Talk:Petros Lantzas

Removing RS content

It would be nice if users could explain on the talk pages what they think is fringe about the reliable source prior to removing it. Ahmet Q. (talk) 01:11, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

The source is not viewable online, it is locked in some Google Drive. Can you please post the full quote so we can verify? Thanks in advance. If no quote is provided I will remove on the grounds of non-verifiability. Khirurg (talk) 01:30, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

The source is viewable to me so I don't understand, maybe it has something to do with your computer. If other users have the same problem, then I will quote it. Ahmet Q. (talk) 03:12, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

But wait a moment, why did you call it fringe when you don't even have access to the source? This doesn't make any sense Khirurg. Ahmet Q. (talk) 03:18, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Because it sounds rather fringey, frankly. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt for now, but if no quote is provided, WP:AGF is voided. You should be more cooperative. Khirurg (talk) 03:22, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Exactly, even Xhufi makes speculations based on anothersource which assumes that a far ancestor came from Boutrotum, and well bingo Boutrotum=his ancestor some 200-150 years before Lantza lived was Albanian. That's ridiculous, we have crystal clear material that his family was native in Corfu with connection from western Europe. You can fill an RfC, but this sounds way too POV and clear UNDUE since you are adding an entire paragraph about speculations of a forgotten ancestor. Imagine to add similar info about Edi Rama's ancestors from Himara (Koleka etc.). You understand that this kind of over-emphasizing on fringe speculations about family trees is disruptive. Alexikoua (talk) 07:26, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I also wonder why information about his grandfather should be duplicated.Alexikoua (talk) 08:01, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Xhufi Supports an Albanian origin for them and he is a reliable. He does not cite Lamansky as a suggestion, but as further proof of his assertion. Alexikuoa did not use the citation correctly. Durraz0 (talk) 15:45, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Duraz0 can you translate the following: Vladimir Lamansky i konsideron ata shqiptare (l' albanais Piero Lantza)? Nevertheless, if Xhufi believes that one of his ancestors that lived 200 years before was Albanian that's not the subject of this article and falls into wp:FRINGE. We have enough bibliography that rejects this kind of extraordinary speculation.Alexikoua (talk) 22:05, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

@Alexikoua: You can't remove contemporary bibliography which specifically discusses a subject and claim "BRD" after other editors oppose the removal. @Durraz0: added a full quote which reads Kalimi i Lanzave në Korfuz ka ndodhur, si edhe për shumë krerë feudalë shqiptarë, gjatë periudhës së pushtimit osman. Megjithatë, bie në sy fakti se Lanza ynë, i cili, edhe nëse nuk kishte lindur, me siguri duhet të kishte dekata që jetonte në Korfuz, nuk identifikohet si korfiotët e tjerë me përcaktorin "vendas" e aq më pak "grek". Nuk indentifikohet, vërtet, as si "shqiptar", siç për shëmbull, cilësohej më 1596 një tjetër fisnik korfiot me origjinë nga Himara (capitan Candido Albanese) = (translation) The passage of the Lanza to Corfu took place, as well as that of many other Albanian feudal lords, during the period of Ottoman occupation. However, it is striking that our Lanza, who, even if he had not been born, must have had decades living in Corfu, is not identified like other Corfiots with as a "native" or a "Greek". He is also not identified as an "Albanian", as is in 1596 another Corfiot nobleman originally from Himara (Captain Candido Albanese). --Maleschreiber (talk) 00:59, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Durraz0 I think that you missed something. Xhufi writes that Gjithsesi, certifikatën e tij të garancise e plotësonte një "shënim biografik", ku thuhet se Lanza ishte i biri i djalit jashtë martese të një ushtaraku të lartë venecian, i Kapitenit të Përgjithshëm, Benedetto da Pesaro. = However, his warranty certificate was accompanied by a "biographical note" stating that Lanza was the the illegitimate son of a senior Venetian military commander, Captain General Benedetto da Pesaro.--Maleschreiber (talk) 01:10, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

(unindent) Looking more into this, the more I am convinced that it falls within WP:FRINGE. First, it is contradicted by mainstream sources that state the Lanzas were of western origin. Second, Lanza is a common Italian name. Third, Pellumb Xhufi is controversial, he is on record saying the Tepelenë Internment Camp of the Hoxha regime was not really a concentration camp, despite the deaths of hundreds of people. He has been extensively criticized by Albanian historians for allegedly falsifying sources. This can easily be seen in the sq.wiki article [1]. We can't have sources lie this in an encyclopedia, much less in wikipedia voice. As for Vladimir Lamansky, who is he? I've never heard of him. Can someon verify LAmansky actuslly wrote something like this and provide the quote? Why can't we quote Lamansky directly if that's the case, instead of relying on Xhufi? Khirurg (talk) 05:18, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Exactly this is extremely POV. For the record the name 'Lantzas' was found throughout the Greek word: There was another P. Lanza found in... Cyprus in 1408 [[2]] (and that's c. the same time Lamansky's Lanza lived). Fact is that this is also irrelevant with this specific individual we are dealing in this article: either Cypriot or Epirote or whatever, there is plenty of mainstream material that offers detailed descriptions about his family. Messing this with wp:FRINGE isn't cool.08:33, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Khirurg:@Alexikoua: The source conforms to all aspects of WP:RS. It can not be called fringe or dismissed with comments about the author who is a member of the Academy of Sciences of Albania and a highly respected historian. On grounds of WP:FRINGE, this is not getting removed because it is not fringe at all. At the very most we can add that the family was possibly of Albanian origin, but that is as far as a mix & match comparison of the sources can go and even that is too much because no other source says anything about the family itself so Xhufi is really uncontested. Durraz0 (talk) 13:14, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Lamanski did not invent a Lanza or picked a random Lanza to connect to this one. He published letters written by & to the Lanza of the article. One of the letters directed to him has the title: ORDRE DU CONCEIL DES X RELATIF A L'ALBANAIS PIERO LANZA [3] Durraz0 (talk) 13:25, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@Durraz0: It's weird that you recently removed material backed by University of Standford academics in P. Bitsilis. We already have access to mainstream western academics that dismisses this FRINGE about Lantzas' supposed ancestor. Your argument is extremely poor to warrant inclusion in wikipedia: a single author inside Albania claims that there was a certain (Albanian) ancestor that lived c.200 before the specific individual lived (based on speculations).... simply FRINGE. Don't add this FRINGE again its really disruptive.Alexikoua (talk) 13:31, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Before you invoke a guideline, you should do the grunt work and read what it refers to. Wikipedia:Fringe_theories#Spectrum of fringe theories An article published in a top journal of the Academy of Sciences of a country written by a member of that academy is not WP:FRINGE. Durrazo's proposal may be a good solution. @Khirurg: All problems begin because Alexikoua has apparently created a series of biographies - all of which are about individuals who had some Albanian ancestry and ignored this aspect of their biography. If Alexikoua didn't do that, then no problem would exist.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:12, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

I was unable to find any English-language sources linking Lantzas to the word "Albanian" or "Albania". That does tell us something. For the Albanian origin claim, we have only one Albanian-language source which fails WP:REPUTABLE and, IMO, would have a very hard time passing WP:RS at WP:RSN. - LouisAragon (talk) 14:20, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

The current addition is entirely problematic from beginning .... Latzas family (hmmm... 200 years before the specific Lantzas lived) was an Albanian noble family. but that's based on speculation by a single author. FRINGE is Wikipedia:Fringe_theories#Spectrum of fringe theories. @Maleschreiber: it's very weird you consider as 'top' institution the Albanian academy of science while at the same time you instantly remove University of Standford publications.Alexikoua (talk) 22:18, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

@LouisAragon: The paper cited in this article doesn't call Lanza Albanian, it doesn't discuss his ethnicity. It discusses his family and the author writes that Pietro Lanza may not have even been a Lanza. The article title needs to be changed. If someone searches for "Lanza" in relation to Albania, there are many sources for other Lanza and for this one: Himarrë native Pietro Lanza, who was suspected of collaboration with the Spanish and of organizing a major revolt against the Ottomans Returning Home to Rome: The Basilian Monks of Grottaferrata in Albania. Xhufi (2016) published in Albanian is a 2016 paper in Studime Historike. It's the oldest and most reputable Albanian journal, published by the Academy of Sciences of Albania. If someone wants to go to RSN, we can discuss the paper there but the question would be whether Studime Historike is a reliable source. I think that it'll be very hard for someone to argue that it's not a reliable publication. Side comment: The point is not to prove that he "belonged" to this or that ethnicity, but to highlight that no such unambiguous classification existed for many people who came from contact areas of multiethnic empires. --Maleschreiber (talk) 23:43, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

The issue is that Xhufi has been accused by other Albanian historians of falsofying sources, so this makes his claims very dubious. Encyclopedia articles should be written to a high standard. We can't have stuff like this. Also, why can't anyone answer my questions regarding this Vladimir Lamansky? Khirurg (talk) 03:56, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

I have replied to you about Lamanski [4]. Do not bring up accusations which are found less against academics. There are no peer-viewed papers which accuse Xhufi of "falsification" of anything and he has never defended interment camps. Durraz0 (talk) 11:57, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Xhufi's theory is nothing more that his personal view based on assumptions. By the way the specific url of his work is uploaded by an unknown editor from googledrive. This raises serious questions if that's indeed the final (peer reviewed version) of this work (why isn't any ISSN or DOI etc/ found in this journal?). Well, I can upload everything on googledrive (before converting it to pdf format) and claiming whatever I like. It's also weird for some editors here to instantly remove University of Standford publications while on the other hand promoting abandoned offline works such as this one.Alexikoua (talk) 13:34, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

You have called his work fringe multiple times without providing any actual evidence for that, I am not sure if you understand how disruptive this is according to Wikipedia's guidelines. Furthermore, another user here tried to diminish the author's reputation with fallacies. Your last edit is inappropriate, seek consensus prior to making POV-edits. And if you somehow believe I falsified the source, feel free to buy it yourself. Ahmet Q. (talk) 13:47, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

As several non-Albanian and 3rd part editors noted its indeed fringe: a single Albanian author in 2016 contrary to the mainstream view claims that a specific Albanian ancestor lived c.200 year before the individual of this article... that's way too FRINGE. By the way Xhufi's work is nothing more than a googledrive url here. I can't see if that's the final and peer reviewed version... (no ISSN, no DOI inside this pdf file, nothing to prove that this was published in some way... ). Also please stop messing up mainstream material with Xhufi's claim which is in completey disagreement with all what we know about Latzas. Per wp:AGF I don't remove this part instantly but place it under the FRINGE tag.Alexikoua (talk) 13:57, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

• Xhufi writes that the Lanza family was of Albanin origin and that Lanza may not have even a member of the Lanza family. His view is uncontested because no other source discusses the origins of the family.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:51, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

His view is contested since Lantza family had western origins. There is no primary material found in Corfu or any other contemporary record that claims Albanian origins about this specific individual. Xhufi's 2016 claim is the only one that claims this extraordinary information about Lantzas. Per AGF this part is placed under the appropriate tag for now.Alexikoua (talk) 14:56, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

The tag is for fringe opinions. Bibliography already agrees that the family was not of local origin. Xhufi expands on the consensus, he doesn't contradict it. A historiographical paper which is the only one which discusses the Lanza family in depth in a reliable publication can't be placed under WP:FRINGE. I put forward some changes and rewrote it as a likely theory - per what Durraz0 proposed. The title should be changed. Most sources don't discuss a "Lantzas" but a "Pietro Lanza", his father "Andrea Lanza" and other Lanza.--Maleschreiber (talk) 15:23, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

The issue is that 1) Xhufi is the only source that claims an Albanian origin, but this is presented in wikipedia voice, 2) he has been accused by other Albanian historians of source falsification, and every time I bring this up, it is ignored, and 3) the only link to the source is a locked Google Drive. That's not how things should be done around here. Khirurg (talk) 16:48, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Nobody has accused him of "falsifying sources". I asked you on RSN if you can find any paper written by an Albanian historian which accuses him of such a thing. You Will not find any.  He is a member of ASA and writes in reliable international publications Xhufi, Pëllumb (2020). Picard, Christophe (ed.). Rebelles et unionistes dans les Balkans ottomans: l'insurrection d'Epire de 1611. Presses universitaires du Midi. p. 287. ISBN 2810709912. . Accessibility does not determine reliability but you can see the pdf if you login to a gmail account. It is how Studime Historike uploads their volumes online. It is cumbersome but it has nothing to do with reliability. Durraz0 (talk) 17:16, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

This claim by Xhufi is completely ignored and is wp:FRINGE no wonder no other works takes this claims as historical reality. A 2016 speculation made by one single author needs to be confirmed, no matter if it's Xhufi or any other.Alexikoua (talk) 06:29, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Xhufi (2016) is the most recent publication on the subject.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:26, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Comite Lanca

Asonitis, Spiros (1998). The regimen Corphoy and the Albanians: As we saw, in 1394 the peril of an impending Turkish assault against Buthroton and Argyrokastron had dictated the co-operation of the Albanian lords of the region with the administration of Corfu for the fortification of Examilion. (..) lohana Silvestrocataro (sic) promisit dare bonam subventionem et similiter habere sperat a comité Lanca et fortasse ab alii I think that this family split into two branches after migration from Albania: one in Corfu and the other in southern Italy. Domenico Lanza, of Arberesh origin, who wrote Ancora su gli Albanesi in Calabria Capitolazioni stipulate negli anni 1490 e 1510 fra il Vescovo di Cassano e gli Albanesi must have been from the Italian branch.--Maleschreiber (talk) 16:03, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

No wonder Asonitis does not connect the specific one with Petros Lantzas. That's yet another argument to remove Xhufi's FRINGE. On the other hand it does seem possible that the P. Lantzas from Cyprus (lived in 1405) had some connection with this P. Lantzas.Alexikoua (talk) 22:59, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

There are no "Lantzas". This individual signed as Pietro Lanza. And if you call Xhufi (2016) WP:FRINGE with no bibliography, admin oversight will be brought because it's a BLP violation. Thank you.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:26, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Extraordinary claim needs strong evidence and Xhufi's theory is indeed into FRINGE territory in this case (no wonder no other works confirms him). About BLP, I have to remind you that you need to be careful towards distinguished and well respected politician, such as V. Bolano.Alexikoua (talk) 06:26, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

None of the four WP:EXTRAORDINARY criteria are related to Xhufi (2016). The mainstream opinion is that Lanza was a family which settled in Greece from another country. Xhufi expands on the mainstream opinion and calls them of Albanian origin - a very likely indication about such origins was already attested in archival documents by Lamanski. Murzaku (2009) in a similar theory considers him a native of Himara, Albania. New discussions presuppose new arguments. The discussion is over from my perspective. If new sources emerge, they can be compared and contrasted with existing bibliography. Have a good day. --Maleschreiber (talk) 11:26, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

Surname

The surname should be Lantza. Out of the English the sources in the article:

- Murzaku 2009, Giuzman 2021, Gurkan 2012 and Braudel 1995 use Lanza/Lantza

- Only Lubin 2012 uses Lantzas

Çerçok (talk) 06:53, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Not Llanxhë? Are you quite sure?  •ΘΕΟΔΩΡΟΣ• 16:33, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Malcolm, Lubin, Floristan Tsiknakis and others prefer Lantzas, we should also use Lantzas for consistency reasons. Off course Italian and Spanish records used Lanza but they all state that he is a Greek so the Greek form can stay.Alexikoua (talk) 22:33, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for agreeing with me. Floristan is in Spanish, so only Lubin and Malcolm (only once) use Lantzas in English. Çerçok (talk) 00:13, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Although in Spanish Floristan prefers the Greeks form. Since you included Albanian authors (but still English works), here are some additional English works: Vranousis [[5]], Vakalopoulos [[6]], Papadamou [[7]], that prefer 'Lantzas' in their English publications. It was a time where Corfu was under Venetian control, as such it's no wonder that the Italian and works based on Italian sources (Murzaku) prefer him as "Pietro". All forms can stay in lead and infobox.Alexikoua (talk) 18:26, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Alexikoua was reverted. "Politician Xhufi" is not a neutral way to cite a source and not what the consensus wording is about this section.Alltan (talk) 23:13, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Alternative views

There is one source (based on the local arhives of Corfu), that states that Lantzas' family originated from western Europe. On the other hand there is another one, that claims something different. There is a clear disagreement between the two. The reader obviously needs to understand who claims each version.Alexikoua (talk) 19:21, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

An explanation is still needed: A reconstruction presented in much latter bibliography that contradicts previous primary and secondary bibliography should be mentioned as such.Alexikoua (talk) 03:21, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

We've discussed about Xhufi and how what he writes doesn't contradict any other source in 2021. I have argued the same issues about historiography since 2021. It is September 2022 and you came back to the same issue about which a consensus version exists.--Maleschreiber (talk) 11:22, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Actually,you didn't provide any kind of explanation about this. Xhufi disagrees with a western European origin since favours an Albanian origin. You also need to follow wp:CIVIL.Alexikoua (talk) 22:12, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Xhufi is talking about ethnicity, there was no Albanian state in the 16th century and there were Albanian communities in western Europe back then. Where is the contradiction? Ahmet Q. (talk) 22:32, 6 September 2022 (UTC)