Talk:Antifa (United States)

Pacific Beach Events

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Is the Pacific Beach "antifa trial" being covered anywhere on Wikipedia?

So many sources: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/03/17/san-diego-antifa-trial-also-scrutinizes-right-wing-media-andy-ngo/11482238002/ https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2024/mar/05/stringers-antifa-asks-for-names-of-embedded-cops-in-pacific-beach-violence/ https://www.kpbs.org/news/politics/2024/05/03/two-men-convicted-conspiracy-riot-violent-2021-pacific-beach-protest https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2024/04/02/antifa-trial-pacific-beach-proud-boys-rally/73184411007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2024/05/03/antifa-trial-in-san-diego/73563573007/ https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/story/2024-05-03/antifa-trial-verdict-san-diego https://www.kpbs.org/news/public-safety/2023/11/03/defense-attorney-asks-judge-to-remove-san-diego-district-attorney-from-antifa-conspiracy-case https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im6plFhjC_4 https://fox5sandiego.com/news/local-news/trial-begins-for-two-men-allegedly-involved-in-pacific-beach-protest-that-turned-violent/ https://www.courthousenews.com/jury-begins-deliberations-in-san-diego-antifa-conspiracy-case/ https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/story/2023-11-17/san-diego-district-attorney-stephans-antifa-conspiracy-disqualification-ruling Kire1975 (talk) 03:42, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Hopefully not. Wikipedia isn't a news site. Simonm223 (talk) 16:31, 7 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. We can cover it after the buzz dies down a bit. Professor Penguino (talk) 05:52, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

how is that fair tho? It's an actual event that is happening 213.233.85.208 (talk) 22:15, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I said this back in May, it's June now. Has the content been added in the meantime? Professor Penguino (talk) 03:01, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extremist organization

Antifa should have extremist in their description They took part in many violent atacks,from normal assaults to assaults with deadly weapons (the "bike lock incident") 213.233.85.208 (talk) 22:17, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

You seem to be making a claim based on original research. It would be more compelling if you could point to reliable sources that use the terminology. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 22:43, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

https://www.berkeleyside.org/2018/08/08/eric-clanton-takes-3-year-probation-deal-in-berkeley-rally-bike-lock-assault-case

https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/professor-charged-berkeley-trump-protest-assault/ (a trusted wikipedia source btw)

youtube video linked by cbs news

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qKCl9NL1Cg&ab_channel=SHUTTERSHOT (the incident in question WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT AHEAD)

should i provide more data on antifa's violent activities? 78.96.206.170 (talk) 09:24, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Not interested in the YouTube as it's not an RS or someone random person's label, neither of the reliable sources mention Antifa, and believe it or not, you can be a violent anti-fascist and have nothing to do with Antifa. And of course one person's actions can't label everyone in a movement, that would be like calling the old civil rights movement because one person, or even a number of people, were very violent. Doug Weller talk 10:01, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I just looked at your posts at Talk:White pride. Looks like you are on a bit of a mission. You seem to also be the IP who started that complaint. Doug Weller talk 10:06, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

if you see any bias on my arguments please notify me of them so i can further learn from my mistakes

maybe i did a mistake when asking for a definition before stating its use by extremists groups but i didnt intend to justify discrimination in any way shape or form 78.96.206.170 (talk) 12:52, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

It's just as disingenuous however to omit violence that can be attributed to antifa. I agree the extremist prefix is a needed addition. The ADL sources already highlight that antifa violence is significant enough to be mentioned. Just because some antifa don't use violence doesn't mean the instances they do need exclusion from the article - harking back to the other discussion of a no true Scotsman fallacy, you know, the one where the editor lead the reader to the conclusion that violent antifa is not actually antifa. HoadRog (talk) 05:49, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

"Last year, police searched Clanton’s apartment and seized flags, pamphlets and other paraphernalia associated with Antifa and anarchist movements. He was arrested following the search, Berkleyside.com reported."

https://www.foxnews.com/us/ex-professor-accused-of-hitting-trump-supporters-with-bike-lock-at-free-speech-rally-in-berkeley-gets-probation.amp

His association with antifa is corroborated here. It's a high profile case. His use of Black bloc tactics and violence is also evidence of his affiliation with antifa. Neglecting to mention this high profile incident would be a serious issue for the writers & readers.

I would also add absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. antifa violence and black bloc in general is to make identification hard, so repeat violence is easier and consequence-free. HoadRog (talk) 06:17, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Was it "high profile"? Maybe on right wing social media, but not outside of that. Reliable sources have mostly ignored that one event, six years ago. If reliable sources treat that one event as a specific example of why antifa is "extremist", then propose those sources. One brief news article which barely even mentions antifa and says nothing about antifa's ideology or politics is useless. Your WP:OR about black block is also useless. Grayfell (talk) 06:37, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

That reply and source were specifically to highlight Eric clanton as both a political violence user and antifa member, as a pertinent example of antifa violence that editors have argued doesn't exist or is insignificant. You talked past that.

Honestly I am losing a lot of respect for a cabal that charades itself as an unbiased encyclopedia. I don't know why Ideological bias on Wikipedia and Media bias in the United States that is well documented both anecdotally and academically is coincidentally ignored when it comes to writing contemporary articles. Editors generally don't turn over stones they think will challenge their confirmation bias. I advise you not to reply to this second paragraph to prevent derailing and further strawmanning and deflecting.

https://www.csis.org/blogs/examining-extremism/examining-extremism-antifa

Extremist antifa exists

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2017/05/29/a-man-clobbered-trump-supporters-with-a-bike-lock-the-internet-went-looking-for-him/

WaPo covering the attacks

https://www.foxnews.com/us/ex-professor-accused-of-hitting-trump-supporters-with-bike-lock-at-free-speech-rally-in-berkeley-gets-probation.amp

Fox covering the attacks

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/sanfrancisco/news/professor-charged-berkeley-trump-protest-assault/

CBS covering the attacks

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/26/eric-clanton-former-calif-professor-arrested-in-vi/

Another source covering the attacks

https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Eric-Clanton-takes-3-year-probation-deal-in-13142123.php

California based news site covering the attacks and also verbatim says the assault(s) "drew widespread attention" so that quip about it being a big deal only on "right wing social media" is moot and kind of speaks to a potential lack of wanting to do sub-superficial research. HoadRog (talk) 07:42, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

I also think that source 5 also mentions that some antifa members do take violent actions, cited sources back my claim here 78.96.206.170 (talk) 07:59, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

They don't care. There's a narrative the editors are playing into. You can't change the article to be unbiased but you are welcome to try and make an edit request through the proper channels. If you are up for it, you can submit a new article covering the bike lock attacks. HoadRog (talk) 23:22, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

The lead says "Antifa political activism includes non-violent methods like involving poster and flyer campaigns, mutual aid, speeches, protest marches, and community organizing. Some who identify as antifa also use tactics involving digital activism, doxing, harassment, physical violence, and property damage."

What parts of that do you think are not true?

Your sources are also pretty old. The Eric Clanton one is from 2017, one individual anti-fascist person out of many thousands, Antifa has no members, the sources don't say he is even an Antifa supporter so far as I can see, just an anti-fascist. Even the right wing Washington Times says "went viral in the days following clashes between Trump supporters and so-called anti-fascists."

Our MAGA article doesn't even mention violence - but there are a lot of sources out there that show it is often violent. Do you think there's no violence involving MAGA supporters? Doug Weller talk 09:43, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

So the lead supports the content and could use a tweek, seems to be what everyone is talking aboit so thsgs a nothing.

Old sources is a cop out and meaningless here, thats also about the age of most of the sources since Antifa kind of pettered out.

No true Scotsman is another tired argument, they have no members, everyone is a member, only a member if self identified, only a member of RS say very specific things, only if the RS says it and the person and their mother agrees, and so what worming around the point. But only if it's negatove.

Finally the broader article doesn't mention it but the article dedicated to the thing probably shoild. Again that is just an OtherStuff argument and means nothing for the content that should be here. PackMecEng (talk) 13:55, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

@PackMecEng So we don't need sources to show someone supports Antifa and isn't just an anti-fascist? Doug Weller talk 14:40, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Who said that? The issue is your interpretation of sources. PackMecEng (talk) 19:44, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

This is often discussed if you look at the history of this specific article, but it perfectly illustrates the horrible left wing bias Wikipedia suffers from. Articles about politics from like 2015-now are the worse in my personal opinion. The issue is that the allowed sources on this site are voted on and they usually most any left leaning tabloid (stuff like Salon or Mother Jones or Daily Beast) while not even mainstream right wing publications, like Fox News. What this means is that most things get defined on here through a heavy left wing lenses and this article is a perfect example. Its just a naked propaganda puff piece for Antifa by describing them as moderate left wingers and erasing all negative press about them. Its not uncommon to find editors self identifying with this organization as well. I dont expect much change other than Wikipedia will lose more and more credibility, what little it has left. Friedbyrd (talk) 22:16, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Question about bias from sources

I’m new to the rules here, so I wanted to ask a question. Mark Bray is cited quite a few times in this article, but he clearly displays bias towards the movement. However, the source is quite comprehensive. My question would be does this constitute a conflict of interest or would his bias be irrelevant to the information he has provided about the movement? SuperSodiumalreadytaken (talk) 04:43, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

There is no conflict of interest, but there may be a bias due to his political leanings. If you think any of the sentences citing Bray's work may be affected by his own support for anti-fascism, make a case for it here. Yue🌙 05:52, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Antifa Nazi?

Ridiculous. Author is Paul Gottfried editor in chief of Chronicles (magazine) :Chronicles has had close ties to the neo-Confederate movement. The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) said in 2017 that Chronicles "caters to the more intellectual wing of the white nationalist movement".Chronicles has had close ties to the neo-Confederate movement. The Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) said in 2017 that Chronicles "caters to the more intellectual wing of the white nationalist movement". Read for instance [1] - dated to probably when he was writing his book. @3Kingdoms: please follow WP:BRD Doug Weller talk 07:24, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree. TFD (talk) 09:03, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Book was published by Cornell University Press, meaning it went through academic peer-review Gottfried is considered an expert on Fascism and his book was endorsed by a Stanley G. Payne the leading historian of fascism alive today. From the reliable sources page:

“ When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources”

I made clear in the post that this was only to show Gottfried’s views as opposed to wikivoice.

For reference Gottfried’s book can be accessed via jstor [2] 3Kingdoms (talk) 13:34, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I see no reason why this can't be included. It is an alternative viewpoint from a well-known historian and scholar. The mere fact that he edits an obscure (to me at least) conservative magazine does not preclude his expertise, especially when it's explicitly marked as an alternative viewpoint/criticism by the author of the quote. Just10A (talk) 13:45, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

White nationalists are now "alternative viewpoints'? Acroterion (talk) 14:03, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

The author is Jewish lol. I have no opinion on his views, but he clearly is both prominent and a scholar. Just10A (talk) 14:11, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

That changes nothing. Read WP:FRINGE. Acroterion (talk) 14:18, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Except its not fringe. It's language is broadly similar to other quotes already in the section. The notion that the ANTIFA movement can be counterproductive or ironic is widely discussed by both scholars and layman alike. Just10A (talk) 14:33, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Still fringe. See Nouvelle École which he edits. "William H. Tucker and Bruce Lincoln described Nouvelle École as the "French version of the Mankind Quarterly", a scientific-racist journal published in Northern Ireland. Historian James G. Shields described it as the equivalent of the German scientific-racist journal Neue Anthropologie." Doug Weller talk 16:10, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

That doesn't make the content of the quote fringe. These are completely unrelated subjects to ANTIFA dialogue and the quote. If James Watson makes a statement about DNA, the fact that he has connections to other fringe theories doesn't make DNA a fringe theory. By this same logic, the Noam Chomsky quote that is critical of ANTIFA should equally be removed for his biases. I think we can agree that would be ridiculous. You are not addressing the content of the paragraph at all, which again, is not a fringe theory and The notion that the ANTIFA movement can be counterproductive or ironic is widely discussed by both scholars and layman alike, including the same section of this wiki page. Just10A (talk) 16:27, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I feel the point is, that “Anti-fascism” was published by a university press, again one of the highest marks for a reliable source. With previous works such as “The Strange Death of Marxism” & “Fascism career of a concept” I feel Gottfried’s has enough credentials to warrant including his views. Regarding his associations it is worth pointing out that James A Gregor also associated with certain fringe groups, but was still considered an expert on fascism.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 3Kingdoms (talk • contribs) 13:04, September 6, 2024 (UTC)

Jews aren't white? Odd, the ones I know are. Doug Weller talk 16:10, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Me too. It's almost as if many white nationalists don't consider Jews to be white and the movement has a clear history of connections to antisemitism. Just10A (talk) 16:29, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Would removing the block quote work as a compromise? I was on the fence about including it but decided to go forward to see other’s thoughts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 3Kingdoms (talk • contribs) 13:04, September 6, 2024 (UTC)

Please remember to always sign your comments with four ~ symbols, so we know who we're talking to. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

The quote is from a borderline fringe figure, is written in vague and inflammatory language, is making a fringe and contrarian claim, and was cherry-picked from the middle of a chapter without any surrounding context. The formatting is irrelevant to this discussion. Nothing about this is due. Grayfell (talk) 18:26, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for not signing. I do not agree about the supposed lack on context. Gottfried is simply making the contention that "Antifa" has little in common with historical left-wing ideologies and in his opinion its actions (not beliefs) bare some resemblance to National Socialism. Agree or disagree (I have a few disagreements with the charge), but it comes from someone with expert knowledge and published in a peer-reviewed university press. 3Kingdoms (talk) 20:44, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

@3Kingdoms Perhaps "contextualizing" the statement would make it more suitable. That should sufficiently help. Just10A (talk) 20:22, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I would be happy to do so.3Kingdoms (talk) 20:46, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

The quote says far, far more about Gottfried's fringe worldview than it does about antifa in the US. In this article, the quote seems arbitrarily selected and inflammatory. Context cannot fix that, unless this context comes from an independent source. That any particular far-right (pseudo-)academic holds a negative view of antifa is boring and uninformative. Of course he does, and who cares? Framing it as an 'alternative viewpoint' seems like false balance at best and euphemistic at worst. Including this specific quote in the article would imply that this specific opinion is somehow encyclopedically important, but as editors we cannot explain why it's important, and neither does the primary source for the quote itself- because it isn't important. Grayfell (talk) 20:57, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Your position seems to be based upon thinking that the position of the ANTIFA movement being at times counterproductive or ironic b/c it adopts similar strategies as the groups it seems to oppose is a "fringe theory," but that is simply not the case.

The conversation over antifa's violence and its irony has been at the forefront of the dialogue surrounding it almost since inception, and any cursory research supports that. Mainstream, not fringe, conservatives and moderates have referenced it numerous times in the political dialogue, and yes, many have even gone so far as to compare them to other historical groups. I could go on a citation spree, but I really don't think that's necessary since it's even alluded to in the current wiki article right now. Just10A (talk) 21:11, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

I do not really understand your point since it could easily be applied to the mostly left-leaning figures already there. Bray's book is called "Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook" of course he would hold a positive position of Antifa. Furthermore Bray's book was not published by a university press (nothing inherently wrong with that), but again Gottfried's book went through peer-review before publication. If you object to the quote itself I am fine with it being removed and instead just having: "Historian Paul Gottfried found Antifa to have little in common with historical anarchism or Marxist-Leninism saying its "It bends whatever leftist cause is ascendant and treats whoever opposes it as fascist. " He attributed conservative labeling of the movement as a form of Marxism to "partisan opportunism, historical ignorance, or possibly both" with Antifa being too "irrational and nihilistic" for Marxism." Would something like this work?3Kingdoms (talk) 22:07, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

@Just10A Ok, AGF is not a suicide pact and I am have to say that your edit history pretty shows your political position and your comments here. Doug Weller talk 11:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

That's 1.) not true and 2.) an ad-hominem personal attack. Please contribute to the talk page conversation or go elsewhere. Just10A (talk) 13:23, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I said AGF is not a suicide pact. And I believe your edit history supports it. I agree with those who oppose its inclusion, I see no reason to copy their arguments to show I support them. Doug Weller talk 16:34, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

"Assuming good faith (AGF) means assuming that people are not deliberately trying to hurt Wikipedia, even when their actions are harmful. This is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia." Come back when you can read or contribute more. Your rudeness has been completely unwarranted. I have done nothing to you. I see no reason having a dialogue with someone who refuses to substantively contribute. Just10A (talk) 16:42, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Hey Doug, can I ask that you step away from this article for a little while? you seem to have a mission in this talk page, just looking at your history. HoadRog (talk) 08:42, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Given your own history on this talkpage, no. Acroterion (talk) 11:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Since it is an opinion, the main issue isn't reliability, it's weight. In order to establish reliability, we only need to show that Gottlieb actually wrote this. The fact that he wrote it for an academic book rather than posted it on his website does't make it more reliable.

In order to present the opinion we first have to establish its weight and mention its weight in the article. Is there evidence this text routinely mentioned in subsequent books about antifa?

Also, if we include the text, we need to explain who Gottlieb is. Clearly Gottlieb is a certain type of U.S. conservative which affects how he sees fascism and anti-fascism. We don't want to falsely imply this is a widely accepted view. It's not that jarring to hear that extreme conservatives in the U.S. consider antifa fascist. They consider fascists and the Biden administration to be socialists after all.

While Payne was a significant fascism scholar, he has not published any academic writing lately and therefore we cannot assume that his support of the book means anything. Recently for example, he broke with the other main fascism scholars to declare that Trump was a fascist, reversing his previous stance. TFD (talk) 02:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Where did Payne call Trump a fascist? I think you are referring to Robert Paxton who said Trump was one after January 6. Gottfried does not consider Antifa to be a form of Nazism, but he believes that their methods resemble them. Also I am confused by what you mean by “ we only need to show that Gottlieb actually wrote this. “ I’m not sure what you mean. A letter link to the book is provided in my first post. I see no reason to doubt that he wrote it. 3Kingdoms (talk) 03:43, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Gottfried does not consider Antifa to be a form of Nazism, but he believes that their methods resemble them.

That is a distinction without a difference. Overall I agree with TFD, this is an issue of WP:DUE, and I don't believe we need this in the article, as it gives undue weight to a minority view.

I’m not sure what you mean.

TFD is not arguing that the paper is nonexistent. He's saying that the paper exists (WP:V), but "it exists" does not justify its inclusion in the article. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 12:56, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Since the primary issue people are bringing up seems to be Gottfried personally and his minority views, a better way to add this perspective might be to instead add this Senator Ted Cruz quote [3] in the "members of congress" section. It substantively says a similar thing, but it's pretty clearly applicable and mainstream. Just10A (talk) 13:54, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

That's even more WP:UNDUE, as it's just a politician saying things to whip up his base. Not to mention it's pure nonsense, with statements like asking the Department to open a RICO investigation into Antifa, as if antifa were an actual centralized organization. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 14:10, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

It's undue in the section explicitly labelled "public reactions" under "members of congress?" It's the public reaction of one of the most prominent members of congress in the country. This is WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. Just10A (talk) 14:12, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

There are 100 senators and 435 representatives. We re not obligated to promote fringe views just because a politician said it as a political talking point. Acroterion (talk) 14:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT Part 2. You've shown nothing to suggest the statement is fringe beyond WP:OR. And again, he is one of the more prominent congressman, not one out of 535. This is getting repetitive. You need to provide actual support/sources that state such a position is fringe. You have not done so. Just10A (talk) 14:34, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

On the contrary, the onus is on those who want to include something to show that it does conform with policies and guidelines. You have several people here saying it does not meet DUE, so it's on you to show otherwise. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 15:30, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Due and Fringe are separate. I agree we have the burden on the due point. Vice versa with the fringe point (which hasn't happened). As for Due, it's very simple and has already been explained. It's a section of the article dedicated to members of congress's public reactions to ANTIFA and the quote is one of the most prominent member of congress's public reaction to ANTIFA. It literally is directly on point. I don't even think that's controversial.

Then, the only rebuttal to that quote has been that 1.) it's "fringe," and that has not been substantiated/supported at all yet; or 2.) your (despite not being a lawyer or legally educated at all) legal opinion on the merits of a RICO investigation, which is WP:OR. The quote clearly meets the criteria on the basis that it is a public reaction by a prominent congressman. If it is to be excluded on the grounds of WP:FRINGE the person bringing that assertion needs to substantiate it, not just declare "fringe" with 0 evidence to support it. In that scenario it would just be WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT Just10A (talk) 15:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

"That is a distinction without a difference." I disagree it is common for historians to compare the methods of the Bolsheviks with the Nazis despite their ideological differences. More recently after 2016 there were comparisons to Justice Democrats/DSA and the Tea Party despite their very clear differences. Gottfried is not claiming Antifa are not Nazis, but their alleged "nihilism" warrants comparison. I do not fully agree, but that is beside the point. 3Kingdoms (talk) 18:35, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

3Kingdoms, because it is an opinion, rs requires that the source reliably report the person's stated opinion or accurately presents their words. In this case, there is no question that he actually wrote the book, so rs is not an issue. I pointed this out because I don't think we should argue about whether the source is rs. Instead, the main issue is weight. TFD (talk) 16:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok I think I misunderstood your point. My apologies. However could you clarify your remark about Payne and Trump? I feel on the issue of weight, Gottfried seems warranted since it’s one of the most recent books on anti fascism published by a university press. 3Kingdoms (talk) 17:18, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Recent is irrelevant. Doug Weller talk 17:38, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I would say the exact opposite. Given it went through peer-review by academics this implies it is represents an important contribution in the field of study. 3Kingdoms (talk) 17:42, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

You're trying to insert undue emphasis on a fringe POV espoused by a writer who caters to white nationalist POVs. Unless this particular writer's POV has been covered significantly in other reliable sources, or cited by other reputable academic studies, it's not appropriate for inclusion. And dial back the sniping at other editors. Acroterion (talk) 18:06, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

There has been no sniping at other editors. Please reframe from making such insulations. As mentioned before University Presses are considered some of the highest standards for reliable sources.  3Kingdoms (talk) 18:22, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

":And honestly, this is just another variation on Jonah Goldberg's assertion that the Left are the real fascists, which has been rejected across a broad spectrum of Wikipedia articles for years as a mere talking point. Acroterion (talk) 18:20, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

No, it absolutely is relevant. As the movement matures and we get more strong secondary academic sources on a subject that will tend to replace breaking news articles that might be close to an event. PackMecEng (talk) 18:10, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Gottfried in his book has a whole chapter (Chap 6. 108-123) criticizing Goldberg's assertion and like-minded conservative claims that Fascism=the Left. 3Kingdoms (talk) 18:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:WINARS. @Acroterion Just10A (talk) 19:48, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I didn't cite Wikipedia, I cited longstanding community consensus on this general subject of left-right and fascists alignment. The trope that the Left are actually the fascists has been conclusively rejected by community consensus for the last 20 years. Acroterion (talk) 20:29, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Which no one, including Gottfried, is saying. 3Kingdoms (talk) 20:56, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

“Community consensus” on what website? Just10A (talk) 21:00, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

I read Gottfried's introduction and the first pages up to the quoted text. Gottfried is clear that his views go against the mainstream. Therefore the relevant guideline is Fringe theories. We can mention it provided that there is coverage in secondary sources and we are clear it is a fringe theory.

Gottfried claims that antifa is neither socialist nor anarchist, and draws on support from American big business, the media (including Fox News), the universities and government officials. That, along with its use of street violence, is how it resembles the Nazis. As in Germany, these elites look to antifa to crush legitimate dissent. Ironically, unlike in Germany, the dissenters are anti-Semites, anti-Islamists and opponents of open borders. Most of this btw is in the passage suggested for this article.

We should not summarize people's writings, which requires a degree of judgment, and instead should use reliable secondary sources that do this. Another advantage of secondary sources is that they often explain how acceptable their views are. So even if we include Gottfried's opinions, they should be sourced to a reliable secondary source.

I don't mind saying that the extreme right, or whatever one prefers to call to them, compare antifa to Nazis. But again we would need secondary sources for that and evidence it was due. TFD (talk) 00:04, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the thoughtful response. This source cites Gottfried's book, but I cannot access it at this moment. [Antifa: Anatomy of a Movement | SpringerLink] 3Kingdoms (talk) 00:29, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Try the Internet Archive, where I got full access to the book. TFD (talk) 02:00, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I was able to get to the needed section on google books. Reading the source reinforces my belief that the book is worth mentioning since it has now been established that other sources in the literature have cited it.  3Kingdoms (talk) 03:47, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

The mere existence of independent sources is not a valid justification for citing this book as a primary source. We are looking for context. Look at what a reliable, independent source says about this opinion as a fringe opinion and as that opinion relates to antifa in the US and summarize that source. Grayfell (talk) 05:44, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

A peer-reviewed book being mentioned in other peer-reviewed articles gives strong weight to the inclusion. Given that its use here is not for wikivoice, but to give Gottfried's opinion I see even less reason for opposition. I would also argue Wikipedia:What FRINGE is not applies here. 3Kingdoms (talk) 18:04, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

The article "Antifa: Anatomy of a Movement" cites Gottfried only once, as a source for what another writer (R,R, Reno) wrote about the post-war consensus. One would expect that if Gottfried's book had been influential, there would have been a discussion about his opinions.

The article does mention the claim that George Soros funds antifa and says it is unfounded. But it attributes the claim to Candice Owens rather than Gottfried. TFD (talk) 08:43, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Google Scholar has the book cited in 9 different places, some critical, some positive. It might not be the most, but seems enough to at least warrant mentioning especially since it is not even being used for wikivoice. 3Kingdoms (talk) 18:00, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

You would have to show that these papers listed in google scholar mention Gottfried's views on antifa that you want reported in this article. Bar-on's article for example is about supposed overreaction to fascism and mentions antifa only in passing: "Contemporary anti-fascists such as Antifa fail to [adopt] the traditional Marxist suspicion of the state as an instrument of the ruling class and thus saw few problems with "using the state to suppress allegedly fascist ideas."" (Gottfried, 2021, p. 27) Even then, I could not find this passage in Gottfried's book. TFD (talk) 20:54, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

This all feels rather excessive given what is being argued. What we have is a book that was published by a peer-reviewed university press, one of the highest marks of a reliable source, and has been cited in other peer-reviewed sources. Because of that I have added Gottfried's view of Antifa, not in wikivoice, just what he thinks. The book received a positive review from Stanley G. Payne the leading scholar of fascism today who has also written on anti-fascism. Given all that, some of this comes across as moving the goalpost and "I don't like" I am perfectly willing to remove the quote comparing their methods to the Nazis since that seems to be the main issue, but I see no reason not to include his view that ideologically Antifa has little in common with historical anarchism or Marxist-Leninism. 3Kingdoms (talk) 22:36, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

See Due and undue weight: "Neutrality requires that mainspace articles and pages fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in those sources." Unless reliable sources report his viewpoint on antifa's ideology, it lacks weight for inclusion.

Usually book reviews do not establish the significance of a viewpoint. All books from reputable publishers get reviews.

Also, as I pointed out, reliability is not an issue about whether the viewpoint should be included. Not everyone opinion that can be reliably sourced should be in this article. Alex Jones' opinions for example can be reliably sourced to academics who write about him.

What btw does Payne say in his review? Do you have a link? TFD (talk) 00:00, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Payne's review can be found here Antifascists after Fascism by Stanley G. Payne | Articles | First Things. He also called Gottfried's prior book on fascism "the best book on fascism to appear in a decade or more."

"Unless reliable sources report his viewpoint on antifa's ideology, it lacks weight for inclusion." We may be speaking past each other here. My point is a University Press published work is usually considered a reliable source:

"If available, academic and

peer-reviewed

publications are usually the most reliable sources on topics such as history, medicine, and science.

Editors may also use material from reliable non-academic sources, particularly if it appears in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include:

• University-level textbooks
• Books published by respected publishing houses
• Mainstream (non-fringe) magazines, including specialty ones
• Reputable newspapers"

If you would like to create a discussion on the reliable sources noticeboard, I would be happy to discuss there. 3Kingdoms (talk) 00:42, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

The question at RSN would be: Would a book written by Gottlieb and published by Cornell be a reliable source for his opinions? Since no one questions that, it would be a waste of time. The only issue is whether those opinions have weight for inclusion. TFD (talk) 01:23, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

I notice that Payne says little or nothing about Gottlieb's opinions on U.S. antifa. The article is devoted to mainstream anti-fascism. TFD (talk) 01:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Gottfried’s book mostly covers Antifa in the first chapter before moving on. The article is a review where Payne gives a positive assessment. If we agree this is a reliable source than I feel that it is due with being included, but I think the quote can be removed. Would simply saying that Gottfried believes the group has little in common with anarchism or Marxism be a reasonable compromise? 3Kingdoms (talk) 02:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Don't you think it is an unusual claim that antifa has little in common with communism and anarchism extraordinary? And if we mention that conclusion, shouldn't we explain how Gottfried came to it?

My understanding is that antifa members hold a range of ideologies, but that most of them are left-wing, even if lack understanding of ideology, which I suppose separates them from card-carrying Communists. Do you really think they are just willing agents of capitalist elites? TFD (talk) 04:22, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

BTW I am sorry I confused Payne with Paxton and thank you for pointing that out. But Payne seems to have moved away from the mainstream and his opinions may no longer have the authority they once did. TFD (talk) 04:30, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. No problem about names happens to all of us! I would disagree about Payne. Richard J. Evans still cites him as a leading authority on fascism and he has been mentioned in reliable sources like Vox so I feel he is still mainstream. I disagree slightly with your view of Gottfried. I take his argument is more that capitalism/elite opinion is more friendly to Antifa than them being willing agents. Gottfried believes that Antifa’s focus on racial and social issues is at odds with the more strictly economic view of anarchism and Marxism (many historical Marxist and anarchist held socially conservative views on women and sexuality). Hope that clears it up. 3Kingdoms (talk) 12:26, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Nobody is expecting modern antifa to be identical to some nebulous group of "historical Marxists and anarchists", and noting that "many" historical groups held regressive views is obvious and inane. If you have to sanitize Gottfried's opinions to present them on this talk page, that is a sign that something went wrong. Per your own quote, Gottfried isn't diplomatically saying they were 'at odds' with these groups (modern or historical), he is calling antifa irrational and nihilistic and comparing it to Nazism. Gottfried's opinion needs context. So why, according to reliable sources, is this opinion encyclopedically significant to this topic? Grayfell (talk) 18:50, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Because it was published in a peer-review publication, referenced in other peer-review papers, and received a positive review from the leading historian on fascism today (Payne) 3Kingdoms (talk) 19:39, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Seems reasonable enough given the circumstances brought up. I would support inclusion if it's explicitly qualified as his specific analysis. Just10A (talk) 20:43, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Works for me. That was always my intention l. 3Kingdoms (talk) 21:47, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

That isn't how consensus works. You do not appear to understand what I and others are saying, or you are not engaging with this in good faith.

Being peer-reviewed doesn't legitimize cherry-picking a single, editor-selected opinion from a 200+ page book, nor does it justify misrepresenting the context of that opinion. What are reliable sources saying about Gottfried's opinion, and how does this one opinion reflect the entire topic enough to justify including it at all? This context needs to be clear to readers, not just to us on this talk page. The existence of citations is the first step in this process, it's not the conclusion. Among other things, we also have to deal with WP:PROFRINGE. I'm sure that many of the sources which cite Gottfried also directly dispute his claims or contextualize them as being a fringe and far-right perspective. To use these sources to include this opinion as-is would be misrepresenting what those sources are actually saying.

I still don't see the point of this, either. Including this without a lot more context than is justified would be filler and false balance. In order to include this we need to indicate, via independent sources, why a disinterested reader should care about this. Grayfell (talk) 22:47, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

"I'm sure that many of the sources which cite Gottfried also directly dispute his claims or contextualize them as being a fringe and far-right perspective." Then produce them. Don't just arbitrarily say that and walk away. If so, we will consider it in to the consensus judgment. Take a note from@The Four Deuces and actually engage. Just10A (talk) 23:24, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Silence is not assent, and editors aren't obligated to engage at extreme length, having stated their concerns. I have seen nothing in TFD's very patient analysis to alter my view that you're advocating inclusion of a fringe POV, at extreme length. Editors aren't obligated to match word counts. Acroterion (talk) 23:55, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Correct. I did not say otherwise. But they are required to back up and cite their claims, (using something other than Wikipedia, mind you) instead of just saying, "I'm sure xyz." Just10A (talk) 00:01, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

AFAIK, none of the nine sources that cited Gottfried were concerned with his views on antifa. His book after all was about anti-fascism, which is a view shared by mainstream polticians and media on both the left and right, according to him. Antifa is just a small fringe.

Gottlieb's writing is clear on how today's antifa differs from yesterday's. They are funded by George Soros and protected by the mainstream politicians and their media supporters in the two main parties. They are an "astoturf" group rather than committed revolutionaries. Their objective is to protect American capitalists.

We cannot just say that Gottfried thinks they are different without providing his reasons. But alarm bells go off when someone says that something is secretly funded by George Soros. TFD (talk) 02:33, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Minor quibble, but Gottfried does not say Soros is secretly funding Antifa. On page 25 he says a major "sponsor" of Antifa is the Alliance for Global Justice which in turn collects money from progressive groups like Soros's Open Society.  3Kingdoms (talk) 02:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

I looked up the source mentioned in footnote 27 and it just says, "The coordinated violence raises questions about how Antifa is financed." It then says that the Alliance supports some left-wing groups, without naming antifa. TFD (talk) 12:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

True, although Gottfried also says that more study is probably needed. While a fair point on contention I don't think it invalidates the source especially since, what was added is not about alleged funding. 3Kingdoms (talk) 23:51, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

What's the point of saying that Gottfried says modern antifa has little resemblance to communists and anarchist movements of the past without explaining what he meant? TFD (talk) 12:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Since Gottfried is an historian and Antifa claims the legacy of those groups I think it's worth mentioning his counter that they are not to show differing views 3Kingdoms (talk) 00:20, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Didn't we have a huge discussion about this (with the same editor, specifically, trying to add Gottfried to the article) three years ago? Gottfried is a WP:FRINGE figure and his opinions here have no secondary WP:RS coverage. Obviously he's completely unusable; this has been explained repeatedly. I think that this is well past the WP:DROPTHESTICK point - what has changed since the last time this was discussed? If anything, the continued lack of reliable secondary coverage only reinforces the fact that we made the right call the first time and that his opinions remain fringe. --Aquillion (talk) 08:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

We did. My actions during that debate were very poor, which I regret. I understand limitations of Chronicles as a source so instead of that I am using Gottfried's actual book that was published in a University Press (a high standard for reliable source). I also provided sources that show the book being cited in other peer-reviewed publications (both positive and negative) again a high mark for reliability. On a side note, Gottfried is cited on [[PragerU]] criticizing one of their videos on fascism. There was a discussion on the reliability of Gottfried Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 273 - Wikipedia where it was agreed he was reliable for a discussion of fascism. I felt given the change of time it is worth reexamining since the book in question can be accessed for free on jstor and showing its publication by Cornell. Hope that clears it up. Cheers! 3Kingdoms (talk) 13:17, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Reliability relates to accuracy. Are the facts in the book accurate? That issue is wholly irrelevant if you are using the book as a source for the writer's opinions. In that case the only rs issue is whether the book is a reliable source for the author's opinions.

The main issue is weight. Are these opinions worth reporting?That depends on their degree of coverage in reliable sources about antifa in the U.S.

Should there be any confusion, Palm Beach State College has a useful distinction between facts and opinons:

"A fact is a statement that can be verified It can be proven true or false through objective evidence.

"An opinion is a statement that expresses a feeling, an attitude, a value judgment, or a belief. It is a statement that is neither true nor false. Or it may feel true for some, but false for others." TFD (talk) 12:00, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I would also point out that a lot of Gottfried's views are already presented in the article. TFD (talk) 13:21, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

I would argue that Gottfried's views are due weight. It would not take up a major part of the academics section and Gottfried's writings on the post- war left "The Strange Death of Marxism" and "Antifascism" being published in a university press indicate that his views have some weight/ expertise on the matter.

What views of Gottfried's do you think are already in the article? 3Kingdoms (talk) 23:43, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Should antifa be marked as far-left?

Currently it’s marked as just “left wing” despite it not only including far-left elements such as communism, but also the movements practice of extremist tactics such as rioting and doxxing. The points are listed are from the article itself, but the CSIS also describes the movement as being in the far-left. If anyone has concerns or questions, I’m all ears, but as far as I know, antifa should be marked as far-left on the opening page. LordOfWalruses (talk) 02:09, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

At the top of the page there is a Q1 explaining the reason. The issue has been debated multiple times with overall argument going to just left-wing as opposed to far left. I personally would be fine with saying "left-wing to far left" especially if the CSIS article says so, but at the same time it has been debated so often that I think other users do not want to relitigate the whole thing nor do I blame them. I think you would need more a few more reliable sources using the term "far left" to persuade people. I hope that explains it! 3Kingdoms (talk) 03:16, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

"Far left" means farther left than the writer finds unacceptable. An organization like CSIS is obviously going to find a large segment of the Left to be unacceptable. TFD (talk) 04:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, as discussed on multiple other articles that's not the case as it's a recognised term to refer to many Marxist and anarchist movements, but still – OP will indeed need to refer to the previous RfCs and find new arguments if they want it changed on this article. — Czello ^(music) 07:38, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

If you were right about terminology, then one would expect "far left" academics to describe themselves and people who share their views as such in reliable sources. Can you point to any?

After all, Marxist and anarchist writers actually use those terms. TFD (talk) 12:16, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

What they label themselves doesn't really matter, just as the same as with far-right academics. The use of the phrase doesn't necessarily denote acceptability, just what sits furthest to the left of the political spectrum. — Czello ^(music) 12:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

You just said that the term far left has is a well-defined concept in academics but now make an exception for far left academics. So what do far left academics call themselves?

Incidentally, there are no academics supporting far right positions, because holocaust denial, climate change denial, anti-Semitism, Nazism, the KKK and conspiracy theories cannot be defended in academic sources since they are based on false information and faulty reasoning. TFD (talk) 02:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Also, people you consider far left may use the term far left to describe people further left than themselves. In both cases, the meaning is the Left that goes further than what the writer considers acceptable. But where that line is depends entirely on the writer. TFD (talk) 03:03, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Well, the majority of academics are not far-left (despite what the far-right might say), so concerning ourselves about what they call themselves would be undue weight (and for the purposes of Wikipedia bordering on primary sources). There most certainly have been far-right academics, but equally the things you say can't be defended in academic sources could also apply to the far-left; both political extremes conjure political fantasies. While I would be interested to see what "further left" than communists or anarchists would be (before we start entering horseshoe territory), ultimately the term is pretty unanimously used to describe most Marxist/ML groups and certain anarchist trends. — Czello ^(music) 07:09, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

As I said, the term when used is always relative to the writer and meaningful only in context. For example, the book "History of Socialism" refers to groups that became involved in terrorism and the Gang of Four as "far left." IOW groups that were already outside the Communist mainstream are referred to as far left. But your personal dividing line between acceptable and far left may be different.

Just how far to the left must one be to be considered far left?[4]

Also, it you can find academic papers defending holocaust denial and other far right positions, I would be interested to see them. TFD (talk) 14:23, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

I think a lot of this distracts from the point. Far left is typically seen as the furthest left one can go on the political spectrum (so again, usually applied to communist and anarchist groups). Yes, there will always be people or groups that people will debate over whether or not they fall into the "far-left" category. Exactly the same happens on the far-right. That doesn't mean that far-left doesn't exist or that it's a term solely used to describe views we're uncomfortable with.

Well I feel you've moved the goalposts somewhat by focussing solely on academics who deny the holocaust, but nonetheless Robert Faurisson is a good example. Regardless it's beside the point and getting into the weeds a little bit - "far-left" is still a recognised and used term to describe those furthest left on the political spectrum. — Czello ^(music) 15:15, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

When you say that people will debate [in reliable sources] who falls into the far left category, you are agreeing that the term is relative. If it were not, then fact-checkers would have objected to referring to the Gang of Four as far left, because all Communists are far left.

Faurisson did not deny the holocaust in any academic publications. The relevance of academic publications is that they use fact-checking.

The terminology left and right is not symmetrical. The reason for that is that researchers had to develop terminology to describe right-wing ideologies which was not the case for the left. If as you say, far left means communist or anarchist, why not use the more precise terms of communist or anarchist? OTOH, there are no similar terms to group together the KKK, Proud Boys and the 3 percenters. TFD (talk) 19:38, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Everything in your first paragraph could equally apply to far-right, but no one disputes that exists.

As for the second, as I said making it about only holocaust denial seems arbitrarily narrow (and also beyond the original point).

As for your final paragraph - well, the far left is known for being incredibly factitious. Between MLs, Trots, various anarchist groups that don't agree with one another, and then the more nationalist leftist groups - that's the reason we have a term like "far-left", to represent the fact that they are all on the farthest left of the political spectrum. Also we do have a term to group those organisations you mentioned together, it's "fascist" (just how "communist" can describe both MLs and Trots). We still call them far-right, though, because they're the furthest right on the political spectrum. Ultimately, you're arguing that far-left is a term which is invalid or doesn't exist, which clearly isn't supported by academic reasoning given how often it's used. — Czello ^(music) 21:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

You make interesting arguments but the reality is that there is no body of literature about the "far left." I would appreciate if you could provide me with a source that tells us what groups, political parties, etc. are included and which aren't because basically it depends on the author.

BTW far right is a term that includes but is not restricted to fascism. The KKK for example drew no inspiration from Musst solini.

Although I mentioned holocaust denial, I also mentioned climate change denial, anti-Semitism, Nazism, the KKK and conspiracy theories. Academic sources do not publish far right beliefs because they cannot be defended. They do however publish what you consider far left positions such as universal health care, raising the minimum wage, re-nationalizing railways and land distribution. TFD (talk) 22:19, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

We have a pretty good breath of sources in the body to cover the far-left part Antifa activists' ideologies, as well as their involvement in violent actions against far-right opponents and the police has led some scholars and news media to characterize the movement as far-left and militant. Lots of really good high quality nested sources there. PackMecEng (talk) 22:52, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Much of what you just described in the final part of your comment isn't typically considered far-left. That's fairly standard socdem policies, typically associated with the centre-left. Again, far-left beliefs are, for example, MLs. There's an abundance of examples of the far left being discussed in academia on our article on the subject.

Ultimately, we're beating around the bush here. What matters is that "far-left" isn't some insult that's solely used to describe something undesirable, it's a commonly accepted term to describe most communists and anarchists. — Czello ^(music) 22:57, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

My point was that there is no definition of where far left begins, it's subjective. If you can provide a source for the taxonomy of the Left, it would be greatly appreciated. TFD (talk) 11:35, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

A number of Communist parties support democracy. They aren't far-left. They even govern some states in India. Again, this is a movement - I'm pretty sure not all people who take part in Antifa activities consider themselves far-left. Doug Weller talk 08:43, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

I know, that's why I've been careful to say "most communists". Even still, being far-left isn't inherently anti-democratic.

Nonethless, I'm not suggesting antifa should be labelled as far-left. — Czello ^(music) 14:40, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Antifa activists' ideologies, as well as their involvement in violent actions against far-right opponents and the police has led some scholars and news media to characterize the movement as far-left and militant. That should about cover it. PackMecEng (talk) 00:02, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Instead of providing a lengthy list of sources to back up your claim, which is original research, you should use a source that says what you want to add, viz., that some scholars and news media characterize it as far left. Incidentally, the conclusion you present also violates Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch.

While that may seem onerous, there is no reason to present conclusions unless they appear in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 00:08, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Nope. I presented numerous, high quality, sources backing the claim. No OR is found here. No more moving the goal posts here TFD, not looking to define what is is, we go by RS and this plethora of strong RS say just that. PackMecEng (talk) 01:17, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

IOW you have lots of evidence for your conclusion, so maybe it is good original research. But you need a reliable source that reached the same conclusion you did.

BTW. did you read WP:WEASEL? It mentions, "some people say, many people remember, many scholars state, [etc.]," which is exactly the language you want to use, viz., "some scholars and news media...characterize."

Instead of arguing, just get a reliable source that supports what you want to say. I could explain why these policies exist, but if you don't like them, get them changed. TFD (talk) 03:17, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Did you read the sources I gave? Forget the text from the article it is supporting. Those sources supprt what this section is talking about. I'm not sure you quite understand that. There is no original research here nor is there a lack of reliable sources given. So unless you can give a reason why the sources supplied do not support channging it from left wing to far left there is nothing left to do here but make that change. PackMecEng (talk) 12:09, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

[5]"We spoke to secret Antifa groups in Oregon. They said they come from a variety of political backgrounds but they were united in their opposition to fascism, and they have an anti-government streak." [6] "Mostly, people aligned with antifa are on the left of the political spectrum. " [7]"Antifa, short for "anti-fascist", is a loose affiliation of mostly far-left activists. They include anarchists, but also communists and a few social democrats.+[8]"Most antifa adherents today come from the anarchist movement or from the far left, though since the 2016 presidential election, people with other political backgrounds have also joined their ranks." [9]" Anti-fascists of the movement tend to be grouped on the leftward fringes of the US political spectrum, many describing themselves as socialists, anarchists, communists or anti-capitalists.'"

And then there is the lead of the aritcle:

"Individuals involved in the movement subscribe to a range of left-wing ideologies, and tend to hold anti-authoritarian, anti-capitalist, and anti-state views. A majority of individuals involved are anarchists, communists, and socialists who describe themselves as revolutionaries, and have little allegiance to liberal democracy, although some social democrats also participate in the antifa movement"

So no, we do not have to make that change. Doug Weller talk 14:17, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

So you gave a lot of quotes from the article and sources that support the change, but you say no we do not have to make the change. That makes no sense, especially when stacked against all the RS I provided. Clearly the majority support far left vs just left. Again, not sure the argument you are trying to make, but it seem contradictory to policy. PackMecEng (talk) 16:33, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

My quotes don’t support far-left nor does the lead. How then does policy back you? Doug Weller talk 17:23, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Yup quoted 3 times in your section where they were explicitly far-left by RS and then all the RS I gave, and the quotes from the body that I gave. So yes, they do and yes it does. All from the sources I gave here, the sources in the article, and about half the sources that you gave. PackMecEng (talk) 20:40, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Based on the sources you provided I support adding "far left" to the lede and to political positions. 3Kingdoms (talk) 23:47, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

The sources say that antifa includes people from the far left, not that it is far left. Six out of nine U.S. Supreme Court justices are Catholic. That doesn't mean that it is a Catholic organization. TFD (talk) 01:47, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

but it is enough to say the Supreme Court is largely made up by Catholics. So that works. PackMecEng (talk) 07:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Ideology differs from religion. There is to my mind sufficient evidence that the organization contains a sizeable number of far-leftists to justify saying it is a "Left-to far left group" and to have far left beside left wing on the political positions table. 3Kingdoms (talk) 13:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The text already says, " A majority of individuals involved are anarchists, communists, and socialists."

It's OR to say that because most members come from a specific background that is a defining feature of the group. Antifa membership is not restricted to the far left, nor does it pursue far left objectives. The only possible disagreement would come from someone whose view of the political spectrum places anyone to the left of the Freedom Caucus as far left. TFD (talk) 13:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

The only original reasearch is what you are saying. I dont care what you personally think about them or how the operate. Present RS that say it, which is what we have sone over and over. Also what is this crap about freedom caucus? Are you a member or something? That forsnt make it okay to disregard our sourcing polices and engage in OR like you are doing. PackMecEng (talk) 14:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. My "original research" is that we should only say what is supported by rs and not our own conclusions. TFD (talk) 17:49, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

That is the point, i am presenting RS that back the content we are talking about, you are not. You are only stating your personal views devoid of RS. PackMecEng (talk) 18:52, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

A reasonable reader would get the impression that antifa has a far-left membership and agenda, which is not what the sources say. To far right sources that of course is true because opposition to the far right is by definition far left. But using terms as understood by most people, that's not necessarily true. TFD (talk) 20:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

That is the issue, you are wrong on soucres. Thats why I gave so many that support what I am saying and by my count you have given none. PackMecEng (talk) 21:43, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

In my experience, the reason people provide many sources is that while none of them say what they want to say, they believe that as a whole they do. And that is synthesis. TFD (talk) 22:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Cool, so no sources or anything to back your position. Got it, so no good reason to oppose? PackMecEng (talk) 22:32, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

No, in fact I said there were no sources to back your position. Since you are the one adding the material, it's up to you to provide the source. TFD (talk) 22:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Nope, there are about a dozen above that support it. Against your zero I think its best we collapse this and ignore your objections. I guess you could try RSN or the OR notice board since its not working here. PackMecEng (talk) 23:04, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

This is getting long winded. @PackMecEng, I support adding it since you (and even others) have provided sources.

Also, since SCOTUS was brought up, the reason the "catholic" analogy doesn't work is because SCOTUS is not a religious organization. If it was, then it would definitely be perfectly acceptable to state that it is mostly catholic, or has catholic connections, or etc. In this scenario, we are talking about political leanings of members of a political organization (or quasi-organization), so it is more relevant. Just10A (talk) 23:47, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Where are we adding it? End of the first paragraph, perhaps? — Czello ^(music) 06:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Sources