Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War

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Naming this a ‘war’ without addressing the primary offensive against civilians is in error.Edit

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

How can this be called ‘an ongoing war’ when Ukraine was a sovereign nation attacked on Feb 24, 2022 by Russian forces? How can this be called a ‘war’ when top military experts worldwide are calling this a genocide? Calling this a ‘war’ and an ‘extension of a war in from 2014,’ seems to exclude the unique and obvious situation of an unprovoked attack on primarily civilians. 2601:190:C400:9E30:458F:5D8E:F216:7666 (talk) 00:00, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you can look at the current situation and not see it as a war. Attacks on civilians doesn't make it not a war. However, in terms of when the war started, you might be looking for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine article. — Czello 11:24, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
Could you explain why you believe it not to be a 'war' because of these factors and what else it would be called? I might be missing something but a war frequently includes civilian casualties. ★Ama TALK CONTRIBS 13:39, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
The current situation does not meet the UN definition of genocide. Such inflation of the term constitutes Holocaust denial according to many scholars, among others J. Arch Getty and Kristen Ghodsee if memory serves me right. KetchupSalt (talk) 11:48, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
Thirty genocide and legal experts published a report saying that the Russian state is guilty of inciting genocide, has committed genocidal acts listed in the convention, that genocide may be taking place, and that state parties to the convention have an obligation to prevent it.[1][2]
The “Holocaust denial” idea defies logic. If these academics are saying someone (who?) is somehow denying the Holocaust by examining Russian war crimes, please provide references and not just baseless innuendo. —Michael Z. 13:53, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
My apologies, I was being imprecise with language. What I mean specifically is that 2601:190:C400:9E30:458F:5D8E:F216:7666's assertion that mere violation of a country's sovereignty and the killing of civilians does not constitute genocide, or else nearly every invasion in modern history would be a genocide. Such expansion of the term also waters it down, which is a well-known tactic employed by fascists since the end of World War II, specifically for trivializing the Holocaust. It is of course entirely possible that the Russian government is intent on genocide in Ukraine, especially in light of Putin's speech before the invasion where he denied the existence of the Ukrainian nation, as indeed the report you link points out. KetchupSalt (talk) 17:06, 19 July 2022 (UTC)
The conflict has been frozen since 2015. Moreover, why should it be called a war when the countries have not declared war on each other? Even Ukraine, which screams about how "evil Russian orcs rape 100,500 women per second and cook jelly from Ukrainian children," has not declared war. 213.87.102.249 (talk) 18:46, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
Although it must be admitted that Ukraine does not really like wars. For example, in 2014, Ukraine used the brand name "Anti-Terrorist Operation" instead of the civil war. 213.87.102.249 (talk) 18:50, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately the people running this site don’t know how it works. It’s clear that the Russia-Ukraine war started on february 24 according to every single source, yet they bring up pointless self published books and change the notion of this war Wikiman92783 (talk) 11:09, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Pleae read wp:soap. Slatersteven (talk) 11:35, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
Please read literally every single other wikipedia guideline article and learn how to run the site and stop sending personal insults. Wikiman92783 (talk) 20:11, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Woah, let's calm down and stop starting fights. Let's work together to settle this civilly. BadKarma22 (talk) 04:52, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

In other wiki articles they list other names for the event in the first few sentences which could work as something of a middle ground. I've seen Putin's War thrown around in the West. I can't find a really good name from any Russia source though. The best might be: Russia's Ukraine Operation which I found in Russia Today, but even that's a bit too technical. I don't know how Wiki formatting works 2:03, 11 May 2022 (EST) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:1900:A5A0:892E:7508:FA84:85F4 (talk)

I love the name "Russo-Ukrainian War": traditionally, the loser of the conflict gets the hyphenated prefix and the victor gets the full name. So.... Russo-Japanese War (they lost that one too), Franco-Prussian War? Don't even need to look it up to know who won. Russo-Ukrainian is quite accurate! 70.51.88.190 (talk) 01:26, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

And how did they lose the war? This has aged like milk. 2A02:8388:2100:E400:C824:9941:9A0D:5854 (talk) 14:49, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Refinement for Russo-Ukrainian War # Pro-Russian unrestEdit

In the sentence (last of section),

«The role of the Kremlin's military intervention was paramount for hostilities to begin.»,

«begin» should be replaced by e.g. «continue». «begin» is incompatible with the text before. It's also refined later in the source*. There, «commencement» is in the abstract, but «continuation» at p. 530.

Mykhnenko, Vlad (2020). "Causes and Consequences of the War in Eastern Ukraine: An Economic Geography Perspective". Europe-Asia Studies. 72 (3): 530. doi:10.1080/09668136.2019.1684447. The role of the Kremlin’s covert military intervention, aided by its local proxies, remains paramount, necessary and sufficient for the continuation of hostilities.

(Forgot to sign, so here: – Markus Prokott (talk) 03:34, 6 July 2022 (some Time))

Both are saying that without Russian military intervention a war would not have started and continued (at date of publication) for five years. In case that’s not clear, the essay unequivocally states: “The war in Donbas was principally the end result of foreign instigation, intervention and invasion, aided and abetted by collaborating elements of the Yanukovych regime” and “the evidence presented here points to the paramount role of exogenous political agency and of endogenous military geography in explaining the outbreak of the armed conflict in eastern Ukraine in April 2014.” —Michael Z. 17:26, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
For some reason, the author of the source says in the abstract «commencement», later «continuation». The first one seems to be, at least, mistakable. In the more relevant main part, the author decides for «continuation», which is backed by the rest of the text (and probably its references) here. The term «hostilities» also is generally to broad to apply a clear «start» to it, at all. For prevention of error, we should stick to the most binding part of the source and/or be more precise about the hostilities.
What «Both [words] are saying» isn't the problem. It's their difference. What else you present of the source isn't in contrast of either wording, or is it? – Markus Prokott (talk) 09:41, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
I don’t see the problem. We are using this source to support a statement that the main cause of the war was actions by Moscow, although other factors contributed. The wording can be tweaked, but I don’t think we disagree. —Michael Z. 18:37, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
Indeed, there is no problem. Never claimed a content-wise dissent. It's solely about a more accurate wording that fits better to the rest of the text, as well as the source's main section. Normally a tiny job, but with that protection in effect I can't do it. – Markus Prokott (talk) 11:50, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

South OssetiaEdit

Since South Ossetia has some of its forces attached to Russian military, and there have been South Ossetian desertions from Ukraine (therefore we conclude that there are south ossetian troops there), shouldn't the breakaway state be considered a co-belligerent? 2804:14D:5C59:5717:385A:9FDA:283E:DD25 (talk) 22:26, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I think they were Russian citizens and volunteers, and the S.O. quasi-state is not participating. Check what was discussed in archives here. —Michael Z. 02:46, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

*added Japan South Korea United States Taiwan AustraliaEdit

  • added Japan South Korea United States Taiwan Australia Jonathan555568 (talk) 11:13, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

separate section for International law violationsEdit

a separate section for all the international violations presumably done by the parties will be a good addition.... any views? 203.115.91.240 (talk) 23:07, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Strength of the Armed Forces of UkraineEdit

Anyone have some references to the current estimated strength under mobilization of the AFU, as well as the National Guard, Border Guard, and Territorial Defence? The infobox under “Strength” directs us to Order of battle for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, but that article has only organization and no numbers whatsoever. —Michael Z. 20:08, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Renzikov says “We have approximately 700,000 in the armed forces and when you add the national guard, police, border guard, we are around a million strong.”[3] —Michael Z. 20:32, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

CasualtiesEdit

The casualty section probably needs updating Patbahn (talk) 01:48, 3 August 2022 (UTC)