Talk:Spanish conquest of Honduras

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Possible translation from Spanish WikipediaEdit

This article looks like it may have been translated from es:Conquista de Honduras. I fixed a lot of citation template errors, located page numbers for quotes, and translated a few phrases and reference titles, but my Spanish skills are quite limited. The page needs copy-editing by someone more experienced in Spanish-English translation. —Shelley V. Adamsblame
credit
› 13:28, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

If I get time, I will try to take this on - although perhaps not immediately. I wrote the cluster of articles on the Spanish conquest of the Maya (Guatemala/Petén/Chiapas/Yucatán) and various spin-off articles, so I have some knowledge of the subject, and my Spanish is good. I have been pondering which Spanish conquest article to tackle next, then this came along... All the best, Simon Burchell (talk) 10:07, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
I'm working on this now, and aim to finish within a week or two, and will then probably work on a complete rewrite. Simon Burchell (talk) 17:03, 5 December 2016 (UTC)
Update: Translation is finished, and this article at least gives an introduction to the topic, but it is stuffed full of lengthy quotes, and over-relies on 19th-century sources, with hardly any recent scholarship. I have smoothed out some of the more blatant NPOV violations, but there are probably plenty remaining. I've added a bunch of sources to a "Further reading" section, though it is by no means exhaustive, and I hope to return to this article at a later date to rewrite it in line with the Spanish conquest articles I mentioned previously. Simon Burchell (talk) 17:48, 9 December 2016 (UTC)
Further update: Rewrite done. Simon Burchell (talk) 08:14, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

GA ReviewEdit

This review is transcluded from Talk:Spanish conquest of Honduras/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Auntieruth55 (talk · contribs) 21:07, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

will do! auntieruth (talk) 21:07, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
2 disambiguation pages linked on Spanish America.
These are linked from a navbox, I've fixed them there. Simon Burchell (talk) 09:01, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
lead...
  • this text is great! (so far) It needs info boxes etc like you used in your article on the Mayans.
I'll get to the rest of this article tomorrow or on the weekend. auntieruth (talk) 21:12, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for taking this on - I realise it is a lengthy article. Best regards, Simon Burchell (talk) 22:29, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
geo/climate
  • once you've established meters, km, etc. you can use the abbreviations in the template. add |abbr=on to the template
  • Your topic sentences could be stronger. Try not using "to be" Honduras is situated in the ...The country is divided into four
  • Honduras lies in the heart ??? The country has four geographic regions
  • Also, establish at the beginning of this section that you mean the 21st century countries
  • At altitudes of over 2,000 metres (6,600 ft), frost sometimes forms... Frost sometimes forms at ....
Before conquest...
  • the population is estimated to have been around 800,000, concentrated .... Most of the estimated 800,000 population lived in the....
  • is considered. Most of the population ... just say it and cite it. "is considered" is wishy-washy.
  • other Mesoamerican cultures such ....such other Mesoamerican cultures as....
  • Hmm. Not sure about this one. I did preview it, but it just reads a little strange to me... Simon Burchell (talk) 17:09, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Lenca and * inhabited the islands
  • early colonial documents that the important settlements of Naco and Quimistan, in the northwest, were multiethnic, inhabited by Pipil and Lenca or Maya, or all three ...Early colonial documents suggest that ....

You can strengthen all your sentences but taking out the "helping" verbs and getting right to your point. You did this much better in the latter part of the article!

  • Thanks for the comments, I will try to look at this tomorrow or Wednesday. All the best, Simon Burchell (talk) 22:31, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
Background
  • This sentence: "After the discovery of Honduras by Columbus in 1502, no concerted effort to conquer the territory took place until 1524." is out of place. This sentence In the first two decades of the 16th century, the Spanish established their domination over the islands of the Caribbean Sea, and used these as a staging point to launch their campaigns of conquest on the continental mainland of the Americas should be the topic sentence of that paragraph.\
  • from there various expeditions were launched northwards in... from there, launched various expeditions northward in...
  • end of that section might be the better place for "Consequently, after the discovery of Honduras by Columbus in 1502, no concerted effort to conquer the territory took place until 1524."
  • I've left it at the end of the first para, since it seems to fit smoothly there - events leading to 1502, then the statement of no further action in Honduras for two decades, then a summary of what was happening regionally during that gap. Simon Burchell (talk) 09:44, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Encomienda
  • needs definition
  • The definition is in the 3rd sentence. "This gave the encomendero (holder of the encomienda) the right to receive tribute and labour." Simon Burchell (talk) 10:01, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I've clarified it to "encomienda gave the encomendero (holder of the encomienda) the right to receive tribute and labour from the indigenous inhabitants of a defined area." Simon Burchell (talk) 10:12, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
  • spread of such diseases as malaria and yellow fever ....?

First expedition

  • Spanish infighting also hindered conquest -- out of place. should be t.s. of next paragraph.

Nice. More later auntieruth (talk) 23:17, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Discovery
  • afterwards it was generally known as the Cape of Honduras -- afterward generally known as the Cape of Honduras (link?)
First Expeditions
  • extremely turbulent period...you don't need extremely
  • It was sometimes the case that the Spanish would conquer an area and move on, just for it to immediately rise in rebellion. On several ,,,conquered indigenous peoples rose up to massacre the Spanish colonisers. repetitive ...Sometimes the Spanish would conquer an area and move on, just for it to immediately rise in rebellion,[20] or even

massacre any Spanish colonisers.[44]

Rival conquests
  • From there he and marched inland in...?
  • Francisco Hernández de Córdoba, who answered to Pedrarias in Castilla de Oro, what does this mean? C de O was his commander? Or that was his "other" name.
  • Pedrarias was the commanding officer, based in the colony of Castilla de Oro (Panama/Colombia). Simon Burchell (talk) 22:15, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I found this section quite confusing.
  • I've rephrased somewhat in an attempt to clarify. The situation was confused, to say the least, with roaming bands of Spanish adventurers facing off all over the place... Simon Burchell (talk) 22:38, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • need to link first instance of Audiencia, not second.
Hernan Cortez
  • The journey from Lake Petén Itzá to Lake Izabal, both now in Guatemala, was extremely arduous, and Cortés lost many men and horses.[89] During the arduous journey..., Cortes lost many men and horses.
de rojas
  • He sent a letter and gifts with messengers, who met Gonzalo de Sandoval, who was imposing Spanish control over Papayeca at that time, then proceed onwards to Cortés at Trujillo. who...who...then proceed.
Sections covering all tht dispute are confusing. I couldn't keep straight who was doing what to whom. I wonder if there's a way to illustrate this with some kind of graphic that shows, over time, the different alliances...? If I were teaching this, my students wouldn't understand it.
  • Yes, it gave me quite a headache trying to understand what was going on (hence the map in the "Scramble for Honduras" section, which I created purely to understand the order of events in that section...) I'll see what I can come up with. Simon Burchell (talk) 22:47, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • OK, I've drawn up a chart, it's not pretty, given the complex situation, but it represents interactions between different Spanish groups, and which officers fell within which general jurisdiction. I hope it helps... Simon Burchell (talk) 23:03, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • The Spanish Crown was now taking a direct interest in the chaotic state of affairs in Central America, and was taking efforts to place Crown officials as governors, and colonial organisations such as the audiencias to impose absolute government over territories claimed by Spain, thus putting an end to the era of distinguished conquistadors setting themselves up as overlords of territories they had conquered this can be broken into shorter, clearer sentences.
Crown
  • two different dates of when he left Santo Domingo and I'm not sure you need to repeat so much of the previous sentence.
  • Sorted - one day was his date of appointment, he sailed a little later. I also cut the repeat info. Simon Burchell (talk) 08:12, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • In the event.... You can take that out.
  • July 1526 ?
  • Yes, I've changed the tense, and dropped the "immediately", since on rereading the source there was obviously some lag. Simon Burchell (talk) 08:12, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Natividad de Nuestra Señora ?
  • This was a settlement founded by Hernán Cortés, earlier in the article. Two sections previously (in "Hernando de Saavedra") it had suffered an overwhelming native attack. Simon Burchell (talk) 08:12, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • from Comayagua as far south as Nicaragua to as far south?
  • Diego López de Salcedo, 1526–1530 seems to me the title should be Crown authorities try to take control 1526-1530
  • I've done this. I had been trying to define sections by the leading conquistador, for those periods when one was clearly defined - but this was purely a structure I inherited from the article before I completely rewrote it, and I'm not wedded to it. Simon Burchell (talk) 08:18, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • in which the jurisdictional limits of Honduras were limited in which the jurisdictional limits of Honduras were defined by...
  • from that point onwards, any disputes were with Guatemal although border disputes with Guatamala remained a problem.
  • By the time he arrived in the colonial capital, soon after Cerezeda had taken sole charge, he was near death he was near death by the time he arrived at the colonial capital. In the absence of a crown official, Cerezeda had taken sole charge.
  • Not sure about this one, since it is referring back to Cerezeda's emergence as leader from the bitter infighting in Trujillo, covered in the previous para. Simon Burchell (talk) 08:25, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • November 2 November just need a comma after 2 November,
  • Cerezeda left Trujillo temporarily, and, with Vasco de Herrera also gone, move comma
  • Vasco de Herrera ordered that Méndez de Hinostrosa be executed, but he sought sanctuary in a church and his supporters soon rallied to him; at that time they outnumbering Vasco de Herrera's men in Trujillo
  • Cerezeda acted quickly and fierce fighting erupted in Trujillo. Cerezeda captured Méndez de Hinostrosa and beheaded him. Finally, a year of Spanish infighting, Cerezeda emerged as sole governor of Honduras
  • and instead set off forayed along the Caribbean coast in canoes
  • In any case, the situation in Trujillo was too precarious for Cerezeda to support a major expedition.
  • that called in to Trujillo that stopped at
all for now. (whew!) auntieruth (talk) 21:05, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Whew indeed! Thanks... Simon Burchell (talk) 08:36, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Status queryEdit

Auntieruth55, Simon Burchell, what is the status of this review? It looks like a bunch of issues were addressed a couple of weeks ago, with no posts here or to the article since then; are there more? Do some of them need more work? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:39, 31 March 2017 (UTC)

@Auntieruth55: I was away for a week, but am now back, and ready to resume... I assume there is more to come. All the best, Simon Burchell (talk) 19:15, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Update:Review still in progress, and Auntieruth55 has confirmed her willingness to continue when real-world business allows. Simon Burchell (talk) 16:53, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
Update: ok, taxes are done, I'll get to this tomorrow. auntieruth (talk) 01:07, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Auntieruth55, it will soon be next month. ;-) Any chance for a quick resumption? Thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 21:38, 30 April 2017 (UTC)

doneEdit

sorry, I used the wrong template. It has indeed passed, and is listed in the good article category. auntieruth (talk) 19:31, 5 May 2017 (UTC))

Thanks for the thorough review, especially appreciated for such a long article, and it's always nice to see a better article come out at the end. Many thanks and best regards, Simon Burchell (talk) 12:08, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
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