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Talk:Nicolás Maduro


National Electoral CouncilEdit

In the intro it says "electoral authority". The official name of such government body in Venezuela is the National Electoral Council. I suggest the usage of the official name.

Semi-protected edit request on 16 August 2018Edit

I don't know if you're the 63rd or 43rd president. i think you're the 43rd, i want to edit that. Milly1114! (talk) 23:46, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP (talkcontribs) 03:43, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

FIRST 15 MINUTES IS RELEVANT (talk) 09:20, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Please be more clear. What are you trying to say? Cambalachero (talk) 17:32, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Maudro was re-inaugurated before the Venezuelan Supreme CourtEdit

Please include this.[1] (talk) 23:32, 10 January 2019 (UTC)

NPOV DiscussionEdit

@Jamez42: | We clearly have a disagreement on what constitutes a neutral point of view. All of my edits had citations attached and most of them also had relevant quotes supporting the wording of the article. To avoid edit wars, let's open a discussion here about what you feel about my changes constitutes NPOV violations, keeping in mind my edits were intended to create a NPOV by providing contrasting and third-party sources and views to the article which don't exist in your version, and mine uses language specifically found within the sources. --Redratatoskr (talk) 19:21, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

@Redratatoskr: Hi. I have to admit that my decision to revert might have been rushed and was also motivated by the now closed sockpuppet investigation, not to mention the size of the edits. I agree with and appreciate most of the changes made, only with few exceptions. I should first express that I still worry about the use of weasel wording, which would be the one that is unreferenced.
  • Besides that Twitter is not the most appropriate reference, Bertucci's quote likely constitutes cherrypicking. He "accepted" the presidential elections results, but the rest of his quote explains that he heavily criticized the process: "I accept the results of the re-elected government, but under what concept did it win? I denounce the strategy implemented under bribery and manipulation with red points and the mockery with the hunger of thousands of Venezuelans in the polling stations." In other words, Bertucci basically accepted that Maduro was reelected in an unfair election. I should also mention that Henri Falcón, Maduro's main opponent, disregarded the results even before they were announced because of the abundance of irregularites. This was widely explained last year when the article was created and the election took place.
  • I also had to delete the Human Development Index reference because it is undue and outdated. In 2018, Venezuela fell 16 positions below is said Index.[2] In the future I would like to ask for caution when making these references. Susana Raffalli, a Venezuelan nutritionist and expert in the area, has also explained many times that government officials usually report outdated data in international organizations, which is the case with UNICEF, for example.[3] In other cases, the government has stopped mentioned organizations and figures that previously were the pride for the officials, which is the case of the FAO. I will quote Rafalli on what I think sums up the situation for 2018 very nicely: "The FAO stressed that the increase in hunger in Venezuela is a determining factor in the recession of the entire region. The PAHO urged to take urgent measures to face the increase of diphtheria, malaria and measles cases, and the UNDP says that we fell 16 steps in human development. End of the week."[4] --Jamez42 (talk) 21:14, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
@Jamez42: I can definitely understand not wanting the edits to go through without the sockpuppet investigation having been done first, so no hard feelings about that, and I'm glad we're able to talk this out together in a way that's mutually satisfactory and cordial. In terms of your disagreements with the weasel wording, I can understand why you feel that, for example, changing "condemnation" to "controversy" might feel unfair. One thing to keep in mind is in the section about Weasel Words it says, "views that are properly attributed to a reliable source may use similar expressions if they accurately represent the opinions of the source." So I think in this context, my edits as mentioned are justified because (at the very least) third-party sources referenced in the article mention both anti- and pro- government arguments as well as both side's supporters around the globe, with EU and US-aligned nations backing the opposition and Russia, China and leftist nations generally backing the government. That's why I believe controversy is more accurate than condemnation, since condemnation heavily implies there are no nations around the world which support the government's claims when there are, if that makes sense.
In terms of Bertucci's quote, I don't exactly read it the same way you are, I think a lot of replies show that he does in fact recognize the results as legitimate even if he denounces the bribery and underhanded tactics which is why many replies on the Tweet are angry with him for accepting the results at all -- although I want to be flexible and reasonable, so I'm okay with you removing that reference to the tweet I made in the article and the sentence I put in.
About the HDI -- I don't see any reason to off-hand accept oppositon claims about government statistics being manipulated without proof or evidence. If that were the case, why would Venezuela's HDI have fallen at all if the government were lying about their own HDI indicators? Furthermore, the UN source itself is third-party and objective, and even though it did fall, the most up-to-date report cited in the article you referenced in your reply to me ( still clearly has Venezuela in the "high human development category," and your own source also shows them in the Top 10 for Latin American countries in HDI. Plus, I think it's wrong to accept Raffalli's claim that Venezuela fell 16 spaces in the HDI (it did) but then go on to say we can't trust the report. If we can't trust the report, how could we trust that they fell 16 spaces in it? Clearly Raffalli accepts the veracity of the report, plus I think it paints a more accurate picture to mention both Venezuela's high HDI but also the misery index (itself problematic, but I'm willing to compromise and not make a fuss about the misery index if the HDI is allowed to be mentioned).
It seems we've made a lot of progress together on this issue, let me know how you feel about these points and if we come to a final consensus then we can edit the page to implement the agreed changes so that we're both content with the neutral point of view. :) --Redratatoskr (talk) 12:58, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
@Redratatoskr: I feel that we agree in most of the points, so I'll answer to the last point. I have to emphasize, just like I did in the talk page of Maduro's inauguration, that criticizing the government, or in Raffalli's case being a human rights activist, does not mean being part of a political opposition. This arguments have been presented in the Inter-American Commission of Human Rights, which has had several audiences about Venezuela, even more since the government does not allow the Commission to enter in the country since 2002, and which in turn can be watched in YouTube; I think they might have subtitles in English. Now, I didn't say that the report can't be trusted, only that it was undue and outdated, and I quoted Raffalli mentioning how this has happened with UNICEF. Despite the crisis, the FAO also published figures that the government was proud about until not long ago. When the numbers weren't so flattering and they started to reflect the crisis, government officials just stopped quoting them, which was something that was mentioned and criticized in one of the last sessions of the Comission. So why is Venezuela still in the high human development category? I have no idea, but it is alright because giving my opinion would be original research; I just think that it is something that should be looked into. My best guess is that, as I understand, the numbers from 2018 aren't reflected. There's overwhelming evidence of the humanitarian crisis that Venezuela is undergoing provided both by national NGOs and international organizations alike: hyperinflation, rampant crime and food and medicine shortages, just to mention few. Even government officials have admitted the grave situation, only that pointing to different causes and magnitude, and the social programs started by Chávez are inefficient in light of the new situation. If you wish, another source besides the misery index can be included to reflect the chaos, but I don't see how a "even though", "but" or "however" can be included. The situation is a disaster from every point of view. --Jamez42 (talk) 14:03, 18 January 2019 (UTC)
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