Wikipedia talk:Did you know/Archive 200

Archive 195

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Archive 199

Archive 200

What makes a good DYK image?

I'm looking at WP:DYKIMG where it says The media must be suitable, attractive, and interesting; images in particular must display well in the small size of the {{Main page image/DYK}} template and find that description lacking. For sure, requiring it to be "suitable" is a tautology, and I'm not sure what it means for an image to be "interesting" in a DYK context. As for "display well", that is often a point of contention when I mention that an image isn't good. So, what do folks think would be more specific attributes that we should mention in DYKIMG to help improve our image selections? RoySmith (talk) 16:36, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

• It's meant to be vague and subjective? --evrik ^(talk) 16:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

  Far be it from me to object to snark, as it's a style of discourse I often employ myself. But my intent here was to see if we could build consensus on a more practical guide to hook authors and reviewers regarding image selection. RoySmith (talk) 16:51, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

• Given the current interminable RfC, I'm okay with the vagueness. --evrik ^(talk) 16:54, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Much of that is too nebulous to be useful, I'd be inclined to yeet everything between the two 'must's. Images shouldn't be gratuitous, but I think that's covered within WP:DYKGRAT, I don't think it warrants repetition.--Launchballer 19:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

I would have thought the recent one on 3 June was too grainy and low quality and just another portrait. —Bagumba (talk) 02:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes we try to balance the availability. It's really easy to get a great shot of an existing building. Not so much an Indonesian doctor who died in 1983. That doesn't mean we should run lots of images of buildings. Valereee (talk) 18:43, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

yes. --evrik ^(talk) 19:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

If we go off that case, WP:DYKIMG would more accurately be The media must be suitable, attractive, and interesting. —Bagumba (talk) 00:22, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there should be any requirement to be attractive. But I do think they need to be recognizable. Most of the photos I object to fail on the recognizable aspect. RoySmith (talk) 00:32, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

We need to refine our palates rather than write new recipes. --evrik ^(talk) 01:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Template:Did you know nominations/Kenneth Law

Considering we currently have an ongoing discussion about how to handle negative BLP hooks, this nomination may be of interest. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 14:19, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

An almost wholly negative article about a BLP subject who has ongoing criminal court proceedings? DYK shouldn't touch this with a bargepole. Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:53, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I touched it. Now we'll see what happens. --evrik ^(talk) 00:03, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I failed the nomination per WP:DYKHOOKBLP. RoySmith (talk) 00:19, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it fits the criteria you've cited. It's factual and relatively neutral. --evrik ^(talk) 00:33, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Factual or not, "Hooks that unduly focus on negative aspects of living persons should be avoided" It also says "this is a stricter requirement than BLP as a whole". RoySmith (talk) 00:38, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The hook itself is relatively neutral. --evrik ^(talk) 00:45, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I've invited comments from WP:BLPN.[1] I don't see a neutral hook in the article. Everything is either about pending charges, or it's attributed to Law himself. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

If you were to write on say ... Charles Manson, even a neutral hook may be perceived as somewhat negative. --evrik ^(talk) 21:30, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

... that the Beach Boys did a cover of a Charles Manson song? RoySmith (talk) 22:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll approve that hook when you write the article. --evrik ^(talk) 22:41, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

The article is written, that's where the hook came from. I'll keep it in mind if it ever reaches GA. RoySmith (talk) 23:02, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Saw this through the BLPN notification. Regardless of whether WP:DYKHOOKBLP applies, putting an article on the mainpage about someone who is currently on trial for fourteen counts of murder seems like a terrible idea. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 08:39, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I've rejected. This seems to be another Tate case. Almost identical: Law himself says he sold the stuff. Ping to Bremps. Valereee (talk) 10:10, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure why this is a terrible idea. People do bad things. If the person is notable for doing bad things, the hooks may be uncomfortable. Also, I don't think this should have been closed as it does a disservice to the author. --evrik ^(talk) 14:01, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Evrik, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that you think every borderline nomination should be accepted. You should be aware that this is a fringe viewpoint. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

@AirshipJungleman29: I've never said that. What I've seen in the last month is a hyper focus on the negative BLPs. I think we've lost perspective. Also, I don't appreciate your negative personal attack. --evrik ^(talk) 16:19, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

"I've never said that." You are correct evrik, I said it. Can you point out that negative personal attack you refer to, perhaps keeping this nomination in mind? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:27, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going down this rabbit hole. --evrik ^(talk) 16:29, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Excellent, so will you strike that WP:PA accusation? ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:43, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

You strike your comment. I'll strike mine. --evrik ^(talk) 16:48, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Negative? I thought this was interesting. :D Valereee (talk) 17:01, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

you think every borderline nomination should be accepted. You should be aware that this is a fringe viewpoint. This comment steps away from the question of content ('should this nomination be approved?'; 'what sort of hooks should DYK approve?') and becomes an accusation of character ('the way evrik thinks about DYK is abnormal and implicitly bad'; 'evrik approves almost everything, implicitly thoughtlessly'. I would also encourage AirshipJungleman29 to withdraw this personal attack against evrik. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 04:25, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

If the person in question had been convicted of doing terrible things, I might have a less strong opinion, but until Law's trial is actually concluded he is notable for being accused of doing terrible things. The fact that people look at this hook an conclude "this man has done bad things" before the court has actually determined whether he did or not is precisely one of the main reason that this seems like a terrible idea. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:36, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi. Original article author here. I understand this is a very sensitive issue, but I want to clarify that Law has admitted to selling sodium nitrite. The only remaining question is whether he did so illegally, which has to do with interpretation of the law instead of facts. There's very little disagreement on what actually happened. Bremps... 17:23, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I am aware that Laws admits to selling sodium nitrite. That isn't really relevant to my objection. He is solely notable for being accused of 14 counts of murder and his suspected involvement in possibly hundreds of deaths. While those charges remain unresolved I cannot see how putting him on the front page of Wikipedia, especially on DYK, which is not at all set up for nuance, can possibly be a good idea. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 20:29, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

The question of whether or not he actually did it is a separate question from if it is a good idea to highlight that on the main page. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:16, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello. Didn't Andrew Tate get featured on DYK? I understand there are arguments to not featuring Law on DYK, but citing Tate isn't a good example because Tate got featured on DYK. Bremps... 17:25, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it ran, and there was concern among others in the community that the hook was too negative. Others are concerned that we shouldn't run a hook that normalizes what the person is mostly famous for. There's been a boatload of discussion about how to handle future similar cases, and I think this is a good example because it's a very similar case: in each case, the person said this about themself. Valereee (talk) 17:44, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

That was a case of running something up the flagpole, you see who salutes and you see who shoots. --evrik ^(talk) 02:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Alexei Starobinsky

@TheSandDoctor, Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus, and Sgubaldo: The article says "his work remained unknown outside of the Soviet Union", but the hook says "remained unknown in the West" which isn't the same thing. RoySmith (talk) 14:35, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

@RoySmith, Piotrus, and Sgubaldo: Well, I guess that shows a misconception on my end. I thought of the Eastern Bloc. The source states "It was a very complicated model based on a quantum theory of gravity, but it caused a sensation among cosmologists in what was then the Soviet Union....Unfortunately, because of the difficulties Soviet scientists still had in travelling abroad or communicating with colleagues outside the Soviet sphere of influence at that time, the news did not spread outside their country.”, which seems to imply it is talking about the Bloc ("Soviet sphere of influence") yet then contradicts itself by talking of country in the singular. TheSandDoctor ^Talk 14:59, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

@RoySmith @TheSandDoctor I’m happy to change either the article or the hook if necessary. Let me know. Sgubaldo (talk) 15:34, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I updated the hook to say Soviet Union, so I think we're good now. RoySmith (talk) 15:56, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Sgubaldo (talk) 17:25, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, @RoySmith:! TheSandDoctor ^Talk 18:25, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

You are right the source is contradictory. I'd go with Soviet Union for the hook to be safe. Alexei Starobinsky does not have a pl wiki article, so I cannot (quickly) check Polish sources (since I am not 100% sure what would be the spelling of his name in Polish); and whatever I found would be ORish anyway (as in, whether he was cited or not). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:04, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Queue 4

Alexandru Talex

Nom page: Template:Did you know nominations/Alexandru Talex

• ... that Alexandru Talex was described as "the gentlest" member of a Romanian far-right organization?

Minor point perhaps, but the bolded article does not say that the Crusade of Romanianism is a far-right organisation. In the body, on first mention, it doesn't really say about it other than that it was "founded by Stelescu in opposition to the Guard". In the lead, it's described as a "proletarian-fascist group", but that's not directly cited anywhere and while I suppose that implies far-right, it would be good to state and cite explicitly if it's in the hook. @Dahn, Gerda Arendt, and AirshipJungleman29: Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 13:42, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Queue 5

Note: Earwig is down right now, all of these are still pending the copyvio checks. RoySmith (talk) 21:01, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

OK, Earwig is back up so I was able to complete the checks. No problems found. RoySmith (talk) 23:17, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Siege of Durham (1006)

@AirshipJungleman29, CSJJ104, and WatkynBassett: I'm confused by the "seems to have" part. Was he alive or not? RoySmith (talk) 20:36, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

That is the phrasing used in the sources, which was copied into the nomination template if you wish to check. I suspect that, as with many things in that time period, it is impossible to say for certain. If it is an issue for appearing on the main page, then I would be happy for one of the alt hooks to be used instead. --CSJJ104 (talk) 20:46, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I was confused at first as well, but this is exactly how the source frames it. All the best! WatkynBassett (talk) 20:51, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I like ALT2 the best. SL93 (talk) 21:07, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it works well for a hook when it is impossible to say for certain. SL93 (talk) 23:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

@RoySmith: Given that this set is the next one due to be displayed, can I check if your concerns have been answered? Alternatively, are you able to update the queue, possibly using Alt2 as suggested by SL93? CSJJ104 (talk) 02:02, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

If that's the wording the source uses, then I guess I'm OK with it. As for ALT2, isn't that kind of in WP:DYKGRAT territory? I won't object if another admin wants to use it, but it wouldn't be my preference. RoySmith (talk) 12:03, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Possibly. I was really just wanting to check no more work was needed before the article appears on the main page, and it sounds like there is not. CSJJ104 (talk) 13:36, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Izzy Scane

@AirshipJungleman29, BeanieFan11, and Hameltion: The article talks about goals, but the hook says points. Are those the same thing? Any reason we can't use the same word in both places? RoySmith (talk) 20:41, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

• I just edit-conflicted to say the same thing - my comment read "What does "led the country on points" mean? Which country (the hook does not identify one)? What points? This is jargon." Black Kite (talk) 20:44, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

@RoySmith: Thanks for catching – my error. Hook should say goals (points are goals + assists). Could replace the first use of "the country" with "NCAA Division I" or "American college lacrosse" if needs elaboration. Hameltion (talk | contribs) 20:48, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Trust Machine: The Story of Blockchain

@AirshipJungleman29, TheSandDoctor, and SL93: The article says just "refugees" which got turned into "stateless refugees" in the hook. It's not clear those are the same thing. RoySmith (talk) 20:47, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It appears to just be "refugees". Even though I'm saying that now, I cannot read The New York Times source because it wants me to subscribe. SL93 (talk) 20:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Guest link: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/25/movies/trust-machine-review.html?unlocked_article_code=1.zE0.WJLP.k5QOsGhlogu6&smid=url-share RoySmith (talk) 20:59, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. I see "We learn how, thanks to blockchain, neighbors in Brooklyn can trade solar electricity; how the technology might provide records for stateless refugees; and how it offers a way for fans to buy equity in an artist they like, without the middle men who come with sales on the internet." I'm not sure if "records" are the same as "identities". I'm hoping that the nominator knows. SL93 (talk) 21:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

@RoySmith, SL93, and AirshipJungleman29: NYT says they're stateless, Hollywood Reporter says the IDs are "official identities independent of the failed nations they’re fleeing". TheSandDoctor ^Talk 21:13, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I have added the word "stateless" to the article. SL93 (talk) 20:45, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Bernard Mellor

@AirshipJungleman29, Generalissima, and Mystery Merrivale: The article says Mellor worked in a unit which was headed by Fleming. To me, saying "alongside" implies they were the same rank. This sounds more like "worked for" rather than "worked alongside". RoySmith (talk) 20:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm not so sure. I would say that I worked alongside managers at my job, even though I'm just a regular employee. "If you work alongside other people, you all work together in the same place." SL93 (talk) 23:14, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

The Last of Us season 1

@AirshipJungleman29, Rhain, and OlifanofmrTennant: Come on, folks. The article says "The New Yorker claimed the series budget exceeded..." which got turned into a statement of fact in wiki-voice in the hook. RoySmith (talk) 20:55, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:DYKHOOK, if the source is not willing to the say the fact in its own voice, the hook should attribute back to the original source as well. Since The New Yorker is willing to say the fact in its own voice, I figured the hook could safely do the same. The article attributed the information for consistency with surrounding sentences, but it was unnecessary so I've rephrased it anyway. – Rhain ☔ (he/him) 23:16, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

To my ear, when I hear "X claimed", there's an implicit measure of doubt about the veracity of the claim, especially when it's paired with "sources suggested" as it was in the article. If you trust the source to be correct, then no need to equivocate with "claimed" and an attribution in the article. And if you feel the need to provide the attribution in the article, then it needs to be in the hook as well. RoySmith (talk) 01:48, 13 June 2024 (UTC)