Talk:Antun Vrančić

Expansion

I expanded the article, but relied on sources instead of the Croatian Wikipedia article. The article as it stands now is therefore not a translation, and it is rather dissimilar to its Croatian counterpart. Could still be expanded, of course. GregorB (talk) 16:46, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Renaming and other changes

Senofonte, a couple of problems, and a couple of questions:

1. You've renamed the article, giving the reason "it's the correct name". Unfortunately, this statement is almost meaningless. A quote from: WP:COMMONNAME: Wikipedia generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit criteria such as recognizability and naturalness. Can you demonstrate that the new name is actually the most prevalent one in reliable English-language sources?
2. In your changes, you removed "Croat" without explanation, although it was sourced, and added "Venetian", using the exact same source. Can you quote what exactly Setton says regarding the subject's nationality on page 921 of his book?

If the answer to the above questions is "no", I'll revert the corresponding changes to the article. GregorB (talk) 19:09, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The first edits by this user were the unexplained page move and apparently a censoring of the earlier name from the lead section. That's usually a clear sign of WP:NOTHERE. A move to "Antonio Veranzio" could have merit, but not this hodgepodge. I'm issuing a WP:ARBMAC warning. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 15:19, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Vrancic was an ethnic Croat.

Sibenik was under Venetian rule. 198.251.52.155 (talk) 11:49, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Antonio Veranzio

The raw Google Books searches are:

• https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Antun+Vrancic%22+-wiki&tbm=bks&pws=0 - run down to the last page and it's Page 14 of 133 results
• https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Antonio+Veranzio%22+-wiki&tbm=bks&pws=0 - run down to the last page and it's Page 16 of 160 results

When I add the birth year, hoping to get more biographies, the searches are:

• https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Antun+Vrancic%22+1504+-wiki&tbm=bks&pws=0 - run down to the last page and it's Page 13 of 121 results
• https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Antonio+Veranzio%22+1504+-wiki&tbm=bks&pws=0 - run down to the last page and it's Page 4 of 31 results

So it can go either way. A more in-depth review of reliable sources would be preferred. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 23:16, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

20 years as a diplomat at king John Zápolya's royal court in Transylvania?

• Vrančić was born 1504. "Vrančić entered diplomatic service, aged only 26." = in 1530
• "He spent 20 years as a diplomat at king John Zápolya's royal court in Transylvania" = from 1530 to 1550. That could not have been possible, because John Zápolya was King of Hungary (as John I) from 1526 to 1540. 123Steller (talk) 09:29, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

123Steller,

I looked on the subject. In 1530 John Zápolya appointed him as the prépost of Óbuda and as a royal secretary. As well between 1530-1539 he was the deputy of the King. He moved in 1541 into Transylvania, but because of his conflict with George Martinuzzi mostly he traveled fulfilling diplomatic services. In 1549 he joined Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor who appointed him in time to four several titles, positions, etc. The original source - about the "20 years" - I could not access, it would've been helpful to read it...otherwise, if noone has as objection, we should remove it and rewrite this section...(KIENGIR (talk) 21:37, 27 March 2017 (UTC))

You're absolutely right - it was really confusing since his role was not clear and since he switched allegiance between throne pretenders after Zápolya died. Great clarification, thanks! --Bojovnik (talk) 19:42, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Well, then I ask both of you (@123Steller:, @Bojovnik:,

are you agree about the substitution of section A to section B?:

SECTION A: "He spent 20 years as a diplomat at king John Zápolya's royal court in Transylvania.[8][dubious – discuss] In parallel to his diplomatic duties, he held important positions in Catholic Church. Vrančić served as a provost for Buda cathedral."

->

SECTION B: "In 1530 John Zápolya appointed him as the provost of the Buda cathedral and as a royal secretary. As well, between 1530-1539 he was the deputy of the King. In 1541 he moved to Transylvania, but because of his opposition to George Martinuzzi mostly he traveled fulfilling diplomatic services. In 1549 he came over to Ferdinand I who appointed him in time to more positions. In parallel to his diplomatic duties, he held important positions in Catholic Church (the chief dean of Szabolcs County, abbot of Pornó Abbey)."(KIENGIR (talk) 21:31, 28 March 2017 (UTC))

Section B. I'll add a sentence that after Zápolya's death he served his widow (1540-1549), as per here

"Nach dem Tode Szapolyais verblieb er bei dessen Witwe Isabella, verließ dann jedoch nach Differenzen mit Kardinal Martinuzzi den siebenbürgischen Hof und trat in die Dienste König bzw. Kaiser Ferdinands I. (1549)"

Also it seems he came to Transylvania in 1520 because his uncle Ivan Statilić was a bishop there; but he immediately sent him away to study and after finishing his studies he came back to Transylvania.--Bojovnik (talk) 21:43, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Well, then, with your addition it would look like so:

SECTION B: "In 1530 John Zápolya appointed him as the provost of the Buda cathedral and as a royal secretary. Between 1530-1539 he was also the deputy of the King and after his death he remained with his widow, Isabella Jagiellon. In 1541 he moved with her to Transylvania, but he mostly traveled fulfilling diplomatic services because of his disagreement with cardinal Juraj Utješinović's policy of claiming the Hungarian throne for Isabella's and Zápolya's infant son (instead of conceding it to Ferdinand I as per Treaty of Nagyvarad). Cardinal Utješinović, appointed as a guardian of his son by Zápolya, fought against Ferdinand and allied himself with the Ottoman Empire. In 1549 Vrančić entered Ferdinand I's service. In parallel to his diplomatic duties, he held important positions in Catholic Church (the chief dean of Szabolcs County, abbot of Pornó Abbey)."

Steller, we are awaiting also for your approval. The remaing details of other sections we may update as well.(KIENGIR (talk) 22:10, 28 March 2017 (UTC))

I did some minor changes...also, do you have a source for his being Zápolya's deputy? --Bojovnik (talk) 03:03, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

@KIENGIR: I have no objections to your rephrasing, I am not an expert in this field. I just pointed out the apparent problem with the years. 123Steller (talk) 08:43, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your notice, Steller. Bojovnik, yes, i.e. here: .(KIENGIR (talk) 12:01, 29 March 2017 (UTC))

References

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Antonio Veranzio

He was italian,not croatian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.21.27.148 (talk) 19:25, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

You are very wrong. In one of his diplomatic letters to a Bosnian sanjak-beg, he literaly identified himself as a Croat. Walter9 (talk) 23:27, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Why was this deleted?

I added this

The Vrančić family, whose family name was originally recorded as Wranychyth, originates in Bosnia, where the family was ennobled by Magyar King Louis I of Hungary (reign: 1342-70). Following the Ottoman conquest of Bosnia, the family suffered terribly and only Ivanac (Ivan, John) Wranychyth and his wife and children escaped. The family first moved westward into Croatia but, even there, the Ottoman attacks continued. The family eventually traveled south to Dalmatia and settled in Šibenik, a city of the Republic of Venice, where Ivanac bought a house and, by his noble status, was admitted into the patrician order of Šibenik. Later, the family name was changed to Wranchyth, then to the Venetian-sounding Veranchythra, then Veranchyth, and to the Latin Verancius or Verantius.

OrionNimrod deleted my addition claiming "strange grammar, sources, factual errors (example Louis reign))"

1. Why is the grammar strange? Grammarly gives a score of 89.

- criticizing my grammar is comical considering the inconsistencies of the entire article.

2. What is wrong with the sources? They are all legitimate. 3. What are the factual errors?

- OrionNimrod claims that the date of reign of King Louis I of Hungary is wrong.  Yes there was a small error but that can easily be fixed rather than the entire article deleted. 

This was my first attempt at adding to Wikipedia and receiving such a welcoming is rather disappointing. ZidarZ (talk) 01:06, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

References