Talk:Siyi

Merge

What is the merge tag doing up there? Siyi redirects to this article!?!?!?!!!!!!!100110100 22:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems that User:Contributor168 has already merged the two,[1] even though only little information at Siyi has made it into the Sze Yup article.[2] If everbody's happy now, we can remove the tag. I wonder if there's some rule that Chinese place names must be in Hanyu pinyin in article's names, then we'd have to move it all to Siyi. Wikipeditor 20:17, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Siyi vs Sze Yup and other Remarks on Romanizations

It is better to redirect to Siyi, rather than vice versa, for the following two reasons. (1) The Anglicized spelling of the Cantonese term Sze Yup is non-standard. This spelling is bound to be confusing, as it does not represent any official Chinese/Cantonese/Siyi/Taishan romanization, such as Hanyu Pinyin, Jyutping, or Wade-Giles. While Sze Yup represents a "local" pronunciation, insomuch as Cantonese is the official language of local government, it does not represent the native pronunciation, which is perhaps the most distinguishing characteristic of the "four counties". In contrast, while the use of Siyi has the drawback of not being a local pronunciation, it has the benefit of using the orthography of a national and widely recognized standard, Hanyu Pinyin. (2) Aside from being non-standard, Sze Yap is infrequent and this term's usage is restricted to popular (non-academic) writings of and by Chinese expatriates and Chinese born abroad (as an example, the novel The Jade Peony). Use of Sze Yup almost invariably marks the author as Chinese American/Australian, and this inference will certainly (even if accidentally) denote a bias towards the views the Chinese expatriate community. The use of Siyi has the major advantage of not being so inherently tied to a particular demographic, and likewise is a better expression of Wikipedia's neutrality. In short, the title Siyi has the advantage of being written in a standard orthography, and it also avoids representation of an expatriate bias in the article.

Aaron Lee 04:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd also prefer pinyin. The naming conventions say:

In general, Chinese entries should be in Hanyu Pinyin. Exceptions would include:

• When there is a more popularly used form in English (such as “Taoism”)
• When the subject of the entry is likely to object to romanization in pinyin.

When an entry is not in pinyin form, a redirect to the article from the pinyin form could be helpful.

Perhaps this place is mostly known to the English-speaking world via its diaspora, which would give some weight to a romanisation reflecting local pronunciation – but since it's still a place in China, pinyin wouldn't be so bad. If we start putting the lemma in a local form not only for cities like Amoy, but even for smaller places like this one, we'd have to find out what the majority language is for each place or area in China. Wikipeditor 11:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Somebody removed Hànyǔ pīnyīn from the article. Please justify your removal or put it back in. Wikipeditor 19:42, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

四邑片 versus 四邑話

I have changed 四邑片 to 四邑話 in order to capture the appropriate terminology, which is also the most commonly used in speech and writing. Both terms are correct, but 四邑話 refers to the language that people speak, while 四邑片 refers to the dialects as a subdivision of a larger dialect group. Aaron Lee 16:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Siyi. EdJohnston (talk) 04:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

---

Sze Yup → Siyi – Looking at the above discussions, the first source (the second is a dead link), and considering the usage on other pages as well as current PRC language policy, Siyi would seem the more logical name The non-Pinyin usage(s), such as in the external links, seem mostly historical, and also are a poor guide for name the article because of Cantonese's inconsistent romanisation. JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 01:15, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose the region speaks Hoisanese natively and Cantonese more generally, so we should use Seiyap, as the more accurately rendered version of the name of the region as used by the natives of the region. Further, Cantonese is a dialect that has legal recognition inside China, unlike the other non-Mandarin dialects, so using Cantonese romanization is purposeful and correct. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 02:00, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
  • comment if it stays with a Cantonese romanisation I'd agree Seiyap is far better as the more modern and current way of rendering it in English. Still though think Pinyin is preferable, for the reasons above.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 02:26, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
  • What "legal recognition" do you mean for Cantonese? Official PRC atlases don't list placenames in Guangdong with any Cantonese romanization. Neither do third-party reliable sources. Shrigley (talk) 00:09, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
• Weak support - I don't oppose the current title, but can see the advantage of 1 consistent wikipedipinyin (stripped pinyin) rather than two competing Cantonese spellings. Linguistic sources seem to prefer the pinyin. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:16, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
  • We use Tibetan romanization instead of Pinyin in those articles, so it seems like a Cantonese transcription should be the one chosen -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 05:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
    • Your comparison is spurious because the Chinese government uses Tibetan pinyin names for Tibetan and other ethnic minority regions, not the Chinese-language name. Third-party sources are split between the Chinese pinyin name, the Tibetan pinyin name, and a conventional Tibetan transcription (if they are particularly anti-government). Our treatment of that controversial subject is not consistent.
      More relevantly to this article, the Chinese government uses Chinese pinyin (i.e. Putonghua) for Han regions like Siyi, and not local dialect. All of our placenames in Guangdong and Fujian (where the local dialect is somewhat known among English speakers) are in pinyin, not ad-hoc dialect romanization. Shrigley (talk) 00:09, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
      • Cantonese is one of the few recognized dialects of Chinese in China with some official standing, so Cantonese is recognized inside China, with officially sanctioned cultural dessiminators. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 03:35, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Siyi describes a place within China, and is the conventional transcription of Chinese used by reliable (non-anthropological) sources. Yes, a lot of undereducated peasants emigrated from there in past centuries, and did not know the name for their region in the national language (as they would now). We tailor the encyclopedia to our policies, and not their sensitivities. The most well-known place in Siyi is named Taishan for the pinyin, and not "Toisan" (Cantonese) or "Hoisan" (Taishanese). Besides, Cantonese and Taishanese don't have standardized transcriptions. Shrigley (talk) 00:09, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
  • It does, there are standardized transcription systems for Cantonese. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 03:35, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:PINYIN which calls for pinyin usage except when another form is more common in English. Would be fine with a move to Seiyap for the same reasons, though. —  AjaxSmack  01:34, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

  Actually, Siyi is more common than Seiyap in English by a factor of 34. "Seiyap" + (Guangdong OR Canton): 6,440 results; "Siyi" + (Guangdong OR Canton) 220,000 results. Shrigley (talk) 03:11, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

  Regular Google hits are a poor way to judge this; at least use Google Books. However, you inspired me to investigate further and a variety of sources indeed use the Pekinese pronunciation far more than the Cantonese variants. Thanks. —  AjaxSmack  01:11, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

• Support. Siyi is more common in the English-language sources I've seen. Kanguole 16:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.