Talk:The Color of Passion

Requested move 4 September 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus, leaning not moved. No agreement about what the most common names are for these shows. The fact that the user supporting the move used a sockpuppet to try and stack the vote in their favour certainly didn't help their argument. On the whole I thought Philip J Fry made the better case, but seeing as no one else weighed in it was difficult to call this anything but "no consensus". Jenks24 (talk) 17:53, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

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• The Color of Passion → El color de la pasión
• Wild at Heart (telenovela) → Corazón indomable
• The Stray Cat → La gata (2014 telenovela)

– Listing these for Nyanchoka as per User talk:CambridgeBayWeather#Full protection and move of multiple pages. I haveno opinion on the move. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Sunasuttuq 10:50, 4 September 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. Natg 19 (talk) 17:48, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose: Wild at Heart was where all the problem originated, in fact gave references, clearly showing that the telenovela there are in Spanish and English, so this telenovela was dubbed into English. Thing apparently Nyanchoka don't want to understand. Since where lives this telenovela give it with subtitles. With respect to The Stray Cat and The Color of Passion, they are the official titles of two telenovelas in English, and in fact both have their poster in English. And if you need reliable sources to demonstrate what i mean, I can search them without any problem. Now exist other titles, I wish that Nyanchoka tests. These titles were the officers who gave Televisa. And please move "Wild at Heart (telenovela)" to "Wild at Heart (Mexican TV series)", since apparently you cannot use "telenovela" as disambiguation.--Philip J Fry • (talk) 11:20, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

• Move:As I have stated severally before it is that Mexican Telenovelas only have those English Translations in order to understand the meaning of the title intended.Sometimes they don't take literal translation i.e La Gata to The Cat.Another thing about these titles it is that the production company may release two alternative titles eg La Vecina,that was translated as The Neighbor and The Girl Next Door.In other countries they completely change the English titles because they are not limited to do so by Production Companies.Surprisingly the Original titles are the most known than the English ones. For example La Gata is most known as "La Gata" in Ghana,La Malquerida is known by most as "La Malquerida" in Kenya,Nigeria and in Star Novela a channel for Soap Operas.Most importantly the issue that is making me to propose these moves it is that.Televisa,Telemundo and any telenovela producing company distribute their content without changing the title;we use the same Spanish theme song,the Spanish logo,words such as "FIN" are not changed only dubbing to English language voices that are secondary to the Spanish ones.Finally I have to say that Telenovelas are most known with their original names a than their translated ones.

I support a MOVE

May I correct Phillip J Fry a Telenovela is very different from a Series.He should check their meanings. nyanchy 23:30, 4 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nyanchoka (talk • contribs)

@Nyanchoka: The song has nothing to do, in Latin America have been telenovelas that have as the opening theme songs in English, so it can vary and has no importance, much less support for these pages are moved. And what of "La vecina" is a case apart, obviously "La vecina" took two alternative titles in English, but that happens, you make such statements no reference, both "The Stray Cat" and "The Color of Passion" were the only two titles in English that were used when these telenovelas were released and were the telenovela use to distribute these telenovelas in the United States and places where English is spoken, whether this year or after other company that decided to change the title it is not valid, since it must use the official titles that Televisa said. With regard to "Wild at Heart" is an issue that I think no longer discuss more clearly explained to you and does not want to listen to reason, to an administrator told you and still do not want to understand. --Philip J Fry • (talk) 11:09, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

• • User:Philip J Fry,what kind of references do you want me to give.The last time I checked the original title needs no reference.I moved the three pages,but you repeatedly reverted that led to an unfortunate block but I did the right thing by requesting so that a consensus are reached.The Original titles are the ones to be used and the English titles can be used at the infobox for (show_name_2) in which I remember you once told me with regards to Los miserables and Pasión prohibida I once did the English Translations and you asked me to place them at the infobox sections since reportedly very different titles are used by Telemundo Africa.So I don't just get what you are bitterly arguing about because the one who isn't understanding my statement is you.Take for instance La Gata;it is popular by its first name"La gata" more than the reportedly"The Stray Cat" that looks more unrealistic.Corazón indomable,a very popular 2013 telenovela that was quite successful in US used the same title,El color de la pasión has very minimal access to the English speaking countries and I think you get these titles from the Leading Edge posters that are used for promotional of the intended telenovela.I bet I have explained what I had to.User:Nyanchokanyanchy 12:25, 5 September 2015 (UTC) nyanchy 12:25, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

@Nyanchoka: That same I ask when it was changed the title in English of "El color de la pasión"?, according to Televisa the only Spanish title for this telenovela is "The Color of Passion", as you can see here. This was the only title that it was given to this telenovela, to be able to distribute it in United Kingdom and United States, also in countries where English is spoken. The same happens in "The Stray Cat", that was the only title that it was given to this telenovela, as you can see here. In fact I remember very well last year, when were these telenovelas in the Univision upfront, where clearly in the trailers that showed these were official English titles. Wild at Heart did not have more translations and in fact, as I have said before, the telenovela already has a version in English, as you can see here. These titles were the officers that I am presenting Televisa international. And therefore are official, whether at home where you live they gave these soap operas with their titles in Spanish, that has nothing to do, because "The Stray Cat" and "The Color of Passion" have their posters and their respective trailers.--Philip J Fry • (talk) 14:51, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

I am not against the official name that Televisa Internacional,gave the TELENOVELAS.They give all of them English Titles.Take for instance UTV Ghana uses the Spanish title,as you can see [[1]] , [[2]] ,[[3]] .What I am worried about is the loss of originality that comes with the change these English Titles.They can be used in the article but at the prologue.This YouTube videos are ment for promotional and they are not yet dubbed to English.US airs this telenovelas in Spanish with Spanish titles.The abridged version dubbed in English for this telenovelas is sold with Spanish titles as you can see [[4]],[[5]] that are produced in US after there broadcast.So ask yourself,What is the use of this English Titles?To deliver the meaning of the foreign language Title but not to rename it.As far as I can see this telenovelas are renamed.So User:Philip J Fry I know quite well those are the given English titles.And what really happened to the Hasta el fin del mundo move saga who solved it?We need him here.User:Nyanchokanyanchy 21:19, 5 September 2015 (UTC) nyanchy 21:19, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Now I wonder that it is about UTV Ghana here?. They emit beyond these telenovelas with their titles in Spanish has nothing to do, if it is why we could say that the title in Spanish for "El color de la pasión" should be moved to "Pasión de amor", since with that title was known in Colombia this telenovela. As I said before, the titles in English help users who do not speak Spanish, to find these pages. Because if you have not noticed, you're on the English Wikipedia. And none of the references that you've shown there, all directed me to pages that do not exist. For example you can see in the Portuguese Wikipedia, María la del Barrio, the telenovela was dubbed into Portuguese and users of the Portuguese Wikipedia use its official title in Portuguese, to help users who do not speak Spanish to find these pages more easily.--Philip J Fry • (talk) 21:59, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

@Philip J Fry,Now you can see.Even in Colombia they changed the name to Pasión de Amor from their original title.But Televisa did not produce it with that name.So what is the meaning of changing these names?I bet you don't know.As far as English Users who want to search Wikipedia,The original name will take them through all the other Wikipedia language pages.So to speak you think UTV Ghana is not enough to enlighten you! I watched those trailers last year and the original names are still intact.I bet those Videos from UTV Ghana can show you that Televisa sells their work without erasing their names.I could support a change of names from other languages that use different fonts such as Chinese and Hindu because they are very different from ours.Even in those,the names remain the same as you can see here but they are written using English language sounds.Finally I started using wikipedia long ago before I signed in.The problem with you,it is that you move pages without reaching in an agreement with interested parties,as you have done with four pages that I know.Nyanchoka nyanchy 07:55, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

In fact, "Pasión de amor" was the first title that had "El color de la pasión", but was later changed to the current, so "Pasión de amor" is also valid as an official title that in Colombia they used, and I think the main editor of many articles of telenovelas, because I do not have to ask permission or to agree to move a page, because as you will see there are not many users interested in publishing articles in telenovelas, and these movements were made pages one year. You were here a year ago ?, last year you even edited much as it does now. Then what are you complaining about ?. And that Televisa sells its telenovelas in countries where it is spoken with the same name in Spanish is totally false because there is Wild at Heart.--Philip J Fry • (talk) 11:47, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

And I see that this is a discussion that apparently will never end, I prefer to wait for other users to participate here and give their opinions or what they say the rules and policies of Wikipedia. Voucher?. Because if not life-long dispute. So better wait for other users to participate.--Philip J Fry • (talk) 11:47, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Do you know why people are not interested?It's your bossy attitude and actually interested and I always do edits when necessary.So don't judgemy experience in wikipedia but I've learned alot these past few months. You never give others time to edit.I joined Wikipedia December last year.I am not complaining about anything what am saying are facts.Corazón indomable, officially known so,was aired in US, Kenya,Ghana etc as with the same title but we all knew it is Wild at Heart as it was very popular and I bet you dont live in United Kingdom.As per your explanation,no one is interested in telenovela editing.That is actually a total lie.If someone does an innocent edit it is undone even if it is constructive,so as this discussion.I have experience in telenovelas that's why I try to establish them.As you said the two of us cannot reach at an agreement let us wait for manna from heaven.Nyanchokanyanchy 21:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC) nyanchy 21:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nyanchoka (talk • contribs)

I will not change my decision, and I don't have any bossy attitude, or I you've forced you to do things you don't want?, so let's tell falsehoods, simply get rid editions which are not acceptable in Wikipedia. And if nobody likes, because it's not my fault, I just adhere to the rules and policies of Wikipedia. And as I've said before, I hope that other users involved in this discussion, and if in any case there is any rule that dictates that titles cannot be used in English, or that other users they are in disagreement with me, I will accept that the pages are moved into their original titles. Otherwise not. And not I explain anything else, because I'm tired of explaining.--Philip J Fry • (talk) 21:23, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

MoveI've watched this telenovelas and they are often popular by their names.The English names are often not so much accepted because as Nyanchoka said they are just seconding to the original title.I live in Ghana and I know La Gata that way.Corazon indomable ″the same.The English names are often misleading and Wikipedia of all sites we should embrace that.I asked my self this what is a telenovela? I strongly support a move.Ysabella1990 (talk) 23:07, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Please see: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Nyanchoka.--Philip J Fry • (talk) 17:16, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

I haven't changed my mind yet now that La Gata is premiering over here in KEN .The title used is the Spanish one BWT we also use the "The Stray Cat" minimally.I hope other users can participate so that a consensus is reached. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nyanchoka (talk • contribs)

@Philip J Fry and Nyanchoka: I have not done the research to know which way to fall on the specifics of the three pages requested to be moved, but having scanned this discussion, I believe you are both debating based on your own individual conception of what grounds to use – what criteria should be considered for selecting a page title – rather than what the English Wikipedia's policies and guidelines actually are for choosing page titles. For example, you both appear to argue the relevance of the official names, which were translated or dubbed, whether the production company provided an English title, and so forth—all of which are generally irrelevant to article titling. So I thought it might help to attempt to set the ground rules for the debate, so there is a structure to know what is relevant to consider and what evidence is needed to support a position. The main policy is Wikipedia:Article titles. Other pages that appear relevant to me here are Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), Wikipedia:Official names and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Trademarks. I believe the following summarizes what you should be considering:

• The English Wikipedia generally chooses for topics like this the commonly recognized name of the topic as seen by its preponderance in reliable, English language sources. (See specifically the subsection of the article titling policy at WP:COMMONNAME.)
• This does not mean we choose the title that is in English. It means we choose the title that is most commonly used in English sources. So, for example, even though La Cage aux Folles is a famous play and film and its title can be translated into English ("The Cage of Mad Women"), its proper title here is in the original French because English language sources call it by its French name almost exclusively, but in any event, vastly more commonly than they use any translated title.
• However, if there really is little to no appearance of the topic in English language sources – too few to constitute an "established usage" – only then do we turn to reliable sources in the foreign language of the topic for what its commonly called in them.
• We generally do not care what the original or official title is, or the preference of its owner, or what they say or do. "Official names used only in other languages often have no relevance at all. English usage overrides usage in other languages, so other languages would chiefly become relevant if the topic had never been described or discussed in English prior to the writing of the Wikipedia article."
• So, I think what you should be doing is presenting evidence as to what title is most common;y used for these telenovelas, in reliable English language sources. Note that if search engine results are used as part of such evidence, a web search does not tend to concentrate reliable sources, whereas, for example, a book search generally does.

I hope this helps.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:38, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

@Fuhghettaboutit:, That is well and not know it, but if you ask for references, I think that I have already given enough. The problem with Nyachoka is that in your country these telenovelas give them with their titles in Spanish. But that happens, personally I think that too much irrelevant as to which titles are changed. As I said before, in Colombia this telenovela was known as "Pasíon de amor", and not that is the reason why we should change the title to "Pasión de amor". In United States where Televisa mainly sells its telenovelas, they themselves have put these titles as officers, for countries where English is spoken. "Wild at Heart" was the official that was given to this telenovela and was in fact English dubbed in English title, so I ask myself, because ignore the title in English, when this can help users who speak English to find the article more quickly. With regard to "The Color of Passion" and "The Stray Cat", these were the official titles that Televisa put him in English. But Nyanchoka comes here complaining and frustrated because in their country to these three telenovelas not you translate their titles into English, if that did not let them in Spanish. So was that Nyanchoka use a puppet account to support your point. Then I think of this, it's just a fad of this user.--Philip J Fry (talk) 00:14, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

@Fuhghettaboutit I think I listed the references above.Most commonly known of the telenovelas are Corazón indomable and La Gata.As I have stated earlier, The titles are more popular by their Spanish names ranging from the spoilers they offer.I can list all the telenovelas watched in EA. and I can say they all have their Spanish titles.

• As per the user,Philip J Fry,I have little to tell you as the sock issue was dealt with long ago and I learned a lesson.So I should ask you to stop including it here as it will not solve all the issues that affect these pages and its non of any other user's business whatsoever.
• Recently when I moved these pages to Spanish titles; a suspicious user quite interested with these, moved the page Corazón indomable (telenovela) to Wild at Heart (telenovela).But know one ever reported am I sensing collision?
• Let me gather more refs if necessary BWT I prefer that we use the ones I listed above first.nyanchy 11:44, 24 September 2015 (UTC) nyanchy 11:44, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

And I gave my reasons and my decision will be the same, I am totally against that current titles are changed, because there are references. With respect to the user who moved the page "Corazón indomable" to "Wild at Heart" not me. And if you have doubts, ask for a verification of accounts in place.--Philip J Fry (talk) 14:45, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Wild at Heart (telenovela) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — 70.51.202.113 (talk) 04:26, 4 October 2015 (UTC)