Open main menu
WikiProject Biography / Musicians (Rated B-class)
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians.

Contents

NationalityEdit

why is it a debate over what nationality he is, he’s not legal in the states or anywhere but england, so he’s british EveryonesFAVORITE*toy (talk) 21:25, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Also legal in Scotland; Wales; and Northern Ireland, the 3 other countries that make up the United Kingdom, along with England. TrailBlzr (talk) 07:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
21 has never publicly identified as being British, which is how we use nationality as a description for other biographies. Nice4What (talk) 22:55, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
This is false. We use the formal legal definition of Nationality on Wikipedia, not how people choose to publicly identify. ForgotMyPW (talk) 23:12, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
This is correct. WP:NATIONALITY states that “The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.” That being said, it wouldn’t be unreasonable to include his time in the US in the lead as well, given how much coverage and attention that it has caused. OhKayeSierra (talk) 23:32, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Why not just stick his birthplace in and leave the rest of the sentence? "Shéyaa Bin Abraham-Joseph (born October 22, 1992 in London, United Kingdom), better known by his stage name 21 Savage, is a rapper, songwriter, and record producer based in Atlanta, Georgia." Black Kite (talk) 00:04, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Birth date and place advises against doing such a thing, and I'd generally agree, it looks a bit much crammed in there. I would lean towards describing him as a British-born rapper, since it appears objectively true. Nohomersryan (talk) 00:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
All the evidence that we have (birth certificate, statement from his lawyers, etc.) clearly shows that he is a British national and only a British national, which makes him British. There seems to be only one editor who is resisting this reality. I support "British-born..." as a compromise if a compromise even needs to be found. Vdjj1960 (talk) 03:08, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Is there a head count of how many editors oppose calling him "a British rapper"? I figured there was consensus before now, but it really doesn't appear to have been discussed at all. Nohomersryan (talk) 03:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

So far, no legitimate reason has been brought forth to omit his nationality here. I think this edit can safely be made ForgotMyPW (talk) 05:20, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
No one has ever called him a British rapper and they way rappers are responding to this story, they still claim him as an ATLien. Not even the BBC is calling him that; they have questions too. Either no nationality or the correct one, and at this point in time that is unknown. UK laws are different that US laws. Don’t let controversy cloud your minds to start disrupting Wikipedia. Trillfendi (talk) 22:34, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
It doesn't matter what anyone else calls him since we use the legal definition of nationality on Wikipedia. All the current evidence (birth certificate, ICE officials, British Foreign Office) points to him being a British man, born in the U.K. to British parents. ForgotMyPW (talk) 00:08, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Once again, British nationality law differs signifcantly from America’s. The UK is not a jus soli country at all. His lawyers claim ICE has it all wrong because he actually came here at age 7, so what the hell would we know. Hell, for years y’all had him as born in Atlanta with nothing to verify it but his word. Trillfendi (talk) 04:07, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
We don't need to interpret the nationality laws ourselves since all sources agree with him being a British national (birth certificate, ICE officials, British Foreign Office, his own spokesperson). Whether he came to the United States at age 7 or age 12 does not affect this at all. If have any credible, up-to-date sources that dispute the fact that he is a British national, please cite them. 129.97.124.29 (talk) 00:38, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
I’m not going to go into a spiel about why DREAMers call themselves “American” just because they grew up here but don’t have the proper identification papers... ICE agent Cox says he doesn’t know if Savage qualifies for DACA protection or not.[1] The fact remains, Savage calls himself “African-American”, not Black British, (and his lawyers never described him as such in any statement, they said he is “Atlanta based” who happens to be born in the UK) and it’s not our place to be the State Department. All these years y’all called him “American rapper” on this website without question, and frankly we should respect his identity the same way we have to do with any other article. We don’t know his legal situation. All we know is he has a pending U visa. Trillfendi (talk) 06:41, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
From the day his visa expired to the day ICE issued a Notice to Appear, he was in the U.S. unlawfully. He can only apply for cancellation of removal or a waiver of inadmissibility under 8 U.S.C. § 1182(h). Regarding his nationality, if he ever claimed U.S. citizenship, that by itself is a removable offense.

Any alien who falsely represents, or has falsely represented, himself to be a citizen of the United States for any purpose or benefit under this chapter (including section 1324a of this title) or any Federal or State law is deportable.[1] [2]

An alien in the United States is every person who is neither a U.S. citizen nor a U.S. national. 21 Savage is an alien. U.S. immigration law equally applies to everyone. Even Charles, Prince of Wales, will be deported from the U.S. if he were to do what 21 Savage did, unless "a full and unconditional pardon" is obtained pursuant to 8 U.S.C. § 1227(a)(2)(A)(iv).[3]--Libracarol (talk) 10:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
It doesn't seem entirely clear to me whether this discussion is about the opening sentence or the infobox or some other part of the article. If it is about the opening sentence, please note that some related (and subsequent) comments are found in another section of this Talk page, entitled "Protected edit request on 6 February 2019". I personally don't think it is necessary or appropriate to attempt to assign a demonym adjective to him in the opening sentence, as that would oversimplify the situation. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:44, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
Since the idea just came up in someone's edit, I also don't perceive a consensus to refer to him as "a British-American rapper". As the article on that topic says, the term "British-American" generally refers to someone who is American that is ancestrally British or to someone who holds dual citizenship. Basically, "British-American" is a subcategory of "American", and I see no consensus to describe him as American. He was not born in the U.S. and is not an American citizen and it is not even clear that he is eligible to become an American citizen. Spending a lot of time in the United States does not necessarily make someone an American. I think it is unnecessary and inaccurate to attempt to apply any such adjective to him in the opening sentence; that just oversimplifies a complex situation. His status is described much more clearly a few sentences later. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:40, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
That’s why demonyms should be removed completely until further notice. No one was calling this man British even 2 weeks ago; for years reliable sources referred to him as American. It’s certainly not as if this administration is going to even address DACA. Anyone can have an American ethos but the law hasn’t changed yet. They’re more focused on the Wall™ than visa misuse. The man is in a situation with multiple complex and unknown factors simply out of his control. We obviously don’t know them either. So for now, it should be left the way it is. Stateless. Trillfendi (talk) 23:15, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Per WP:MOSBIO, we use his legal nationality. It is not ambiguous - several reliable sources state that he is a British citizen. And it is definitely notable given recent events. --hippo43 (talk) 10:11, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

@Hippo43: Can you point to where you found this in MOSBIO? All I could find was one mention of nationality in the MOS:OPENPARABIO section: The opening paragraph should usually state… (3) Context (location or nationality). I can't find a mention of "legal nationality". Instead, MOSBIO seems to give the option of usually providing "location" or "nationality". Airplaneman 18:51, 19 February 2019 (UTC)

“Damn, I love my house, I ain’t gonna be able to go in my house no more? I ain’t gonna be able to go to my favorite restaurant that I been going to for 20 years straight? That’s the most important thing. If you tell me, I’ll give you 20 million to go stay somewhere you ain’t never stayed, I’d rather be broke. I’ll sit in jail to fight to live where I’ve been living my whole life.” — 21 Savage told the New York Times

If that’s not clear enough then what is. 3 weeks ago “reliable” sources called him American. If anything, call this man British-born and call it a damn day. Trillfendi (talk) 19:23, 19 February 2019 (UTC)
@Airplaneman: I'm paraphrasing the part you're referring to. "In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident." Per reliable sources, we know he is a British citizen/national. We don't know if he is a permanent resident anywhere.
@Trillfendi: The fact that he wants to stay in America doesn't make him not British. 'British-born' is not a nationality, and is not clear. Does it mean he was born British, or born in Britain? Does it mean he was born British but isn't British any more?
There's no good reason not to just use the facts - British nationality, based in Atlanta. --hippo43 (talk) 05:21, 20 February 2019 (UTC)
It is clear from the continuing Talk page discussion that there is still no consensus to call him a British rapper in the opening sentence. Legal citizenship does not provide an adequate description of personal identity in this case. No national adjective is necessary in the opening sentence. MOS:BIO does not say we need to use such an adjective. His relationship to the two countries is described much more clearly a few sentences later. MOS:BIO says "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for the activities that made the person notable. In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or ..." This isn't most cases. In this case, the "context for the activities that made this person notable" are the context of his life in Atlanta, Georgia, not Britain. —BarrelProof (talk) 05:29, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

English rapper not "British" rapperEdit

I look at articles like, Sam Smith, James Blake, Giggs and Skepta, all have the word "English" in them instead of the word "British". I think English rapper or English-born rapper sounds more appropriate. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 02:55, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

  • The article doesn't say anything like that right now, but that sounds correct. MF Doom's article uses English-born, and he's the closest parallel to 21 I can think of. Nohomersryan (talk) 09:08, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
@Nohomersryan: What I mean is, if we gonna change 21 Savage's nationality based on current events, at least use a more correct term. Personally I don't really care about this news but editors and IP editors keep adding "British" in 21 Savage-related articles, like Issa Album and Without Warning. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 03:26, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Oh, ok. Yeah I did see British rapper pop up in a few articles there. I don't know for sure if Wikipedia discourages it, since if you search "song by British rapper" you'll find countless articles using that phrase. English rapper appears slightly more common, and it's what I'd go with myself if there's no strict guideline. Nohomersryan (talk) 09:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
@Nohomersryan: There's probably no strict guideline of the word "British", but England can be considered as a country by itself. Which probably why most editors don't use the word "British" in English people-related articles. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 04:45, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
@TheAmazingPeanuts: Actually, I believe British is preferred only when referring to a group which has people from multiple parts of the UK. A prominent example would be Mumford & Sons, where two of its members were born in/hold citizenship outside of England, Scotland, Wales, or Ireland. At least, that's what I seem to understand from looking up the difference between "English" and "British". 21 Savage obviously doesn't hold citizenship here in the States so I think English is the correct term. Or maybe if someone carries citizenship in multiple individual parts of the UK? Is that how it works over there or not? Someone from there should enlighten my American mind on that, but I digress because it doesn't appear to be the case for Sav anyway. dannymusiceditor oops 02:07, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
@DannyMusicEditor: My main issue is editors keep changing 21 Savage's nationality back and forth without requesting a RfC first. Airplaneman did the right thing to lock the article because editors keep edit warring. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 21:54, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
When it is unlocked, British should be removed. There is no consensus to have that any nationality there now; the last editor to restore this, Vdjj1960, did not have consensus and seems to think it's a "common sense issue" when controversial issues are hardly ever that simple. Ss112 09:07, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
@Ss112: I agreed the word "British" should be removed off the article, there was never a consensus on it anyway. And you could ask Ad Orientem to remove the word off the first sentence for you. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 15:00, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm not tinkering with this until/unless we have a consensus. -Ad Orientem (talk) 21:10, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm good with that. How many people do you want, Ad Orientem? dannymusiceditor oops 04:23, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── Open a formal discussion on the question and we will see where things stand tomorrow evening. I suggest at the bottom of the page. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

If you insist. I don't see the issue in just taking that here if we had a few more but I won't really fight it either. dannymusiceditor oops 04:33, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
English-born is definitely a much more appropriate and uncontroversial moniker for him, given that he has lived in the US since childhood. Insisting that he is British, when he has been living in Atlanta for the vast majority of his life, comes off as odd and unjustified. It's what MF Doom has been described as on his Wikipedia page for ages. R3troguy420 (talk) 13:54, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I agree with R3troguy420, someone should put British-born instead of British, since he is basically from Atlanta. I think the question is whether to call an undocumented immigrant American or not. I would say in Savage's case, since he has lived in America since he was 7 and has deep roots in Atlanta regardless of his Britishness, we should call him Americans. Aren't Dreamers considered American? He was brought here when he was 6, I think he counts as a Dreamer. C1MM (talk) 22:55, 17 February 2019 (UTC)

Better reference for felony drug conviction?Edit

The article states that "Abraham-Joseph was convicted of felony drug charges in October 2014 in Fulton County, Georgia." As a reference, it points to an article from NBC Boston which simply states the same thing, with no further details. This account is disputed by the subject's lawyers [1] and it is reported that his record has been expunged [2][3]. It seems that some elaboration and better sources are in order here.

Sgress454 (talk) 04:40, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

There seems to be some confusion over whether his conviction was really for a felony, and whether the record was "sealed" versus "expunged", and whether sealing or expunging affects his ability to legalize his presence in the United States. —BarrelProof (talk) 01:33, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
This article in Billboard also says "In 2014, he was arrested on drug charges, though his lawyers say they were later cleared from his record. (Still, following his arrest, an ICE representative cited a 2014 felony drug conviction in a written statement about 21 Savage.)" It seems to confirm the date and a felony, and introduces a third vague term "cleared" (versus "sealed" versus "expunged"). Another interesting point is that it says the U visa application was "in relation to a 2013 shooting on the rapper's 21st birthday, during which he was shot six times and his friend was killed". —BarrelProof (talk) 20:41, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Restore US styleEdit

This article was started in April 2016 with US style dates and spelling, because the rapper was seen as coming from Atlanta, Georgia, US, and because the rapper was seen as American. The US style of the biography continued for several years, changing only recently when his created persona was revealed to be false, that he had been born in the UK and was in the US illegally.

However, the topic is still an American topic, being the biography of a rapper who first gained fame in Atlanta, with primarily American fans, creating music in American studios with American colleagues and collaborators. The note at the top saying that this is a British style article should be removed. Binksternet (talk) 21:58, 14 April 2019 (UTC)

Change it back expeditiously. It should have never been changed as a result of a criminal allegation. Trillfendi (talk) 22:12, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
I completely agree. The topic is much more of interest to American readers than British ones, and originally used American-style dates and spellings. —BarrelProof (talk) 23:42, 14 April 2019 (UTC)
Return to "21 Savage" page.