Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/3

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Introduction

The purpose of this discussion page is to manage the Level 3 list of 1,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles (e.g. at WP:FA and WP:GA status). See the table to the right (on desktop) or above (on mobile) showing the historic distribution of Level 3 articles.

All level 3 nominations must be of an article already listed at level 4.

All proposals must remain open for !voting for a minimum of 15 days, after which:

1. After 15 days it may be closed as PASSED if there are (a) 5 or more supports, AND (b) at least two-thirds are in support.
2. After 30 days it may be closed as FAILED if there are (a) 3 or more opposes, AND (b) it failed to earn two-thirds support.
3. After 30 days it may be closed as NO CONSENSUS if the proposal hasn't received any !votes for +30 days, regardless of tally.
4. After 60 days it may be closed as NO CONSENSUS if the proposal has (a) less than 5 supports, AND (b) less than two-thirds support.

Nominations should be left open beyond the minimum if they have a reasonable chance of passing. An informed discussion with more editor participation produces an improved and more stable final list, so be patient with the process.

For reference, the following times apply for today:

• 15 days ago was: 00:52, 6 June 2024 (UTC) ()
• 30 days ago was: 00:52, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
• 60 days ago was: 00:52, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Remove Mobile phone  3

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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We already list Telephone at this level which should cover all phones. Interstellarity (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 23:08, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. The Blue Rider 13:19, 24 March 2024 (UTC)]
3. Support per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 20:54, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Important in economy and culture. Telephone is more like history topic. --Thi (talk) 09:23, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose - mobile phone covers smartphone, but telephone does not. We need to have either mobile phone or smartphone here. starship.paint (RUN) 09:27, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose, at least one of Mobile phone  3 or Smartphone  4 should be Level 3. Aszx5000 (talk) 15:43, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

1. I would support swap with Smartphone  4-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   I don't have an opinion on the swap just yet, But I would fine with it if other people think it would be OK. Interstellarity (talk) 01:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

   I would also support Smartphone at V3, which has had a massive global impact. Aszx5000 (talk) 18:02, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Catherine the Great for Peter the Great

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Peter is one of the key rulers that changed Russia totally. There is even such expression "pre-Petrine Russia", there is no such expression as "pre-Catherinian Russia". Russian history is clearly divided into before (with the boyars, without any schools, without navy) and after Peter (with Governing Senate, with Academy of Sciences, with a big navy). His importance cannot be overstated. Interstellarity (talk) 13:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 13:04, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support addition Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 22:13, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose We don't list key rulers of all sorts of countries, but we do need some significant historical women on the list. Cobblet (talk) 15:27, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose per Cobblet (although Russia is a huge country and at times a huge Empire, so perhaps we could have them both)? Aszx5000 (talk) 10:49, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
3. I strongly oppose the removal of Catherine the Great, but I'm very much open to the addition of Peter the Great. Catherine II was a pivotal figure during the European Age of Enlightenment and served during the height of Russia's imperial evolution. Peter the Great would be a very good inclusion as he played an enormous role in Russian history, but that would mean a third Russian/Soviet leader in the list alongside Stalin and Catherine II (Egypt has three so I guess it wouldn't be unprecedented). Idiosincrático (talk) 16:14, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

1. Going to reserve judgment on Peter the Great because I'm not a huge expert on Russian history but it is worth nothing that a proposal to remove Catherine the Great recently lost 6-2 and I think Grnrchst's reasoning on that thread is pretty compelling. I would vote again to reject any proposal that wants to remove Catherine the Great. Aurangzebra (talk) 05:17, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap: Remove Hunting  3 Bow and arrow  3, add Service (economics)  4

Under Economy  3, we currently list four industries within the Primary sector of the economy: Agriculture  2, Fishing  3, Hunting  3, and Mining  3; and two industries within the Secondary sector of the economy: Manufacturing  2 and Construction  3. We do not list any industry within the Tertiary sector of the economy at Level 3 or above.

Such a distribution between the three sectors is imbalanced, and within the primary sector, hunting is arguably the least important: most animals produced for human consumption (either for meat or animal products) are farmed (i.e., agriculture), not hunted. A case can be made for removing fishing instead, given that it is a subtopic of agriculture and seafood comprises a minority of meat consumed in most countries around the world, however it is probably a more widespread practice than hunting, so my preference is for the removal of hunting. Given that the tertiary sector is mostly about the provision of services, adding Service (economics)  4 makes sense.

Support

1. As nominator. feminist🩸 (talk) 08:50, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

   UPDATE: agreed, definitely remove Bow and arrow  3 first. At best it's a subtopic of Hunting or Archery  4. feminist🩸 (talk) 02:53, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

2. Support swap with Bow and arrow  3. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. Gizza (talk) 04:22, 3 May 2024 (UTC) Support the original proposal of removing hunting and adding service. Oppose the new swap of removing Bow and arrow (which is both a significant hunting tool and military weapon) and adding service. Gizza (talk) 01:10, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Support removal --Thi (talk) 12:00, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
5. Support. Both removal and swap. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:35, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Bow and arrow should be removed first. --Thi (talk) 09:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose, Hunting was the only way all of humanity fed itself for over 90% of its existence, before agriculture was common. Food and Agriculture are at level 2, at level 3 we start listing several animals and food and drink types and crops, I would prefer to keep hunting, seems more vital in the long run than soybean, cheese, tea, chicken, egg. I also agree hunting may be more vital than bow and arrow.  Carlwev  12:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

• @Carlwev and DaGizza: - the nomination has been changed. starship.paint (RUN) 09:35, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Remove Abstract algebra  3

We are over quota at 1,003, and we already list Algebra  3 which includes abstract algebra. Something has got to go here. starship.paint (RUN) 09:47, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:48, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 11:47, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:36, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
5. λ NegativeMP1 15:34, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Jainism  3

We are over quota at 1,003. Jainism has only around 5 million followers. Compare to Judaism  3 (15+ million), Sikhism  3 (25+ million), Buddhism  3 (500+ million).... starship.paint (RUN) 14:35, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:54, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. --Thi (talk) 18:10, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. It's importance has waned sufficiently to downgrade. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:37, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose as strongly as possible. While Jainism may have fewer followers today then other major religions, it has major historical significance. It is one of the worlds oldest religions, and had impacts on Alexander the Greats campaign. There are many other articles that could be moved down.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 18:45, 11 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose per above. All of the world's major religions are key topics that are covered in traditional encyclopedias. Gizza (talk) 01:08, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Building  4

Extremely common structure, most of us live in them, many of us work in them, also used for shopping, schooling, airports etc. starship.paint (RUN) 02:50, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 02:50, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 13:39, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 12:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
5. λ NegativeMP1 15:34, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ali  4

Since we have Martin Luther  3 on here, I think we should have Ali on here as well. The whole issue on whether he should have succeeded Muhammad immediately is the reason why Islam is mostly split into Sunni and Shia, and unlike the relationship between Catholicism and Protestantism, tensions between the two branches still flare up from time to time.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:07, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Ali is definitely second to Muhammad in Islam. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:49, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Fair to have a second person for Islam. starship.paint (RUN) 13:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
4. λ NegativeMP1 15:33, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• @SailorGardevoir: - can you propose to remove something? We are already over quota. I firmly believe that nominators and supporters should do the work to keep us within the quota, instead of having other editors have to put in the effort to find more articles to remove. starship.paint (RUN) 07:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Do I have to pick a religious figure? SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:07, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  @SailorGardevoir: - no, there aren't quotas here. starship.paint (RUN) 12:16, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Remove Combinatorics  3

Seems more suited for V4 when you compare the other V3 Math articles in that section (e.g. 0  3, Complex number  3, Integer  3, Fraction  3). Yes, it's Top-importance for Math, but so are another 200+ articles. starship.paint (RUN) 09:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:23, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. Aszx5000 (talk)
4. λ NegativeMP1 15:34, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Henry Ford  3

He is probably the most important businessperson we have on here, but I'm not sure if he's that important to warrant being a Level 3.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:28, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. It's about the representation, same reason we have two obscure speed skaters at V4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 21:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

   @OhnoitsvileplumeXD: - representation of what? Business? American cars? Why him and not say, Bill Gates  4 or Steve Jobs  4, given the ubiquity of Microsoft computers and iPhones? starship.paint (RUN) 02:28, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

   BLPs do not belong at V3, even if they are as notable as Gates, but I am not as opposed to Jobs and would support his addition if Ford must be removed. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:33, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

   I just want to make this clear, I'm really just doing this so I can get my Ali proposal passed. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:23, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

2. Oppose there are some business people whose companies changed the course of human history, Henry Ford  3 is definitely one, as is Steve Jobs  4 (who should be at level 3). In contrast, Bill Gates  4 got very rich on an over-priced OS system and is not at the same level. Aszx5000 (talk) 16:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
3. I'd say both him and Steve Jobs could be on this level at the same time. They're both worthy. λ NegativeMP1 15:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Peter the Great  4 (no swap with Catherine)

There are plenty of editors that suggested a straight addition rather than a swap with Catherine. My reasoning is in the above discussion. Interstellarity (talk) 11:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 11:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Meh, weak support; while he is probably fit for this level, we are over quota at V3 and I'm afraid it'd overrepresent Russia in that regard (Peter, Catherine, and Stalin) since we don't have key rulers of all sorts of countries, such as Mustafa Kemal Atatürk  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 12:06, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose. When I look at the names on Wikipedia:Vital Articles#Leaders and politicians, I can't see Peter the Great as being as influential. I also think that Cleopatra  3, Nelson Mandela  3, and possibly Joan of Arc  3 should also not be on this list (i.e. they are more celebrity-notable than as politically influential as the others on this list). Aszx5000 (talk) 16:27, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

   i.e. Constantine the Great  4, would easily rank well ahead of these three (and Peter). Aszx5000 (talk) 16:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

   i.e. Franklin D. Roosevelt  4 should be ranked alongside Adolf Hitler  3 and Joseph Stalin  3 as the biggest leaders of the 20th century (and Roosevelt took American out of the Great Depression). Aszx5000 (talk) 16:37, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

   Joan of Arc would probably come to mind if I was asked for the ten most vital women to world history. She should be kept, especially since we removed Frida Kahlo  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 18:28, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

   That makes sense to me. Aszx5000 (talk) 18:54, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

2. Oppose - Russian representation is sufficient as it is. Also much less important than e.g. Green Revolution which was recently removed. Gizza (talk) 00:45, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

• @Interstellarity: - any other article you would like to propose to remove, or any support for any removals listed above? starship.paint (RUN) 03:29, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  I think we should remove an article since we are over quota. Calligraphy seems to make the most sense being removed since there are other topics more important. Interstellarity (talk) 09:47, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Swap: Remove South Korea  3, Add Korea  4

We should list Korea  4 over South Korea  3 since we have broad coverage of the whole Korean Peninsula. The broad coverage of the Korean Peninsula and its history is more vital than the country of South Korea itself. At level 4, we list History of Korea while History of South Korea and History of North Korea are at level 5. We should do a similar thing at this level. Interstellarity (talk) 16:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Interstellarity (talk) 16:58, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
3. Korea has been unified for most of its history; South Korea, throughout its short-history, is most certaintly not a level 3 country. The Blue Rider 12:50, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

   Ukraine is also a relatively recent social construct that was part of Russia or the Commonwealth for the majority of its history in the past millennium. It is also significantly less vital than South Korea. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 17:17, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Strong oppose; South Korea is no doubt a vital country at V3, and I'd much rather add North Korea than Korea. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose History of East Asia is listed at this level. --Thi (talk) 09:13, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

If we're adding more regions as opposed to countries, let's start with the Balkans  4. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 23:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Contra the supporters, the country list at VA3 is much more from a modern perspective than a historical perspective. If we want to change that fact, first priority is removing United Arab Emirates  3. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:54, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

Due to the country's geopolitical significance, it seems reasonable to list either the UAE or Dubai at this level. I might support a swap with Iraq, though. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 01:16, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Move Laozi and Homer to other categories

We moved Moses and Abraham out of people and into religion because they were not placed into people at level 4. As I understand, the reasoning for not placing them there at level 4 is because historians generally consider them legendary figures and not real people. But I can't figure out why this would only apply to religious figures. In level 3, Homer and Laozi, in particular, are widely considered to be not real people. Both are generally believed to have been invented to be writers for the works now attributed to them, which were actually written by various other people. I suggest moving them out of the people category because they are not people. As to the new destinations, I suggest under literature for Homer and under Eastern philosophy next to Confucianism for Laozi. I believe those are the only two non-people remaining in the people category, but if I am mistaken let me know and I'll add that to the list. Ladtrack (talk) 07:12, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Support

Oppose

Neutral

Discussion