathematics would be highly prioritized in elementary, middle, and high school to better prepare students for succeeding in today's world.

Health

Approximately 12.5 billion NIS would be invested in healthcare for all Israeli citizens. The closing of hospitals would be fought against, and increase access to medicines throughout the country, including the periphery. Economy: In order to increase Israel's per capita outcome, there would be a shift to a focus on macroeconomics as opposed to shortsighted microeconomic policies that do not properly expound a continual financial growth. Blue and White seeks to encourage Israeli innovation in STEM fields, and to bring in more women and Hassidic Jews to the workplace

Party Color

hello all!,

I noticed that several weeks ago, the color used in the graphs, polls, table charts and the wiki page of the party itself was changed #1A83F2 from to #00D5FF. I personally saw no reason to change it, especially after over seven months of its fixity. I respectfully ask for this matter to be reviewed and for a conclusion regarding this sudden change and the reason for it to be outlined.

Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rh0809 (talk • contribs) 18:35, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

Name

Why is the article name translated unlike other Israeli party articles? It should be renamed Kahol Lavan since all the other ones use transliterations. TheIsraeliSudrian (talk) 18:27, 17 September 2019 (UTC)

It is not the case that all the other ones use transliterations. See Israeli Labor Party, United Torah Judaism, Joint List, Union of Right-Wing Parties, United Arab List etc. Number 57 11:50, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Where does the ›and‹ come from? The name literally translated means ›blue white‹, ›blue and white‹ would be ›כחול ולבן‹. – Sivizius (talk) 14:28, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

It's how the alliance is best known in English. We do not do literal translations. Number 57 14:34, 12 December 2019 (UTC)

Composition

can someone update this please? September 2019 Israeli legislative election — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:6500:A040:2899:52AB:7259:9D7A:CE26 (talk) 21:18, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Breakup of BW to Yesh Atid and Telem as well as Israel Resilience (ILR)

We need to add a section of the breakup, as the party is no longer centrist and big tent, it now is a centre-right party. Also, the defections from both sides when you have a few MK's defecting from Yesh Atid and some ILR MK's defecting to BW. The breakup agreement has already been agreed to — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

References

Slogan

"Israel before all else" translates very poorly. It should be "Israel above all" which is a much better translation Yadinbro (talk) 13:46, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Splitting proposal

I propose that future updates and sections about the party knows as "Blue and White" will be split into Israel Resilience Party with a name change. The content of the current page is about the political alliance of serval parties: Telem, Yesh Atid and Resilience Party, but only one party (Israel Resilience Party) is currently part of the alliance Blue and White. See move request on Israel Resilience Party talk page. Sokuya (talk) 11:37, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Israel Resilience Party which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 12:04, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Party

@Sokuya: do you have a source that Blue and White became a party? --Panam2014 (talk) 17:51, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

@Panam2014: its still a political list but now its composition only from Israel Resilience Party instead of 3 different parties like it used to. Sokuya (talk) 22:02, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Logo situation

Hey all, @Number 57:@David O. Johnson:@Braganza:@Sokuya:

I was watching a speech by Benny Gantz which he made in the B & W faction room. I noticed that in the background, which usually has the party logo in it, the older logo of B & W (with the paint streak) is used. I am now throughly confused as to which logo the party utilizes. Is it the new one from the most recent election or did the party revert back to its previous logo. The situation where the old logo was utilized intensifies my confusion because it is within a very formal and official setting, being in the faction's room in the Knesset.

Your thoughts?

best, Rh0809 (talk) 10:35, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

The whole situation seems to be a bit of a mess. Panam2014 and I were having a related discussion at Talk:Israel Resilience Party#Blue and White on what the difference is now between Blue & White and the Resilience party... Number 57 15:04, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Possibly they just used existing materials they had for the press conference. In their recent posts on Facebook they are using the current logo that is already in the infobox. Sokuya (talk) 20:55, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Kahol Lavan Hatikva Hadasha.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:08, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Still Exist?

Does this alliance still exist? It seems a bit odd that an alliance, of only one party, is also in an alliance? ValenciaThunderbolt (talk) 13:35, 21 July 2023 (UTC)