- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Not moved as there was no consensus. — Wug·a·po·des 19:17, 26 January 2020 (UTC)Reply
Statism in Shōwa Japan → Japanese fascism – I am arguing that this article be moved to Japanese fascism based on two points. (1.) Firstly, the current title of the article is wrong, since statism was only one form of Japanese ultranationalism. See this quote from historian Richard Sims: "The divisions within Japanese ultranationalism:The great number and variety of different groups makes analysis of Japanese nationalism extremely difficult. Historians have tended to favour a dualistic division into kokkashugi (pro-Establishment statist nationalism) and kokuminshugi (anti-Establishment people-oriented nationalism), or alternatively, totalitarian (or renovationist) Right and idealist (or Japanist) Right." Therefore, I think we should all be able to agree that Statism in Showa Japan is the wrong title. (2.) While I admit that fascism is difficult to define, and while I admit that many historians do not associate the Japanese extreme right with fascism, many, if not most historians, do call it fascism. For example, historian E. Bruce Reynolds says, "surely Bernd Martin was correct in labeling prewar Japan 'a folkish imperial state' and itsemperor-centered ideology a form of 'Japanese-style fascism.'" Historian Christopher WA Szpilman says, "fascists were in charge in prewar Japan, even if they themselves spurned this label. After all, it is not the labels that are important, but the ideological content." If there is no consensus to rename this article to Japanese fascism, my second choice is Ultranationalism in prewar Japan. Hko2333 (talk) 08:19, 29 December 2019 (UTC)—Relisting. Surachit (talk) 09:03, 6 January 2020 (UTC)Reply
- Comment. Briefly, this was not only something in prewar Japan, so "Ultranationalism in prewar Japan" would seem to be inaccurate despite the use of "ultranationalism" by Maruyama Masao and others. For what it's worth, the current title of this article is a direct translation of kokka shugi (statism). The cross-wiki link to Japanese is to tennōsei fashizumu ("imperial fascism"). As noted above, sources in English are split on whether or not the Japanese case should be called fascism. Dekimasuよ! 15:38, 29 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
- An earlier discussion, from before there was a page merge and a move to the current title, can be found at Talk:Militarism-Socialism in Showa Japan#Merging with Japanese militarism. Some of those users might still be around/lurking and might be notified. I agree with the critique of the current title, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to know if the proposed term is really best. Srnec (talk) 19:38, 6 January 2020 (UTC)Reply
- Support This is probably the best title we're going to get. No title is going to be without controversy, but most of the books I've read on the matter don't hesitate to use the word "fascism". Ultranationalism in pre-war Japan is okay too, I guess. This Wikipedia article mostly stops in 1945, so "prewar Japan", as opposed to "postwar Japan", is a sensible clarifier. LoosingIt (talk) 20:55, 7 January 2020 (UTC)Reply
- 1931–1945 (or 1937–1945, depending on how you count) is "wartime Japan", not "prewar Japan". Dekimasuよ! 16:51, 8 January 2020 (UTC)Reply
- Oppose. This would be a fundamental change in scope of the article. There is not a strong scholarly consensus that the various statist & nationalist forces, movements, thinkers, etc in Shōwa Japan should be described as "fascist"; though this is a viewpoint supported by some, predominately Marxist, scholars. We should understand which sections & content from the existing scope would need to be removed from the article as out of scope, and to where they would be moved. Could possibly support "Nationalism in Shōwa Japan" or similar, as a more plain English phrasing than "Statism". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryk72 (talk • contribs)
- I do agree that this would change the scope of the article, which is a somewhat different question from whether or not the wartime Japanese government can be described as fascist. It would also change the relationship of this page to other articles, such as Japanese militarism and Japanese nationalism and probably even Empire of Japan. Dekimasuよ! 02:43, 13 January 2020 (UTC)Reply
- Oppose. The proposal is to define Japanes history in European terms. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 13:27, 20 January 2020 (UTC)Reply
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.
