Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales/Archive 2020

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The Great Britain/Ireland Destubathon

Hi. The Wikipedia:The Great Britain/Ireland Destubathon is planned for March 2020, a contest/editathon to eliminate as many stubs as possible from all 134 counties. Amazon vouchers/book prizes are planned for most articles destubbed from England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland and Northern Ireland and whoever destubs articles from the most counties out of the 134. Sign up on page if interested in participating, hope this will prove to be good fun and productive, we have over 44,000 stubs! Even if "contests" aren't your thing, think of it as motivation to improve our content! Hope to see a lot of Welsh articles improved as part of this, there is a £50 prize for most Wales articles destubbed!♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:22, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Aberaeron Broth

Is Aberaeron Broth noteworthy? Our article is inadequate and I think it should probably redirect to Cawl. Comments please at Talk:Aberaeron Broth#Is this noteworthy? Verbcatcher (talk) 00:51, 27 February 2020 (UTC)

Elephant & Castle

Hello, I have added the Elephant and Castle, Charles Street, Wales to you new article list. I also tried but failed due to my incompetence to add it DYK. On the 13th June 1863, George Smith committed suicide at the Elephant and Castle. He was better known as the father of Annie Chapman, the second victim of Jack the Ripper! --WPCW (talk) 13:19, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Notification of discussion on deleting all local government subdivision articles

There is currently a discussion going on at WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom regarding a proposal to delete all articles on individual local government subdivisions. Please feel free to participate in this discussion. Sparkle1 (talk) 19:44, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

Monmouthshire listed buildings

Grade II* listed buildings in Monmouthshire is up as a Featured List candidate, here, FLC. If it makes it, I think Monmouthshire will be the only English or Welsh county with Grade I and Grade II* listed building lists that are both Featured and have articles and images for every entry. All comments very gratefully received. KJP1 (talk) 17:59, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Done. KJP1 (talk) 22:11, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

COVID-19

Thankfully, we have 2020 coronavirus pandemic in Wales!

I've created a short article on the Nifer yr achosion o'r Gofid Mawr (COVID-19) yng Nghymru (stats on cywiki), and an English one would be good. Also, we have Template:2019–20 coronavirus pandemic data/United Kingdom/Scotland medical cases but, so far, no Welsh equivalent. If someone has the time, then please let's get the coverage on Wales done asap; this is the worst nightmare to hit Wales since the war. People are searching for correct information relevant to our country and often find irrelevant and incorrect info on the 'England' dressed up with the word 'UK', usually thanks to the BBC. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 07:18, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

For future reference, could you please translate "Nghymru Nifer yr achosion o'r Gofid Mawr (COVID-19) yng Nghymru" for English speakers? Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:10, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

As it's a request for a translation from Welsh -> English I didn't think it needed translating, but in brief it's an article on the stats pertaining to Wales. It contains info which will be updated twice weekly, if not daily, with numbers of deaths, tests etc. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 13:48, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

Aren't there other more suitable places for tickertape updates of current events? Sionk (talk) 17:42, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

We are here to build up the "sum of all human knowledge". Most people would say that this pandemic is historic and worth recording. It's also extremely important that unbiased, apolitical, factual and up-to-date information is included within that 'knowledge'. There are many COVID-19 projects on the Wikimedia projects to ensure that this happens.

If you want to call the number of people infected, and the number of deaths as 'tickertape' info, that's up to you. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 08:33, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm sure there would be very little objection if you were to start the article yourself - a straight translation of the Welsh article would be fine. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:04, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Wales GAR

Wales, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. buidhe 18:54, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:National Assembly for Wales proposing:

National Assembly for Wales → Senedd

Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. Llew Mawr (talk) 19:06, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Also: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_May_6#Television_program(me)s where it is proposed to move Category:Welsh-language television programmes to Category:Welsh-language television shows as part of a drive towards standardising on US terminology. Deb (talk) 13:23, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Principality of Wales

Could we have some more eyes on this article? I reverted a recent addition of a Coat of Arms used by some late medaeval Princes of Wales and made the case on the talk page. We've got one editor who has forgotten about WP:BRD so I've tagged the article as disputed for the moment. I think there could be a case (although I am dubious) for the arms of Edward of Caernarfon but there is no reason to arbitrarily choose one coat of arms out of the several used by various occupants of the post. Either way it's not a major issue but some more views would be welcome -----Snowded ^TALK 18:29, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

AMs or MSs for former members

Some very well meaning individuals have changed almost every mention of AM to MS including for people like Jane Davidson who retired in 2011.

Has there been any discussion of this? To me it seems ridiculous to refer to individuals such as Jane Davidson, Rhodri Morgan etc as former MSs.

Littlemonday (talk) 10:01, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Is it just an over-zealous editor doing this? Sionk (talk) 01:42, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks and I hope so. I've changed one or two back, but don't want to potentially start an edit war with them. I've mentioned it on (User_talk:Vaze50) and will wait for a responce before undoing any more edits. Littlemonday (talk) 12:09, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Black Book of St David's 1326

I'm curious about this work, mentioned in an archaeological study here. There doesn't seem to be anything about it on WP, unless I'm not looking properly. Anyone know? Tony Holkham (Talk) 12:56, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

That is curious. I would have doubted the source but it's referred to in several books. There doesn't seem to be an article on Welsh Wikipedia either, so probably worth asking User:Jason.nlw. Deb (talk) 13:22, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

I have not found anything that supports the Private Limited Company has 'charity number' 504616, finding nothing on a search of the Charity register [1] for [2]. Clearly a business, possibly a reliable source.SovalValtos (talk) 18:06, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Definitely a reliable source, I would say, and used a great deal on WP. They are listed here, and do a great deal of work with and for CADW. They quote their sources, too. T. Tony Holkham (Talk) 18:26, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Here are some mentions:


*BHO

• Willis Bund 1902
• Google books
• NLW
• Amazon

Tony Holkham (Talk) 18:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Missing communities

Of of around 878 communities around 17 are missing;

• Aberaman South
• Aberdare West
• Baglan Moors
• Forden with Leighton and Trelystan
• Llanfihangel Cwmdu with Bwlch and Cathedine
• Mountain Ash West
• Risca East
• Risca West

And then the following are redirects only

• Clyne and Melincourt
• Grovesend and Waungron
• Gwehelog Fawr
• Kilgetty/Begelly
• Llandissilio West
• St David's and the Cathedral Close (see comment below)
• Three Crosses, Swansea (also a settlement)
• Trewalchmai
• Upper Killay (also a settlement)

Although the number has gone down a lot in recent years it would be good if we could bring it down to 0. In addition to that there is also Uzmaston and Boulston that is a former community and Abermule with Llandyssil that should probably be merged with Llandyssil since that's the name of the community. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:42, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

The article St Davids covers the fact that it is a community, albeit one with an extended name; an article for the community would be surplus to requirements

The redirects in Pembrokeshire could at some point have their own article; but then there are many Pembrokeshire villages that are either stubs or have no article at all (Uzmaston and Boulston was a short-lived community); they could have their own article if enough information surfaced to make them notable. Being a redirect is not necessarily a Bad Thing, though. Tony Holkham (Talk) 18:49, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Tony. There's little point in creating stub articles for some of them, because there's little sourcable or useful information to impart. Some of the Rhondda Cynon Taf and southeast Wales communities are do-able though, so don't let me hold you back. Sionk (talk) 19:23, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

I was under the impression that "St David's and the Cathedral Close" isn't an alternative name for "St David's" but rather a different thing given that it includes "and the Cathedral Close" in the name and includes other places and Ramsey Island[3]. But its possible that it is still an alternative name and thus might be surples. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:03, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

True, St David's and the Cathedral Close is the name of the community and stretches well beyond what most people would recognise as St Davids (or the Cathedral Close for that matter). There would be an argument (that I'd support) for splitting some of the info currently in the St David's article, into a St David's and the Cathedral Close article. From what I remember, I held back from doing this because the history/politics is a bit complex. Sionk (talk) 21:03, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Related to that, our articles for Laugharne (the town) and Laugharne Township (the community) were recently merged; discussion is on the talk page of the former. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:26, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

@Sionk: I noticed that St David's (Pembrokeshire electoral ward) exists that you created a few years ago. The article notes (and I have verified from City Population) that the community and ward have the same boundaries therefore we could just move that article to "St David's and the Cathedral Close". Alternatively we could just move most of the content for the community to the ward article which would probably be fine especially since if the ward boundaries later change we could spit the community from it. There was discussion on having separate articles at Talk:St Davids#St David's and the Cathedral Close back in 2009 when it was moved to that title. It was noted that the city status is held by the community but that is in line with Brighton/Brighton and Hove for example. As you can see from List of smallest cities in the United Kingdom the settlement only makes up 1.29% of the area of the community. I'll leave a note on the article's talk page about this. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:16, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

I would hope there would be space for a city article, a community article and a ward article. Probably the ward is the weakest of the three, I know there are a few editors that are gunning for electoral ward articles at the moment, many of which are just collections of voting/election stats takemn from the local authority website. I just found it a little boit fascinating that an electoral ward covered an entire city! But neither the ward, community or settlement share both the same name and boundary, so I wouldn't support a merger. Sionk (talk) 21:17, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

@Sionk: so we should have 3 articles? Given that the community and ward boundaries are the same it would seem normal to have them in 1 article which is what seems to have been done with the other wards that have the same boundaries as a community though Amroth (electoral ward) is separate despite having the same boundaries as the community. I have no objections though so if you think we can have 3 you can create an article for the community, otherwise we can just have 1 article for both. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:20, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I don't know where this conversation is going. Communities aren't wards. The St David's ward has a different name from the community, to boot. Some wards have separate articles, others don't, generally because no-one has had the time or inclination to write an article yet (and sometimes because the ward is completely un-notable). I've written a good few articles about Wales communities and wards. If anyone wants to write a St David's and the Cathedral Close article, I'm not stopping them. Sionk (talk) 20:39, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

OK, I'll move most of the info for the community into the ward article then. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:54, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Why? Sionk (talk) 11:11, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

That does sound like an unnecessary action. Deb (talk) 13:13, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Because the community and ward should probbaly be handled in a single article since identical boundaries. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:19, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I've moved Abermule with Llandyssil to Llandyssil (community). Considering we already had an established article on that community, there was no need to merge it with the article about the village of the same name. Sionk (talk) 22:59, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Category:Welsh-language television shows has been nominated for discussion

Category:Welsh-language television shows has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Deb (talk) 08:07, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Category:Hardys has been nominated for deletion

Category:Hardys has been nominated for deletion. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Bermicourt (talk) 16:17, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Created an article for Bodnant Community School

I've created an article for Bodnant Community School. I'm new to Wikipedia and was wondering if this would be considered within the scope of this project? Jeefpeef (talk) 17:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at List_of_lakes_of_Wales

There is a discussion at List of lakes of Wales which could benefit from a wider input from knowledgeable Welsh Wikipedians. Thanks  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   13:48, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Category:Measures of Senedd Cymru – Welsh Parliament has been nominated for discussion

Category:Measures of Senedd Cymru – Welsh Parliament has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:08, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Proposing a move

I noticed yesterday that John Edwards (Welsh politician) had been moved to Jack Edwards (British politician). Apparently this happened several years ago but I don't know why. The article gives no indication that he was often, or ever, known as "Jack", but someone here may know different? If not, I propose to move him back. Deb (talk) 09:54, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Support Yes, we should go with what the major sources call him.† Encyclopædius 11:41, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Plaid Cymru - democratic socialist?

Seeking the views of more editors on this matter Talk:Plaid Cymru#Possible removal of the ideology of democratic socialism. Your views on the matter are welcomed and would be much appreciated. Please leave them on the linked talk page, thanks. Helper201 (talk) 08:48, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

Is the Velindre University NHS Trust a university?

Velindre University NHS Trust was awarded university status by the Welsh Government in 2018.[4] Should we therefore include it in List of universities in Wales and in Category:Universities in Wales? Verbcatcher (talk) 21:52, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Good question. I don't really know what "university status" means in this context. Deb (talk) 11:05, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

My feeling is "no", but university health trusts/boards (there are several) may warrant a mention in List of universities in Wales. There is a list article List of NHS Wales trusts and health boards. Tony Holkham (Talk) 12:31, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

It's likely that the NHS Trust provides on-the-job training leading to a full academic qualification, perhaps a degree in nursing. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:57, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Local Government expert?

We need a really good page tying together the history of local government boundary changes and council authority changes. I found a lot of "bits and pieces" today while researching to create the requested Aberdare West page (please check my sandbox btw and give me feedback) - but no real overview explaining how these pieces go together.

Considering Aberdare specifically, for example, it's been passed between the following in the last 200 years without a clear sense of when each of these bodies started and stopped:

• Mid Glamorgan County Council
• Aberdare Town (electoral ward)
• Llwydcoed (electoral ward)
• Aberdare East
• District of Rhondda

There are also very few references.

Do we have an expert here? Or anybody know a very good book or authoritative website? Is there interest in creating a mini-project specifically to tackle this?

Cheers all - will keep looking into it, but I'm hoping we have a local government historian who will be able to tackle this with confidence Ninquelosse (talk) 00:31, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

I'd agree that it can be very confusing but we do already have this page - History of local government in Wales - further detail should be added there. In addition to current content, a simple at-a-glance timeline might well be helpful. cheers Geopersona (talk) 06:18, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Talk:Welsh_independence#Informal/Non-professional_opinion_polls

Need some interested editors to weigh in on the matter of some recent opinion polls. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 04:14, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Merge proposal

Hi, I have raised a proposal to merge List of Welsh principal areas by area and List of Welsh principal areas into List of Welsh principal areas by population; more details at the article talk page. If anyone is interested in the matter either way, please add comments (on that page rather than here). Thanks, Crowsus (talk) 16:35, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

No reasons were given for merging. I've left a comment. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 19:21, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Geology of Wales by county

After compiling a Geology of Monmouthshire some considerable while ago, I've recently initiated two further articles; Geology of Ceredigion and Geology of Carmarthenshire, with a view to also putting together one for Anglesey and another for Pembrokeshire. I have also compiled the Geology of Brecon Beacons National Park and Geology of Snowdonia National Park, as part of a growing family of such articles for all of the UK national parks. I'm minded that a county geology of Pembrokeshire will also serve as the article for the Pembs Coast NP, such is the extent of overlap. In connection with the county geologies I've established a new template at Template:Geology of Wales, comparable to that which already existed for England.

My quandary from this point is how to further progress county geological coverage of Wales; there are choices to be made. Each of those completed or mooted thus far are for areas which are both current counties and (barring some manageable modifications) also traditional pre-74 counties, that's to say readily recognisable by a wide range of people. But do I go for separate geologies of the traditional counties of Radnor, Montgomery and Brecknock or just a single one of Powys? And turning to south Wales - is it to be 'Geology of Glamorgan(shire)' or some combination of smaller districts? And up north, what might be most appropriate - Flintshire, Denbighshire etc or Clwyd and Gwynedd or some assortment of current administrative units, noting that the modern boundaries map awkwardly onto the traditional ones. Observations please?! cheers Geopersona (talk) 14:37, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

What you have done so far is very useful. Personally I think that using the modern political boundaries is sufficient. Writing the article for Anglesey is going to be a tour-de-force, especially when dealing with Parys Mountain! I would welcome appropriate geological inputs into some of the River articles and some of the key nature reserves and national parks since geology is often a powerful determiner of significance and morphology. I think that there is also opportunities for substantial expansion of what you have already started to include more on superficial geology and setting the time-line for the major phases of orography in Wales. I read the Ceredigion article with great interest but would have loved to have seen much more on the metalliferous mining, the geo-morphological genesis of the metalliferous seams and how they were all related. Regards  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   15:58, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Velella - you'll see some of what you wish for soon on the metals and 'superficials' front but not all of it - finding suitable references for some aspects is trickier than one might hope at times. I expect you know the feeling. As to putting more geology into other articles, I've toyed with the idea of doing that for Wales' AONBs, indeed I began Geology of the Gower Peninsula recently, astonished that it had not already been covered! cheers Geopersona (talk) 16:15, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

Wouldn't you be best to concentrate on defined areas that have a noted geological history. I can't imagine there's much available that looks at the geology of Torfaen County Borough, but I can easily imagine there are plenty of books and studies about the geology of Glamorgan, for example. Sionk (talk) 21:15, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Sionk - Thanks. There's much truth in that, and so many of the modern unitaries are so small in any case. (B.t.w. I think you were just using it to express a relevant point but I've already covered Torfaen within the Monmouthshire article.) Regarding continued relevance, there remains the potential for some of these modern units to be swept away in the next (inevitable?) round of administrative change though the posited mergers of some of the valleys authorities (e.g. RCT and Merthyr) just a few years ago did not happen. There are however other arguments against use of certain old admin units too; a traditional Caernarvonshire approach would entail considerable overlap with Snowdonia (though lots of geology in Arfon and Llŷn which is markedly different from that in the NP) whilst a traditional Flintshire approach would entail a description of three separate areas, reflecting the curious administrative geography until '74. I feel that what might work best in one part of Wales would not suit another; I'm warming to a Powys-wide approach for the three traditional counties of Radnor, Montgomery and Brecknock, but at the same time warming to a Glamorgan-wide account of the geology represented by the numerous geographically small unitaries which cover that traditional county. Geology is no respecter of admin boundaries (though it might be observed that the southern boundary of the Brecon Beacons NP, extant since 1957, does reflect the geology as it roughly corresponds to the northern margin of the Coal Measures - a divide between the industrialised region to its south and the less impacted landscape to its north). cheers Geopersona (talk) 06:59, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Geopersona (talk · contribs), you are doing a fantastic job. I'm sorry that I don't have the answers to your dilemma. Deb (talk) 09:11, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Just added a link in the template to mining in wales - I think it probably ought to have some sort of 'topography of wales', 'volcanics in wales' and maybe one of the sections should be 'the valleys' - but that article seems short on any geology, maybe the 'south wales coal fields', and maybe the southern border ridges, oh and maybe 'the welsh coastline' should be a section ? I've heard they are starting jokingly to call it the 'dragon coast' but I've not seen that in 'reliable print' yet (as it is throwing out some nice fossils but they can't use the Jurassic coast as that monika's already taken). does 'hydrology of wales' warrant a link ? besides waterfalls (which I think already has an article)- there is some geothermal at taffs well for instance due to the syncline under the south wales coal field - anyway just wanted to say it looks good so farGeopersona (talk · contribs) keep it up. EdwardLane (talk) 09:49, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Wondered further about whether the geology under the severn estuary/bristol channel should be included - and then I thought about cardigan bay, and the petrified forest Cantre'r_Gwaelod#Physical_evidence EdwardLane (talk) 10:32, 2 November 2020 (UTC)

Deb (talk · contribs), EdwardLane (talk · contribs) Thanks for your interest and support. Incidentally re Dragon Coast, I'd mused myself on what name it might garner - 'Dragon Coast' is quite amusing!

Thanks for the comment Deb (talk · contribs), thinking about it a bit more should there be a paleontology subsection to point at notable fossiliferous sites/strata that are found in wales - Dracoraptor, the petrified forest I mentioned above (+any other geological SSSI in wales) could go in that - if that is a sensible thought - as a way of organizing things. sorry I'm still chucking out ideas at the moment rather than writing articles. Are there welsh Geologists of note - should they be in the template or is that too parochial? EdwardLane (talk) 09:34, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

No doubt, a layman might want to search for (say) "The Geology of Breconshire". Good luck with that. Such articles (geology not respecting county boundaries) would inevitably involve an awful lot of links to other articles. Geology, and Powys(!), is of course a huge area. There have certainly been "notable" Welsh geologists - not least my old "boss" Sir Alwyn Williams (who is not listed in the Category:Welsh Geologists for some reason). StanhopeNg (talk) 13:37, 21 December 2020 (UTC)

He is now! The Geology of Wales (which also does not respect the boundary approximating Offa's Dyke) is an even bigger article, so I'd argue it is worth breaking the area down to go into more detail than can be done at country level and counties are the units that the most people can most readily relate to - but exactly which counties, post-74, is a question! Powys is manageable. I've often mused on the fact that the BGS break down their descriptions into small rectangular areas across each of the UK's constituent countries, and that's a really strange way of going about things when you think about it! cheers Geopersona (talk) 14:10, 21 December 2020 (UTC)