Talk:Tara Teng/Archive 1

Archive 1

Massive deletions

I just deleted a lot of information in this article. It is my opinion that although Tara Teng as the winner of beauty pageants and as an activist can justify a wikipedia page, the amount of information provided was far more than is necessary. Much of the article was inane details about her life or her opinions on things, much of the text was overly complementary and certainly not neutral. Additionally there is a huge potential issue with WP:BLP. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:14, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

I have restored most of the deleted information in a more structured manner. What BLP issues are there? If the article is too long, we should be following Wikipedia's guidelines about article size and splitting off subarticles using summary style. What statements are not neutral? Neelix (talk) 20:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

While she is an interesting subject, there is NO WAY she needs this much coverage or detail and definitely not multiple articles. Legacypac (talk) 04:04, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Not neutral

This article is not neutral, it almost seems like the writer is obsessed with Tara Teng. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:22, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

What statements are not neutral? Neelix (talk) 20:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

it almost seems like the writer is obsessed with Tara Teng. --70.187.182.164 (talk) 02:38, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Finally found something not nice about her- previously deleted. Legacypac (talk) 07:54, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

content & category bloat

This article is overwritten in the extreme, clearly promotional in nature, and contains endless trivia about what books she's read and who she's met and more. Various categories have been included that are very questionable and where she is not a notable figure, e.g. Canadian women's writers. Too much here that has no place in an encyclopedia article and is entirely promotional and WP:UNDUE.Skookum1 (talk) 09:19, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE absolutely applies here, but as the only author is an admin I'm afraid to do anything about it.CombatWombat42 (talk) 16:12, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

All the more reason you should, as admins are not immune from criticism nor can they WP:OWN an article; this was part of a set of articles hyping some establishments she appeared at, as if that made them notable, all of which have now been deleted as unencyclopedic and obvious spam. I don't have time, or the stomach, to trim this article of its extensive dross and fan-hype....suffice to say Kim Kardashian's article isn't as long....this article violates so many guidelines it amazes me that people can become admins simply through being cautious in their language, and earning brownie points, but without any real knowledge or concept of what encyclopedic content is supposed to be. Hack away, somebody has to....Skookum1 (talk) 12:36, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

You have nothing to fear from administrators; I have no more say in this article than anyone else. I do not believe that this article is promotional or contains trivia, but I would be glad to discuss ways to improve the article. What statements do you believe to be promotional or trivial? Neelix (talk) 19:29, 30 June 2013 (UTC)

A short answer will be "most of it is trivia/waffle/editoralising". I've bolded the text in the first para I consider waffle: "At the age of two, Tara's parents gave her the Chinese name Oi Kwan, meaning "loves groups of people," and Teng later attested to this name describing her well. Her parents raised her on British Columbia's Sunshine Coast. Teng attends Re:Generation, a local church that was planted by her father, who is also the church's pastor. Teng has a Bachelor of Education degree from Trinity Western University (TWU) with a specialization in teaching secondary school. Her first impetus to combat human trafficking came from watching Bangkok Girl, a documentary film. She advocates labelling human trafficking victims "not as prostitutes but prostituted [because nearly] 98% of the women don't want to be in the industry."" Removing or condensing this text would help the dog see the rabbit. Cheers, Baffle gab1978 (talk) 20:59, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your recommendations. I have removed and condensed the information you have identified. Any further help in this area would be greatly appreciated. Neelix (talk) 15:00, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

No worries; the above is just an example of the problems that need fixing. Hopefully a competent and experienced copy-editor will pick up your request at the GOCE Request page; if they don't you'll be stuck with me again! Cheers, Baffle gab1978 (talk) 01:30, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

That would be fine by me. I've appreciated your copyedits in the past. Neelix (talk) 16:26, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Two years later I just removed much of the exact same highlighted info, so someone put this junk back. Legacypac (talk) 05:50, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Removed text

• From Personal Life (renamed Early Life):

n the 1970s, Terry and his family immigrated to Canada; he later met Lori at a Canadian university. The name Tara means "she who brings forth life." Elaine Phillips of Baptist Horizon eventually wrote that this name suits Teng because her "heartbeat and passion is to see all people—regardless of nationality, culture, gender, lifestyle or belief—thrive in freedom, truth and abundance." She called her family "a crazy bunch" who enjoy watching films, eating regional cuisines, and playing board games together. Teng's favourite activities include travel, archery, rock climbing, salsa dancing, and watching Pacific Ocean sunsets. Her favourite foods are green curry and salmon, and she also enjoys hae mee, a traditional Singaporean dish that she grew up with. She said that, as her fame has grown, her circle of close friends has become smaller and more important to her. She thinks that she would get along well with Drew Barrymore if they ever met. Teng considers herself strong-willed. She has never used an online dating service, but she attests to having been asked on dates online multiple times, once through her LinkedIn account by someone who claimed to have met her years before but whom she did not remember. She said that she prefers to be asked out in person because it requires the man to step out of his comfort zone.

In November 2011, Teng attended a political debate between the mayoral candidates for both Langley City and Langley Township. At the debate, Teng asked candidate Mel Kositsky what his passion was, and Kositsky said his passion to be "helping others achieve their goals." After the suicide of Amanda Todd, Teng said that Todd lived with psychological resilience and courage that "is impacting millions of people's lives around the world," encouraging people to see those around them as family. Teng said that she finds it difficult to deal with the public's opinions on what kind of person she should be. Ann Mainse of the "Full Circle" segment on 100 Huntley Street said that "many young girls see [Teng] as a vibrant, beautiful role model."

1. From Public speaking:

She later declared that every one of the more than thirty people who attended "was very engaged in the topic".

• From Public awareness initiatives:

In each city, the team partnered with local organizations in order to encourage participation. In Kamloops, the team met in Calvary Community Church and Riverside Park, where Teng spoke from the shell. While in Thunder Bay, Teng spoke about human trafficking at Evangel Church. Independent donations funded the tour. The goal of the tour was to foster a grassroots movement that was unified across the country to fight human trafficking. The Ignite the Road to Justice team argued that, in order to reduce human trafficking, the selling of sex should be decriminalized and the buying of sex should be criminalized. The team circulated a petition stating that "the demand for commercial sex with women and children is the root cause for prostitution and trafficking for sexual purposes."

• From Schools:

Teng said that on nearly every occasion that she has spoken in public about human trafficking, she has been approached by a teenaged girl who tells her about having been targeted by a prospective pimp. She said that she cannot count the times that girls have approached her in this manner after her speeches at schools ranging from West Point Grey Academy to inner-city schools in Downtown Vancouver. She said that many of these girls cry as they tell their stories and that they have normally never heard the terms "forced prostitution" and "human trafficking" defined, despite having experienced these situations personally. Teng argued that, because they had not been previously educated on these subjects, they did not know how to get out of these situations once they were in them. Teng said that these girls tend to be approximately 15 or 16 years old.

• From Pageants --> Philosophy (entire section is waffle):

Teng self-identifies as an abolitionist rather than a beauty queen because she uses her beauty pageant fame as a platform to raise awareness about human trafficking. Many of her discussions with governments on the topic of human trafficking have been facilitated by her pageant titles. She is reluctant to wear tiaras and sashes, but does so when she believes that they will aid her in raising social awareness. She finds that people who hear of her pageant wins often try to fit her into the stereotype that a beauty queen is someone who is intelligent and physically attractive, but not a leader or someone with strong convictions. She said that she likes to prove these people wrong. Frank Stirk of ChristianWeek agreed that Teng does not fit the beauty queen stereotype. In September 2011, Teng said: "I'm not a pageant girl. I'm not a beauty queen. I'm an abolitionist." She also said that she hates being compared to Miss South Carolina Teen USA contestant Caitlin Upton who incorrectly responded to a question about maps; Teng believes that she and Upton are quite different people. She also believes that she is more self-aware than most beauty pageant contestants. She has called herself "the most untypical beauty pageant winner that is out there," partially because she is shorter than most winners, standing at only 1.63 m (5 ft 4 in); and partially because she prefers to go barefoot, let her hair down, and wear long skirts associated with hippies rather than wear cosmetics and high-heeled footwear. Alan Woo of Vancouver Magazine agreed that Teng stands in contrast to the "babes in bikinis who [want] to 'help the less fortunate' and 'make a difference.'" Similarly, Ann Mainse of the "Full Circle" segment on 100 Huntley Street said that, "aside from the beauty thing, there is nothing typical about this pageant winner."

Teng believes that the beauty pageants in which she has participated do not fit the popular stereotype of what a beauty pageant is; she has called them "a lot of fun. It's crazy and it's chaotic." In particular, she found the Miss World competition unique in making personal development and leadership the focus; she said that the judges look for "unique individuality." Teng has never appeared in a swimsuit competition, and there are no images of her online in a swimsuit. When a CTV News interviewer asked Teng on CTV Morning Live what little girls should do to become a beauty queen apart from not eating cake for breakfast, Teng responded: "If it has to do with stopping eating cake, then, I don't know what to tell you, because that's definitely not my method." This interviewer also called her "gorgeous" and "an amazing woman, beautiful inside and out." At all of Teng's beauty pageants, the judges were impressed by her volunteer work and strong opposition to human trafficking. Teng's mother Lori said that she and her husband taught Tara "to love herself and she eats what she wants without worrying about dieting to be thin."

• From Miss B.C. World:

Every Miss B.C. World chooses a social issue as a platform; previous winners chose such issues as disabilities in children; breast cancer; child abuse; and the need for blood donations.

• From Miss Canada World:

That October, Teng attended the finale of LG Fashion Week in Toronto. During the fashion show, VAWK's Sunny Fong had a model appear wearing a gold bullet bra as Madonna's "Justify My Love" played; Teng later commented that the Fong's designs were somewhat evocative of fashion typical of Madonna, "but in a new fresh way... that was really exciting." Teng and Ron Wear appeared together in a convertible at that year's Canada Day parade in Vancouver.

Teng said that opera jazz singer Kari Culjat, the winner of the competition, was both comfortable and confident at the finals and that Culjat's performance of "O mio babbino caro" by Giacomo Puccini was significantly enhanced by Culjat's on-stage storytelling. Teng burst out with, "That was freaking amazing!" immediately after Culjat finished her performance.

References

Cheers, Baffle gab1978 (talk) 02:58, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tara Teng/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: 1ST7 (talk · contribs) 05:36, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll review this nomination. Initial comments should be posted by tomorrow. --1ST7 (talk) 05:36, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Here's the review:

1. Well-written

   • This phrasing is a little vague: "At one of the churches where Terry pastored, Teng had a negative experience with people there when she was 15 years old. She reacted to the situation by rejecting Christianity and by making selfish decisions about her apartment, car, job, and boyfriend." If the specifics are not known, it would help for the wording to be altered to "She has said she reacted to..."
   • When referring to the ages of trafficking victims in the "Philosophy" section, it seems to go from spelling the age to using numbers ("twelve" to "13" and "3"). I believe the general rule on Wikipedia is to use spelling for ten and under and numbers for anything higher.

2. Verifiable with no original research:

   • Can you please add a citation to the quote at the end of the second paragraph in the lead?

3. Broad in its coverage:
4. Neutral:
5. Stable:
6. Illustrated, if possible, by images:

I'll put the article on hold to give you time to address these things. Thanks for your work! --1ST7 (talk) 07:19, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for taking on this review! I have reworded the phrase about rejecting Christianity, made the numbers consistent with the general rule, and added a citation at the end of the second paragraph of the lead. Neelix (talk) 12:57, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Everything looks good now, so I'm passing the article. Congratulations, and thanks again for your work! --1ST7 (talk) 20:25, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Image with Marjolein Poppema

File:Tara Teng and Marjolein Poppema.jpg is used to illustrate the Pageants/Miss BC World section, captioned as "Tara Teng (left) was trained to model by professionals in preparation for the 2010 Miss BC World pageant." However, it appears the image is these two women modelling jewelry, not modelling themselves, which is the sense that is relevant to being in beauty pageant. More importantly, I don't see any support for this other person being generally either a professional model or a known model-trainer herself (google says she's a jewelry designer), or specifically a trainer of Teng. The image is also 3 years after the pageant, so it doesn't obviously relate to her training for it. Need to resolve the BLP claims here. DMacks (talk) 16:55, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

I can understand why you would feel that the image is not sufficiently relevant to the section; I have removed the image from the article. Neelix (talk) 15:56, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Recent large changes and page protection

Agree the recently reverted edits were excessive. Had intended to revert a some of them. However, many were appropriate removal of fluff. I'm now nervous about removing excessive text, as the admin actions seem heavy handed, particularly as the sock allegation implies only one user is responsible. As a rough guide, am I safe if conserve ideas and citations? How long is the protection lasting for? Millionmice (talk) 03:14, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure why the article is fully protected on the back of the recent changes; perhaps some the edits went too far, but to revert to a previous version and prevent editing not by an admin seems too harsh of a step. I'm certainly of the mind that this article's length and lack of brevity is a downside, and a lot should be excised. There may be an ongoing SPI regarding the editor making these changes, but I'm not sure the response of full protection is warranted in this case. I'd advocate for further discussion of what needs to be done to what I'd say is a terribly messy article at present. HOT WUK (talk) 18:08, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Have any of you actually tried to read any of this? Those edits were absolutely justified. --2601:C:5F00:8FC:8C4D:7B21:BB64:6E3F (talk) 22:32, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I have reverted to this version of the article because of the huge amount of sockpuppet edits. This was before all of the content removals. Epic Genius (talk) 01:57, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

@Epicgenius: I am no sockpuppet; I made a revert in good faith as there are good faith reasons to cut down the size of this article. It is beyond me why even the slightest trimmings cannot be accepted. HOT WUK (talk) 02:53, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Additionally, I see my recent revert led to the page being semi-protected due to BLP concerns. Would someone care to explain how removing overlong and irrelevant detail into a person is a violation of WP:BLP? HOT WUK (talk) 02:56, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

@HOT WUK: I apologize. I know you are not a sockpuppet, and I didn't mean to imply that. However, that edit which I reverted to is before the actual sockpuppets (Cactusjackbangbang, Yaktaur) removed huge amounts of stuff from the page. Anyway, this is a good article, so any significant changes like removing 20Kb of information needs to be discussed here beforehand. Epic Genius (talk) 03:11, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

This article is, IMHO, too long and the shorter version before the big revert back was better for someone like me who doesn't know Tara Teng from a hole in a ground and just wants the basic info as a casual reader. I could pick out points, but it would be incredibly long and tedious, so instead I'll suggest that the original GA review was rather short and not very comprehensive, so possibly a trip to WP:GAR will sort this out. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:26, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The article does seem quite long and one sided. That said, we can't fix this by adding poorly source allegations surrounding a LP [1] [2]. Nil Einne (talk) 18:58, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified

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Anti-trafficking task force

I am considering adding the following text into the article, after the text In January 2012, Teng, Todd Hauptman, and Danny Ferguson of Langley Youth Unlimited hosted an event called "Wake Up: A Night Against Exploitation," in which an anti-exploitation documentary was shown.:

At this event, a human trafficking task force was created.

References

Is this relevant, or does this fall under WP:TOOMUCH? epic genius (talk) 02:18, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I think that's fine. Kelly ^hi! 02:22, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

How about "Teng helped create and serve on a locally focused anti-human trafficking task force which produced a report on measures the community could do to fight the problem." The event is not notable, the task force work more so. We could use the same line on the pages of others who were on the task force. Legacypac (talk) 02:25, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense. I'll add it. epic genius (talk) 02:26, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that is good. Kelly ^hi! 02:28, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Whoops sorry Epicgenius. I hope I didn't mess it up by trimming the lead sentence of that para. The source was dead. Kelly ^hi! 02:32, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

@Kelly: Nah, that's fine, I just fixed it. Thanks for removing that dead source. epic genius (talk) 02:37, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Way less creepy

Good job everyone :) Now, can we archive the excessive detail on the talk page? Not sure how to set up the archive. Legacypac (talk) 02:40, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I'll do it. Kelly ^hi! 02:42, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

should we add back the pole dancer in this Good Article version? [3] Legacypac (talk) 02:45, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

 Done. Added a manual archive (someone could do an auto-archive if they want, but this talk page isn't that busy). epic genius (talk) 02:46, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I set up the auto-archive. Kelly ^hi! 02:47, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Improvements

Thank you Kelly, Legacypac, and Epicgenius for taking an axe to this ludicrous article.  — Scott • talk 11:12, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, the work fits exactly with the philosophies outlined in User:Tony1/How to improve your writing and User:Tony1/Redundancy exercises: removing fluff from your writing, essential reading for anyone wanting to write good articles (as distinctly different from good articles). I've done a bit of a shave and a haircut myself, and I may do more if I can find the motivation to sift through a bunch of sources. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:35, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

You mean, decent articles as opposed to "good"-class articles? That's a good motivation. epic genius (talk) 15:54, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Birthdate citation

I don't remember seeing her birthdate in any of the refs I read - did anyone else? Just this which says she was 23 at the time of the competition. Kelly ^hi! 03:45, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

So this amazing person started university late at age 20? Legacypac (talk) 03:49, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

OK now I'm wondering how Neelix found out what her birthdate is. I'm removing it for now at least. Kelly ^hi! 03:56, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

[4] maybe they know each other? Legacypac (talk) 04:05, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I know an actor who has her own Wikipedia article. Do I add tens of kilobytes to explain how awesome she is? No one else really does that, except maybe POV-pushing SPAs. For one thing, I am really surprised that this original research made it past the GA review.

Incidentally, I didn't find a reliable source for a birthdate in Google Search either. epic genius (talk) 04:14, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

• The most astonishing thing is that there was only one redirect to this article, Oi Kwan. Kelly ^hi! 04:16, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

The ref I did find (age x in y) suggests she was born in about 1990 not 1988. Who will add #REDIRECT Most awesome person ever Legacypac (talk) 04:18, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Gimme that. *takes redirect, laughs* epic genius (talk) 04:20, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

IMDB, which for the past five years has had very strict proof-requirements for birth dates (believe me, I've had to submit government documents or similar for the people's birth dates/names/locations I've wanted to add or change) lists it as what we had: [5]. -- Softlavender (talk) 04:25, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I wouldn't have a problem with citing it to that. Kelly ^hi! 04:29, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

• Note: This is where Neelix sourced the info: [6], which says she "turned 23 today". Given that IMDB (like wiki) only lists the birthplace as British Columbia, and does not list a city or town, I have a feeling that article was the source used for IMDB as well. Is that article believable? Would there be any reason (pageant eligibility, etc.) for her to lie about her age (or are those things checked super-rigorously at pageants anyway)? Softlavender (talk) 04:55, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

She is too awesome to lie, but how accurate is a local reporter in another town?? We could just ask her. Legacypac (talk) 05:07, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Looking at older versions the bdate was always sources to the Kamloops article that says today was her 23rd bday. So he did the math on that. Legacypac (talk) 02:13, 11 November 2015 (UTC)