Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales/Archive 2012

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A Call to Arms

The Welsh Wicipedia needs help. We've lost three or four of our Admins (and a Bureaucrat) in the last few months. There are many jobs that non-Welsh speakers can do; one of which is mentioned by me in the Caffi. There are too few of us, and mountains to climb, battles to be fought... Mae eich gwlad a'ch iaith eich heisiau. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 05:36, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Er, which job(s) specifically? I'm most definitely a Saesneg-only speaker, and having briefly looked through the cy:Wicipedia:Y Caffi page, I don't see which might be "jobs that non-Welsh speakers can do; one of which is mentioned by [Llywelyn2000]". My contribs to cy: are, so far, limited to establishing interlanguage links where none previously existed. I'm not sure what else I can do. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:24, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree Redrose, I feel as a non-Welsh speaker that I have nothing to add to the project as there appears to be no information as to where English language speakers can aid the project. FruitMonkey (talk) 23:01, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I took so long to get back to you. Here are a few jobs for the boys:

1. Attend the first Welsh language Wikimeet - actually it's a full day Editathon at the Cardiff Central Library, help new users or copy / paste mail merged articles (semi-automated, as we have no bots). We'll provide lunch!
2. Here are few articles with dead links / references which need amending. Solid refs are the backbone of every article. My priority is writing new and editing newly created articles; we need men in shinning armour to do a very laborious task, but is a crucial one!
3. Copy / paste Infoboxes (eg towns, weather) from en to cy.
4. Search for databases of English and Scottish towns (and villages!) which have a few simple fields eg population, percentage of adults out of work, percentage not born in that town.... We can then mail merge this data and try and create a bot to upload.
5. Counties of England. I've uploaded the "Infobox England county" to cy. I've tested it on one County: Swydd Gaerlŷr (Leicestershire). We now need to copy / paste from the rest, which you can find here.

And that's only a start!

Many thanks a diolch yn fawr! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 16:07, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Tudor House of Penmynydd: much older than Henry Vlll  !!!

Take a look at this], please... and VOTE! Ysgol Dinas Bran (talk) 16:49, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Vote where and for what? Daicaregos (talk) 07:17, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Tudor dynasty#Move?, I think. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:01, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, there's a vote there on whether the House of Tudor began with Henry Vll or was it much older: in fact the Welsh article on Penmynydd has much more details on the Tudors family which goes back 400 - 500 years before Henry. Thanks, Ghmyrtle: Talk:Tudor dynasty#Move? Llywelyn2000 (talk) 21:31, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Given Ednyfed Fychan was the paternal apical ancestor of the entire Tudor Dynasty of England, Wales, Ireland & even France, that there is no mention made here of his apparent apical ancestors, South Welsh Prince Rhys ap Tewdwr thus King of Briton Howell the Good who codified Welsh Law & WikiProject Wales|class=start|importance=low!? WHY!? Matthew (talk) 15:31, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Geocoding backlog for articles about things and places in Wales

Hello! I just thought you might want to know that there are currently over 200 articles in Category:Wales articles missing geocoordinate data and its subcategories. Any help you can give to add coordinates to these locations would be greatly appreciated. WP:COORD has more information on how to add geographic location data to articles. Thanks! -- The Anome (talk) 19:35, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

There are more welsh folk singers that don't sound like as if they are singing opera and at least three hundred years old. that play celtic music, just had a look at the extensive list of welsh folk singers, ah hem 4. on the article "welsh singers", thanks. Example- fernhill (welsh folk band) playing celtic music and instruments. the category completely LACKS a single ACTUAL folk singer AS in someone who doesn't sing opera and plays celtic, welsh folk music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.103.160.253 (talk) 18:34, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Back to Geotagging: yes you have a few (200) in English. There are more than 2,000 on Wiki cy, and what's more, they haven't been nominated as such. Please help. Llywelyn2000 (talk) 08:13, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

"Newport, Wales" is problematic is it?

I'd thought I'd seen it all. I was wrong. Mais oui! (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Newport, Gwent is correct. Johnbod (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Are you sure? I thought Gwent was abolished? Anyhoo, duly adjusted. Mais oui! (talk) 16:40, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Gwent ceased to exist as an everyday county in 1996. What was "Newport, Gwent" became "Newport, Newport". The key matter is that it be distinguished from Newport, Pembrokeshire, which is also potentially "Newport, Wales" (although that's not a very likely way to refer to it). Quite what motivated the edit in question, I don't know; even if "Newport, Wales" is ambiguous, it's not incorrect. --Stemonitis (talk) 16:43, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Here in Conwy County we suffer from similar problems. The Post Office, for instance, and databases, prefer still to use Gwynedd and Clwyd rather than Conwy, as it causes (they say) confusion with Conwy town. I thought postcodes sorted all that! Let's just be grateful we don't live here, in Wales, England! Hogyn Lleol ★ ^(chat) 17:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely DO NOT use "Newport, Gwent". If disambiguation is needed "Newport, south Wales" is preferred. Owain (talk) 12:28, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. "Newport, Gwent" may be outmoded, but it is at least unambiguous. "Newport, south Wales" could refer to Newport, Pembrokeshire. --Stemonitis (talk) 12:43, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

It is against the manual of style and also against the policy to use common names. Gwent existed as an entity for 22 years between 1974 and 1996. I would hardly call that a good choice for disambiguation. Owain (talk) 12:47, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

It's not perfect, but it is unambiguous. "Newport, Gwent", "Newport, Monmouthshire" and "Newport, Newport" are unambiguous, while "Newport, Wales" and "Newport, South Wales" are not. If your intention is to disambiguate, you have to choose from the former group. The timings of local government reform don't affect the ambiguity of a phrase, and nor does WP:MOS or WP:NC; those are separate issues. --Stemonitis (talk) 12:55, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

@Stemonitis: Geographically, some non-locals may consider that Newport, Pembrokeshire is in "South Wales", but in reality it is never referred to in that way; its wider area is either Pembrokeshire or West Wales. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:05, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I would agree with that - Newport, Monmouthshire is South Wales, whereas Newport, Pembrokeshire is West Wales. If one had to draw a line I would say Monmouthshire and Glamorgan are South Wales, whereas Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire are West Wales. Owain (talk) 13:12, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Ghmyrtle, I am aware of the tradition, but many won't be, and the borders are incredibly vague. It is perfectly possible to divide Wales into North Wales and South Wales only, or into North, Mid and South Wales; in those cases, Pembrokeshire is still very much South Wales. "Newport, South Wales" could refer to Newport, Pembs., even if it normally wouldn't be (nor would the larger Newport). If the purpose is disambiguation (and I take the point that there are other factors involved), it makes sense to use an entirely unambiguous phrase. The fact that you can define borders to make a phrase less ambiguous doesn't help if that definition is not apparent. See West Wales; it is poorly defined, and can include Swansea (Glamorgan) and doesn't necessarily include Ceredigion. When choosing disambiguating terms, it is only sensible to include well-defined terms, such as modern counties. --Stemonitis (talk) 13:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Frankly on an article about the Newport City Council-owned Newport Transport no disambiguation was needed. Adding "Wales" to the "Headquarters" of the infobox added and disambiguated nothing. The ultimate disambiguator in this case would be the postcode of the headquarters which I will now change it to. Owain (talk) 13:01, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Disambiguation is still needed in such cases, because of 'bots etc. This is admittedly a general point, but for those of us working on SemWeb projects like DBpedia, it matters.

If a link doesn't need disambig, then I'd say that it doesn't need to be a link - just use the text.

As to page naming, then I would favour Newport, Monmouthshire. South Wales is ambiguous, Monmouthshire has much longer history than Gwent and no-one ever really understood Gwent, Blaenau Gwent and Torfaen. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:18, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree fully with that and would go even further by saying that people still don't understand them! :) Owain (talk) 13:23, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

The article is Newport; no disambiguator is needed there, as Wales' third city is the primary meaning of "Newport". --Stemonitis (talk) 13:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed, we're not talking about the naming of the article here, but use in other articles' prose. Owain (talk) 13:43, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Similarly with Cardiff, other Cardiff's are reached via a diambiguation page. I've added the wording "the city of" to the Newport Transport article. All other British Newport's are small communities, so the distinction should be clear. Sionk (talk) 13:47, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Monmouth

I've been working on the article on the town, Monmouth, linked in with the Monmouthpedia project mentioned above, and assuming that the article will get more than usual page views in coming weeks. I'm aware there's a lot of work yet to be done - it lacks a Geography section, there's more to be done on churches, and on references generally - but if anyone here would like to review it, contribute, add comments, etc., that would be much appreciated. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:07, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2012_January_10#Category:Welsh_military_personnel

FYI Johnbod (talk) 21:17, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

WikiWomen's History Month

Hi everyone. March is Women's History Month and I'm hoping a few folks here at WP:Wales will have interest in putting on events (on and off wiki) related to women's roles in Wales' history, society and culture. We've created an event page on English Wikipedia (please translate!) and I hope you'll find the inspiration to participate. These events can take place off wiki, like edit-a-thons, or on wiki, such as themes and translations. Please visit the page here: WikiWomen's History Month. Thanks for your consideration and I look forward to seeing events take place! SarahStierch (talk) 22:04, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, perhaps it would be good if someone could link in to Wikipedia:GLAM/MonmouthpediA by writing an article on Monmouth Women's Festival - some info here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:20, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Pages that may need to be included in this project

I lived in Rhos-on-Sea for a little over a year, then in Glan Conwy for several months after that before returning to the U.S. It was a great experience, I love the area, the people and would kill to have the chance to move back and live out the rest of my life. Thus, I have a strong interest in articles which relate to that area and to Wales in general.

While checking something, I landed at List of post towns in the United Kingdom where I saw several communities in the LL postal district were abscent. I didn't see this project's template listed on its talk page. Since Wales is part of the UK and the article includes what is supposed to be a complete list of Welsh post towns, shouldn't this page be brought into the fold as mid-impotance? This caused me to look at other things and I noticed there was no project template on the LL postcode area, Liverpool Bay talk pages either. In fact, I've found 5 so far with no project template in just a very little bit of looking. Is there a reason the template is not included or has it just not been gotten to yet? While I work on editing some articles, can I add the project template to pages that should be covered under this project's scope as I happen across them? Ken Tholke (talk) 12:56, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Nevermind, I answered my own question on the project page. Passed right by it the first two times. Ken Tholke (talk) 13:01, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Welsh Development Agency Article

The Welsh Development agency article is listed as high importance but a stub in your project. I have made some reasonably substantial edits to the page and would welcome a review of the stub status. Many thanks. Sirfurboy (talk) 11:28, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

St David and St David's Day

• Firstly, do these articles fall into this Project?
• Secondly, do we require both?
• Proposal to merge them together

• To my mind, it is thoroughly confusing having both. Each duplicates the other in many areas.

If the consensus is to support the merging, I should like to put my name forward to carry it out.

Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 12:53, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

Personally I think both should stay. All the major saints have their own page and a page for their celebration day. The St David's article is not a problem, it hardly mentions 1st March as a celebration; I'm assuming you feel that there is too much mention of St David on the St David's Day article. In that case trim it down where you see fit. If you want to see two articles that are shockingly inter-twined, you should look at the Flag of Wales and the Welsh Dragon, that needs a merge IMO. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:33, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

• Fair comment. I'll look at both. Thanks, Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 18:45, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

N Against merging. I'd be tempted to keep them as they are. Hogyn Lleol ★ ^(chat) 07:49, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

• Okay, That's For: 1–Against: 2 Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 11:55, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Please bear in mind that any proposals to merge pages should go through the proper processes as set out here. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:07, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your advice, Ghmyrtle. I suppose my intention is to just test the temperature of feeling towards the idea. What is your inclination? Gareth Griffith-Jones (talk) 12:18, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I would certainly oppose merging St David and St David's Day, but there may be a case for merging Flag of Wales and Welsh Dragon. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:41, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Wales' first Wikimeet

Hello all
There is a Wikimeet in Monmouth this Saturday from 12-5pm, everyone welcome, you can find more information here (As far as I know it's the first one in Wales).

Many thanks
Mrjohncummings (talk) 22:33, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Gerald of Wales

Could someone who knows about him glance at recent edits to this page? My impression is that User:MarcusLeDain wants to adjust Gerald's biography, and especially his family history, beyond the evidence ... but I could be wrong! The footnote citation supposed to support the name "Le Gros" doesn't seem to me to be relevant. Andrew Dalby 11:32, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Russell Deacon

I've nominated the Russell Deacon article for deletion. This was recently assessed as 'mid importance' for the Wales Project, though I'm not sure on what basis. Sionk (talk) 08:00, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

List of Scheduled Monuments

Are there any lists of Welsh Scheduled Monuments? I now have an up to date spreadsheet from Cadw, and could fairly rapidly turn that into lists - perhaps both by Unitary Authority and by monument type. (Castles and Hillforts are the relevant ones I have found so far). One of the challenges will be to match Cadw's name for each site with existing site articles. I am hoping to add coord data, to link to GeoGroup maps. RobinLeicester (talk) 17:51, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Geographical division dispute

I feel it is a good idea to have a sensible discussion regarding geographical divisions on many Welsh articles, such as List of bridges in Wales, List of golf courses in the United Kingdom, List of gardens in Wales, List of monastic houses in Wales and List of lighthouses in Wales. Although List of castles in Wales and List of places in Wales is logical. Many of these articles list Historic counties (that do not exist), preserved counties and unitary authorities. I feel that we need uniformity. SethWhales ^talk 19:40, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

I would be very pleased to see guidance. The Cadw Monument spreadsheet includes 'Historic County' and 'Unitary Authority' for each site - but their historic counties are Flintshire, Denbighshire, etc rather than the more recent big counties. Can the UAs safely be used, or will another re-organising moment sweep them away? I am content for someone else to call that judgement - but would ask that whatever system is selected, there is an easy way to find which area a particular community (and its settlements) is in. RobinLeicester (talk) 22:17, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

That's where the problem arises. For locating geographical things, Dyfed and Powys (preserved counties?) are so vast they don't really help identify a location. The new administrative authorities work okay for Dyfed (Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire and Cardiganshire/Ceridigion) but for the South Wales area become geographically quite small - I've no idea of the boundaries of Torfaen, for example! In my view, the old pre-1974 counties work well, but is there some way of looking on a map to see where their boundaries lies? I agree, consistency would be good, but Welsh administrative/political boundaries seem to have an identity crisis, argh! Sionk (talk) 23:44, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

People may have seen this page already, but in case not there's a guideline at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names). If you scroll down, you'll see that the format for Wales is [[placename]], but where disambiguation is required it's [[placename, principal area]]. According to that page, we shouldn't be using the former postal counties (74-96) for disambiguating places.--Pondle (talk) 00:22, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

This discussion has been transferred from Talk:List of bridges in Wales. I agree with Sionk that the principal areas are not a good choice for geographical divisions, and my own preference is for the set of 9 divisions I adopted for the List of bridges in Wales. This division starts from the Preserved Counties, but splits Dyfed into its 3 principal areas (Pembrokeshire, Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion), splits the Preserved County of Gwynedd into Principal Areas Gwynedd and Anglesey, and combines South, Mid and West Glamorgan into, simply, Glamorgan. Powys is still huge, but otherwise this provides a reasonably balanced set of geographical areas, retains a good number of the historic and widely-known divisions, and utilises only current boundaries. Each division comprises one or more Principal Areas, and a key could be provided listing all the Principal Areas within each division. I should very much like this to be recognised as an acceptable and useful set of geographical divisions for Wales. There is no need for division to be made into individual Principal Areas - it is not done in English lists - unless the local authority has a relevant role, as for instance List of schools in Wales. Paravane (talk) 15:30, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

I thought it might help to see that scenario set out in a table. It is clearly a pick and mix from the two systems (Caerphilly was a mix from both Mid-Glam and Gwent so could be included in either). If I have unstood Paravene's scenario correctly, this is the table:-

Preserved County	Suggested Area	Principal Area (Unitary Authority)
Gwynedd	Anglesey	Isle of Anglesey
	Gwynedd	Gwynedd
Clwyd	Clwyd	Conwy
		Denbighshire
		Flintshire
		Wrexham
Powys	Powys	Powys
Dyfed	Ceredigion	Ceredigion
	Pembrokeshire	Pembrokeshire
	Carmarthenshire	Carmarthenshire
West Glamorgan	Glamorgan	Swansea
		Neath Port Talbot
Mid Glamorgan
		Bridgend
		Rhondda Cynon Taf
		Merthyr Tydfil
South Glamorgan		Vale of Glamorgan
		Cardiff
Gwent	Gwent	Caerphilly
		Blaenau Gwent
		Torfaen
		Newport
		Monmouthshire

RobinLeicester (talk) 17:39, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

That seems to be correct. I think that, to be consistent, Caerphilly must be included in Gwent, one of several small adjustments made to the Preserved Counties to align them with the new Principal Areas. Paravane (talk) 18:18, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Not sure how adding Caerphilly into Gwent is consistent, especially when it has never been in Gwent. My view is that if we do have to split Wales up geographically (even if it it is not perfect) and considering no political boundaries (anywhere in the World) ever splits countries up equally (for example the USA, where the you have the West, Midwest, Northeast and South. The Northeast is very small geographically to the rest of the USA (see File:Map of the North Eastern United States.svg), but has the greatest population) I would say it is best to arrange Wales in terms of the Preserved counties. It is not perfect, but at least everyone would know that Caerphilly is related to (Mid) Glamorgan and that the exact boundaries are known (see File:WalesMidGlamorgan.png for example). SethWhales ^talk 18:49, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

The Preserved counties of Wales#Boundary changes section says that Caerphilly borough is now in Gwent. This debate reminds us that future boundary changes are going to happen, and Wikipedia will have to reflect that. For now, looking at an example: Any list that uses {{coord}} hits the buffers at around 500 entries. There are 1,000 Scheduled Monuments in Powys, so even at UA level, that one will have to be subdivided (using Historic counties?). Dyfed has at least as many, so subdividing into UAs would make sense. A pragmatic approach might be to use UAs and Preserved Counties depending on the list size in question. That would just leave a question of whether it was ever appropriate to aggregate Glamorgan as a single entity. RobinLeicester (talk) 00:12, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I do apologise, as Caerphilly had never been in Monmouthshire (historic county) or Gwent (1974 and 1996) or the Caerphilly County Borough, I assumed that was the case, not knowing that it is in a Preserved county of Gwent on 11 March 2002...Does anyone in Wales know that preserved counties still exist ???? That is another discussion...still some type of agreement I feel is necessary. SethWhales ^talk 06:25, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

What is this "suggested area" in the above table? We cannot go inventing another pick-and-mix geographical system. That is entirely original research. The preserved counties are too large and lack recognition. The principal areas are too small in some cases and too large in others and overlap with town names in many cases. When Cadw lists historic county it is just that -- the Historic counties of Wales. If one wants to see them on a Google map, try this. Owain (talk) 07:35, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree that we should not use original research to devise classifications of our own. When dealing with historic sites I think there is a strong case for using the historic counties as the basis. But, equally, where sites are currently maintained and are visitor attractions, it should be easy to use sortable tables which include current administrative areas as well. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:54, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

That sounds like a perfect solution! Owain (talk) 08:11, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I 100% agree that we cannot have original research on Wikipedia. I'm happy generally with the solution, however how would a site be classified as an "historic site" or "currently maintained"...with "visitor attractions". For instance, List of castles in Wales is currently listed with Unitary Authorities, yet they relate to an historic building. List of bridges in Wales deal with historic and modern bridges. I'm happy with dividing the two types of articles relating to Wales to this way, but we would still need some very specific guidance as to when it would be divided by historic counties of Wales and when it would be divided by current administrative areas? SethWhales ^talk 09:53, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I guess for a large table it wouldn't be sub-divided into sections, but there would be two sortable columns -- for historic county and local authority area. That way there wouldn't need to be any specific guidance. Owain (talk) 10:15, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I think that's right. In my response I didn't mean to suggest that we should identify, editorially, which sort of features should be grouped by historic counties and which by administrative areas - sortable tables (which I've never compiled myself, but do not seem especially problematic to use) would allow each user to group them in whatever way they wished. Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:50, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Where a historic county is known and relevant, I am sure it is helpful to state it. But, eg the Listed Buildings sources don't tell us Historic County, only the UA and community, and quite a few UAs will be split over more than one Historic County. That only become really relevant for lists that are too big for a single 'Wales' page, but plenty of other lists currently find sub-dividing helpful to give some structure to the page, and also to have summarising paragraphs about different parts of the country. The virtue (possibly the only virtue) of Preserved Counties is that some one else has decided how to aggregate UAs together, rather than an editor having to decide (research) each location. If that is not helpful, is it too problematic to aim for Principle Area (ie Unitary Authorities) as the default division? RobinLeicester (talk) 11:15, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

It is absurd to describe as original research the grouping of Principal Areas to form convenient divisions. Some lists may prefer to be organised into North Wales, South Wales, Mid Wales etc, is this to be forbidden also? Paravane (talk) 12:13, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Where it is used consistently then that is fine. It's the mixing-and-matching that is not allowed. Owain (talk) 12:42, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

(e/c) Whether or not it's called "original research", it's still not especially convenient for readers. The historic counties and the principal areas each have clear boundaries, and we should use those - separately or together - rather than ad hoc classifications. A term like "South Wales" is a useful general descriptive term, but it is not sufficiently precise for classifying features or articles, because its boundaries are indeterminate. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:46, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree that 'convenience for readers' should be a primary consideration. It would be very much preferable to get some feedback from a large number of readers as to how convenient they find a given set of divisions, rather than rely upon the assumptions of a few editors. Paravane (talk) 14:25, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

The point about sortable tables is that readers choose their own classification, rather than having it decided for them. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:03, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

This applies only to a list in the form of a single sortable table, and even then the reader can only choose from the classifications offered. Is it being suggested that all tables in Wales - but not in England or elsewhere - are to be required to be in this form? Some such lists will be very large, and may be unacceptably slow to edit. For any list permitted to be divided into separate tables for different regions, the same question persists, what sets of divisions are to be permitted? Paravane (talk) 15:52, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

Wales is equivalent to a region of England in size terms — How big are you expecting these lists to be? Personally I find breaking tables up into sections to be incredibly awkward to use as it is not possible to sort the entire lot on a given column. If lists are really incredibly long and require breaking up then a common-sense approach would be to use whichever sensible and consistent set of areas provides the best result. For example a list of Fire stations in Wales could be broken up into sections based on the fire service areas. Owain (talk) 17:41, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

I am reluctant to throw in yet another scheme, but the Office of National Statistics uses a hierarchy of groupings for europe-wide statistics: NUTS 1,2,3. For Wales, NUTS1 is all of Wales, NUTS2 is 2 groups: 'West Wales and The Valleys', and 'East Wales'. NUTS3 subdivides these into 12 areas of between 1 and 3 UAs. All use the UA boundaries. Full details here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RobinLeicester (talk • contribs) 22:19, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

The NUTS3 scheme divides Wales into 12 areas of between 1 and 3 UAs. The scheme adopted for the List of bridges in Wales and other pages divides Wales into 9 areas of between 1 and 7 UAs. Does someone want to argue that the Office of National Statistics is using a scheme which is not 'sensible and consistent'? Or to argue that one of these schemes is sensible and consistent, and the other is not? Paravane (talk) 15:42, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

The NUTS scheme is in official use; your proposal is not. That's the fundamental difference, though I happen to think the NUTS grouping isn't useful here either, as it is not commonly understood. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:01, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Is it therefore to be argued that any grouping not 'in official use' should be banned? Paravane (talk) 17:33, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't know why you keep talking about "banning" anything. Please don't. This is a conversation attempting to reach a consensus on what is best. Ghmyrtle (talk) 06:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Look above, e.g. 'It's the mixing-and-matching that is not allowed', 'we should not use original research...'. The tenor of this discussion has been that only the historic counties, the Preserved Counties or the UAs are acceptable options for geographical divisions, which would rather prejudice the outcome of the conversation. I would argue that what is best is what readers - for the most part less familiar with Welsh geography than we are - find most convenient and understandable, and that a wider input of opinions is needed to reach a sensible consensus. Paravane (talk) 10:53, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

Personally, Paravane's 'mix-and-match' divisions don't create a problem with me. The list of bridges uses recognised areas, be they preserved counties or something else, therefore they haven't been invented by anyone, therefore not 'original research' in any sense. I agree we need to use areas that are generally recognisable by people not intimately familiar with Wales. Looking at the other lists, England is generally divided by county. If the purists here will only settle for rigid consistency, then the preserved counties will be out best option. Granted Dyfed and Powys are very big areas, but that is simply a georgaphical and political fact, a minor inconvenience in comparison with someone here having to re-organise all the lists into some other system. Hope that makes sense! Sionk (talk) 16:43, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

After adding further examples, I've converted the material at List of mountain passes of Wales into a sortable table and included 'historic county' and 'principal area. columns. Comment (and indeed any corrections) welcome! cheers Geopersona (talk) 06:32, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Trefael Stone

Could somebody create an article for Trefael Stone? It seems relevant enough: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18172598 Best Regards. 85.50.248.101 (talk) 02:18, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

If someone is able to take a photo of it, and upload it to wikimedia commons I will create a page for it. There are quite a few reports on the dig, but surprisingly, no pd pictures I have found. RobinLeicester (talk) 23:21, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Wales setting, Welsh fantasy

At Category talk: Novels set in Wales and Category talk: Welsh fantasy, I have inquired about the intended scope of the two categories with attention, essentially, to [a] setting in mythological Wales, fictionalized Wales, and Wales or Welsh-inspired imaginary world; [b] retelling and adaptation of clearly Welsh material, and Welsh-inspired material.

I have read WP:UKNATIONALS and much of its prior discussion. I have skimmed Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wales/Archive 2#Literature and bookmarked it for a return when I follow some links. Both are educational and mainly beside the points that I have raised, I think.

By the way, category Category:Welsh fantasy actually includes the articles on Tir na n-Og Award-winning books, English-language category --those four having their own en:wikipedia articles-- and one book that would have won the same award if published a few years later. --P64 (talk) 20:58, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Proposal: subcategory for Monmouth buildings/structures

I have suggested a new subcategory Category:Buildings and structures in Monmouth. Discussion is at Category talk:Buildings and structures in Monmouthshire.—A bit iffy (talk) 17:17, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

It now appears the proposed category does exist, but with a slightly different name of Category:Buildings and structures in Monmouth, Wales.—A bit iffy (talk) 18:31, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Article proposed for deletion

I've prodded the article Morfa Mawddach, as I cannot verify the existence of a village so named. I am not, however, an expert on Welsh villages, so any help with evidence (or absence of evidence) would be appreciated. Deor (talk) 17:19, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Looking for a post-1284 Map of Wales

I've seen, in an article, a map of Wales post-Statute of Rhuddlan showing the 6 new counties in green with the rest of the country coloured brown for the Marcher Lords. But I can't find it in Commons and I can't remember which article it's in - it's in none of the obvious ones. Does anyone know of it? Thanks. DeCausa (talk) 09:39, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

This one? FruitMonkey (talk) 11:32, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

...which is a (not very well) redrawn version of this. You could ask Wikipedia:Graphic Lab/Map workshop to draw a better version - or to draw something else, if you tell them what needs mapping. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:54, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks to both! DeCausa (talk) 12:01, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Welsh actors

Christian Bale, Michael Sheen, Anthony Hopkins, Ioan Gruffudd, Keith Allen, Patrick Mower, Hywel Bennett, Tom Jones, Sian Phillips, Johnathon Pryce, Terry Jones, Dawn French, and Griff Rhys Jones, are all Wesh actors. Not to mention Richard Burton and Ray Milland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.149.186.190 (talk) 09:25, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. See Category:Welsh actors for many more. What is your point? Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:48, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Traditional Welsh poetic metres

Today I created the article Cerdd dafod after it was mentioned in the Dylan Thomas page. I then discovered that Cerdd dafod is sort of covered in Traditional Welsh poetic metres. I think the articles could be merged as the older Traditional Welsh poetic metres and Cerdd dafod don't appear to have much cross over even though they appear to be the same subject. Does anyone have an opinion on if they should be merged and if so under what title. Cheers, FruitMonkey (talk) 16:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Y Yes, I personally tend to think that the content of Cerdd dafod, given that it appears to be an umbrella term, should be merged into the introduction of Traditional Welsh poetic metres, probably retaining this latter title (although little links to it). Let's see what others say. Hogyn Lleol ★ ^(chat) 19:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Translation of Gorsafawddacha'idraigodanheddogleddollônpenrhynareurdraethceredigion

I find the translation of Gorsafawddacha'idraigodanheddogleddollônpenrhynareurdraethceredigion given here and here rather odd (in particular "a'idraigodanhedd" is a peculiar way to say "and its dragon teeth" in Welsh). I'm loth to change it, however, just in case that is indeed what it was supposed to mean and it's just a cack-handed naming attempt rather than a cack-handed translation attempt, if you see what I mean. Please comment here if you have any thoughts. Thanks. garik (talk) 15:55, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, I've been bold and edited the translation. If anyone has a proper idea of who came up with the name and what they intended it to mean (if not what it apparently does mean), please come forward. garik (talk) 23:05, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Idole

Can anyone fill in a bit more information about Idole in Carmarthenshire? Many thanks! -- RexRowan  Talk  19:24, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

BBC Wales Radio Lectures article on the Welsh wiki

Thought this might be of interest, Darlithoedd Radio BBC Cymru on the Welsh wiki has a table listing the lectures from 1938 up until 1994. Don't know if 1994 was was the last one or not, but the info was taken form the publish hard copy of the 1994 lecture. This is the series of lectures that incluyded Tynged yr Iaith by Saunders Lewis.As it's mainly in table format it's easy to transfer here if anyone's interested.--92.245.247.100 (talk) 11:28, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Bro TV show

Hallo, Editing the dab page at Bro I found the entry:

• Bro, a Welsh television series on S4C

There's no mention of this at S4C or even in List of Welsh-language programmes, but there's a website at http://www.s4c.co.uk/crwydrocymru/e_bro.shtml . Is the programme notable? If so, could someone perhaps create a stub for it, or at least give it a mention in one or other of the above-linked pages, because otherwise it needs to come out of the dab page. Thanks. PamD 07:48, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I've now tweaked the link to make it:

• Bro, a Welsh television series copresented by Shân Cothi

as it gets a mention on her page (as on Iolo Williams). PamD 07:54, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Cân i Gymru

Hello fellow wikipedians of Project Wales.

A member of Project Eurovision came across the article Cân i Gymru, and asked if it fell under the scope of Project Eurovision. Personally I vaguely remember reading something that the show was based on the Eurovision Song Contest, and potentially the national selection process in the event Wales were to participate at Eurovision in their own right. I have temporarily added WP:ESC banner to the article, but also noticed ProjectWales banner was missing have have subsequently added your project banner to it also.

Would it be possible for a member of your project to do a flying visit to the article and assess it, and also to comment at WT:ESC to shed some light as to whether the show is in fact a Welsh version of Eurovision. Much regards, Wesley♦^Mouse 14:39, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Category:Parliamentary constituencies in Wales

Category:Parliamentary constituencies in Wales, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has been nominated for renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:10, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Sibyl de Neufmarché

Sibyl de Neufmarché, an article that your project may be interested in, has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the good article reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. AIRcorn (talk) 08:14, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Valley Lines

Template:Valley Lines has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Redrose64 (talk) 19:42, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Wales Coast Path

Editors interested in whether Wales is better described as a "country" or as a "devolved administration" are welcome to comment on the matter at Talk:Wales Coast Path. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:54, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Editors interested in the actual coastal path are more welcome still!Wedensambo (talk) 14:43, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Capel Dewi

This is probably the wrong time of the year for this, but it may interest someone that I've just started three articles on the three Capel Dewis in Wales. It may be a nice DYK if anyone is interested to build the articles into start level status. One has the only commercial, powered woollen mill left in Wales, while another has a LADAR array (?) which was used to monitor the Volcanic cloud created by Eyjafjallajökull. Just a thought. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:17, 22 December 2012 (UTC)