Talk:Robin DiAngelo

Scrubbed Criticism

It has been fascinating to watch Wikipedia gradually and carefully scrub all criticism of others from the Wikipedia page. For such a polarizing and controversial figure who ideas are often criticized as neo-racism by her contemporaries, there is zero mention of it on her Wikipedia page. Wikipedia's oozing left-wing bias is on display yet again. There used to be a controversy section that got shorter and shorter than was removed entirely, it included a dozen different sources at its peak. The editors here should be ashamed of themselves. Watch this post vanish away into the abyss as well by Robin's neo-racist fans. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.239.49.235 (talk) 09:43, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Could you provide some reliable sources that explain what "neo-racism" is and why DiAngelo's work falls into the category, please? — Bilorv (talk) 10:18, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely agree! I see this more often lately and anytime I have commented, complained or lamented this fact I would receive intense backlash for my opinion! Dacroce1 (talk) 06:18, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Here is a source giving some criticism, but there's plenty in the academic literature.

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/20/892943728/professor-criticizes-book-white-fragility-as-dehumanizing-to-black-people Rustygecko (talk) 01:06, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

There's lots more of it

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/antiracism-training-white-fragility-robin-diangelo-ibram-kendi.html Rustygecko (talk) 01:10, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

London Times

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nice-racism-by-robin-diangelo-review-rwgnb82mm Rustygecko (talk) 01:15, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Rips it to pieces

https://medium.com/arc-digital/dear-white-people-please-do-not-read-robin-diangelos-white-fragility-7e735712ee1b Rustygecko (talk) 01:19, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Okay, so? There are plenty of reviews that are not quoted in the article. This article should contain a very, very short set of examples of what's available in the literature, and the book articles can contain a little bit more, but we cannot summarise each of hundreds or possibly thousands of reviews. — Bilorv (talk) 08:39, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

"Okay so?" That's your response? Nobody is saying Wikipedia should summarize every critique of her out there but anytime anyone adds in section about the large amount of controversary surrounding her work it gets scrubbed. Douglas Murray refers to her espousing a kind of Neo-Racism in his book The War On The West. His book is a New York Times Bestseller unless I am mistaken. She is a deeply controversial figure but any mention of it at all gets scrubbed from Wikipedia. Meanwhile J.K. Rowling has a section discussing her views on biology sex and transgender people. But we can't discuss any of this with Robin Diangelo? 73.239.49.235 (talk) 00:00, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Gain consensus here before including. Inserting with an edit summary demanding discussion to remove is not how this works.(And I do think the article may be a little too kind to her given how other writer's controversial views are covered.) However, most of the criticism is directed at her published works, rather than personal statements she has made, which is significantly different than JK RowlingSlywriter (talk) 00:29, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

To avoid any confusion my stance is that we include a section detailing the controversy around Diangelo. There used to be one that slowly shrank in size until it was completely removed. 73.239.49.235 (talk) 01:21, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm sure what else I can say, if consensus is required than I will never overcome being stonewalled. Is there anyone with a substantial criticism to the inclusion of this section? If not i'll resubmit it in a month. 73.239.49.235 (talk) 01:24, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I proposed an extremely minimal section since I think anything substantial would be automatically denied. 73.239.49.235 (talk) 01:19, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Controversy sections inherently violate neutral point of view. In every article, there should be no separation of positive and negative material: both should be interspersed, as is the case in this article. Indeed, if we take the "Works" section and exclude the content that can neither be seen as positive nor negative ("DiAngelo wrote book X in year Y"), about half of the section is negative feedback and half the section either puts forward DiAngelo's view or gives positive feedback. This is already quite negatively skewed. Adding more negative feedback without adding more of the positive feedback (almost all of which is currently omitted) violates due weight. — Bilorv (talk) 12:27, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

The idea that the content of her wikipedia page is too negative is absurd. Here's the only bit the addresses

" The book received mixed critical reception, with positive reviews in sources including New Statesman, The New Yorker, Publishers Weekly, and the Los Angeles Review of Books, and negative reviews in sources including The Atlantic and The Washington Post. Publishers Weekly praised the book as "a thoughtful, instructive, and comprehensive book on challenging racism." Isaac Chotiner, in The New Yorker, said that in the wake of the Murder of George Floyd and the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement, DiAngelo's book served as a guide for many of the millions of Americans questioning systematic racism, though he notes that some critics have described her definition of white fragility as broad, reductive, and condescending towards people of color."

As you can see it is half of one line smashed between two lines complimenting her on a Wikipedia page that is full of praise for her work. The amount of praise disproportionate praise for her work would seem to violate neutral point of view. Considering that a large number of her contemporaries view her as a leading figure in a neo-racist movement, its odd that this is all the mention that gets. Meanwhile J.K Rowling has a whole sections dedicated to things she said on twitter. This is wikipedia's left wing bias being observed in real time.

It is bizarre to me that any attempt to characterize how an authors work was received in its hayday violates neutral point of view. I would bet a large sum of money I could come back in 40 years when the political winds have changed and there won't be such a strident fight against anything critical of Diangelo being included. 73.239.49.235 (talk) 17:12, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Theres also the last part of the final line where it says its condescending, hardly an overly harsh review. 73.239.49.235 (talk) 17:14, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I do think the lack of a “criticism” section on this article is a glaring omission. TrottieTrue (talk) 18:00, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I fully agree. How can it be that there is no criticism section of the perception in this article? I expect every wikipedia article on authors, especially controversial ones, to also mention the controversial parts, as this is part of the trust in the article itself. 176.198.202.169 (talk) 12:50, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Here is an example from other languages translated to english:

For Katy Waldman, a journalist at the New Yorker, the book is more diagnostic than solution-oriented and its value lies in its "methodical and irrefutable exposition of racism in thought and action, and in its call for humility and vigilance.

The journalist of the weekly Marianne Hadrien Mathoux writes that this book "has been widely criticized for its conceptual weakness. Carlos Lozada, a reviewer for the Washington Post, notes that the book's flagship concept, built on circular reasoning, proves fallacious: "Either white people admit that they are inherently and eternally racist, and vow to work on their white fragility, in which case DiAngelo's estimates are correct; or they resist such categorizations, or dispute the interpretation of a particular incident, in which case they are merely proving DiAngelo right." For Jonathan Haidt, a New York ethics professor, DiAngelo promotes "a paranoid worldview that separates people from each other and sends them down the road to alienation, anxiety and intellectual impotence.

Nosheen Iqbal, editorial writer for The Guardian, calls DiAngelo's book a "radical statement in a time when the debate is so polarized. Kenan Malik, also a Guardian journalist, argues that the book is "psychoverbiage" that counterproductively shifts the debate from structural change to individual bias, leaving the real issues untouched.

I'd appreciate to have points like these raised, too. 176.198.202.169 (talk) 12:59, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

This is ridiculous, add back the controversy section. She has made racist remarks repeatedly. If she was right leaning she would be described as a alt-right pos with tons of controversy. It's so clearly left bias to not mention any controversy surrounding her it's infuriating. Neatoconnect (talk) 04:03, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Which quotes by DiAngelo do you wish to be added to the article (and which sources)? We include several on her explanation of "white fragility", include the quote "To be less white is to: be less oppressive, less arrogant, less certain, less defensive, less ignorant, more humble" with criticism, and also note with regards to diversity training: "there is no evidence to indicate that anti-bias training leads to increases in the number of women or people of color in management positions". However, it is not neutral to segregate positive and negative content, and instead content should be sorted by topic or chronology, whether positive or negative. — Bilorv (talk) 15:35, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

"However, it is not neutral to segregate positive and negative content, and instead content should be sorted by topic or chronology, whether positive or negative."

Much of the world reads wikipedia biographies expecting to see a section on crticism. Most entries have one. This one does not, yet the subject of the article is notable, partly, for being the subject of intense criticism. That is rather suspect. I would strongly dispute the notion that a criticism section is "not neutral", that's not really making any sense.

People want the material organized in a way that saves them time and provides information, not in a way that deliberately obfuscates and skews meaning under the guise of neutrality. Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophist#Criticism 2A02:C7F:5D42:D700:99AC:5C0D:146B:DBAD (talk) 08:14, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

What you are saying is just not true. It is perfectly permissible to have a criticism section under wikipedia rules.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Criticism 2A02:C7F:5D42:D700:99AC:5C0D:146B:DBAD (talk) 09:18, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Is Robin DiAngelo Jewish?

At the bottom of the page, one of the categories that Robin DiAngelo is listed under is the category Category:Jewish American writers. However, nowhere in the article does it indicate that Robin DiAngelo is Jewish. 73.168.5.183 (talk) 04:15, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Removed. Categories still need to be verifiable to a cited reliable source. Thanks for flagging the issue! — Bilorv (talk) 20:14, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Add ‘Controversy’ section

Somebody more versed in Wikipedia editing should add a ‘Controversy’ section. For example, her statement that ‘there is no good form of whiteness’ attracted widespread criticism, sources of which can easily be found with a quick Google search. 77.99.9.128 (talk) 09:17, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:CSECTION, content should not be segregated based on whether it is positive or negative. Criticism or praise (in accurate proportion) should be included directly alongside facts. — Bilorv (talk) 20:36, 18 November 2023 (UTC)

Add Controversy section

Since my previous topic was removed for some reason, I'm gonna write another. Add a controversy section to this page. Vv93spst (talk) 15:54, 15 January 2024 (UTC)