Talk:Masaaki Hatsumi

Lineage

I hate the tone of disrespect this might convey, but what is his lineage? Does he have a certificate from an ancient school of "ninjutsu" teachers? I've seen this art practiced here and there, and things like the bizarre belt system and curious historical claims, combined with its apparent isolation from other budo, makes me wonder. --GenkiNeko 21:00, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

He has one of the most traceble lineages in Japan, see http://www.winjutsu.com/source/lineage.html

Well not really - the main reason for his isolation in Japan is the lack of verifiable lineage or more to the point claims of lineage that can't be backed up. At the very least saying he has one of the most traceable lineages in Japan is an exaggeration.Peter Rehse 08:16, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Lineage within Japanese martial traditions is often tenuous since lines may be broken up amongst students, then later rejoined under a Soke. The Bujinkan teaches from 9 Ryuha's Densho, or transmission scrolls, which are handed down to each Soke. The densho are displayed each year when Masaaki Hatsumi teaches of Toshitsugu Takamatsu, the previous Soke, around the anniversary of his death (April 2nd). It should be noted that one of the nine schools, Gikan Ryu Koppojutsu, is disputed between Masaaki Hatsumi and Shoto Tanemura. Masaaki Hatsumi possesses an addendum in the Koto Ryo densho to include Gikan Ryu, whereas Shoto Tanemura possesses actual scrolls of the school. Stslavik 09:07, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

It would seem that what he teaches is a gendai or recently invented martial art, while I have no problem with gendai arts, I do see issue with someone creating a false history to mislead people. The inhernet improbability of someone being a soke of multiple lineages further proves this, additionally despite popular mythology granting of menkyo kaiden does not automatically transfer the status of 'soke'. Also just because someone sets up a dojo in japan does not grant them legitimacy either, there are plenty of japanese mcdojo.69.246.221.222 (talk) 23:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

There are historical sources that speaks about, for example, Togakure ryu before the Meiji period (a densho called: Koshu ryu Togakure ryu gungai jutsu and a document called: Fujibayashike yuisho sho). There are also clear links between the Toda family (where Takamatsu comes from) and the Momchi family. It is also know that Fujibayashi Nagato (who is involved in the formin of Khisu ryu and part of the same family that wrote the two most famous historical books about ninjutsu: Shoninki and Bansenshukai) worked for the Toda family. So connections can be established between The Toda family and historical Ninjutsu outside Bujinkan och Takamtsu-den. Toda family (especially Takamatsus grandfather Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu) was teachers in Kenjutsu at Kobusho in the end of Edo period (1855) and beginning of Meiji period. It is from this grandfather he claims to have learned the three schools of ninjutsu in Bujinkan. So it is: 1) Proven that togakure ryu existed before Takamatsu. 2) known that the Toda family had connections with two other well known families that had proven knowledge in ninjutsu. 3) Documented that Takamatsu had at least two relatives that was well known martial artists and teachers at Kobusho (national military academy) known for kenjutsu and shuriken skills. 4) It is proven that Takamatsus grandfather had a Dojo. 5) It's undisputed that Takamatsu trained in the earlier mention dojo. Is it beyond doubt proven that Takamatsus first teacher was soke in togakure ryu ninjutsu? No - not yet. Is it very likely - yes it is. So to claim the Masaaki Hatsumi to be a fraud and Bujinkan a japanese mcdojo is wrong even though every step of the linage is not proven beyond any doubt (that is very very rare in this kind of historical linages). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.118.69 (talk) 04:23, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

"Masaaki Hatsumi's claims to have a lineage related to the historical ninja in Japan are not supported by research independent of his own Bujinkan organization" - the link cited as reference here does not deny lineage inherently, but simply states that it is not the opinion of Diane Skoss or affiliated researchers that current Ninjutsu groups fall into the category of koryu bujutsu - which is in many ways a whole different statement... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.113.22 (talk) 06:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

What is the value of a huge list of 'senior' students?

What is the value of a huge list of 'senior' students other than providing an opportunity for self promotion and link spam? I suggest removing that whole section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.108.245.19 (talk) 19:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

Not so terrible. The founder of aikido Morihei Ueshiba has a similar list and there is even a larger list of notable Aikidoka. Other martial arts also have similar lists. I would suggest a bit of a clean-up though.Peter Rehse 08:20, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

It shouldn't be removed, but added to a list article, something like: List of Intel Xeon microprocessors, instead of being included in this article - Chronos 14:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Removing the senior student list was a terrible idea. The list provided easy access to a list of instructors and what state they were located. As a student and one who is always traveling from state to state because of my job, it was nice to know where I could find an UPDATED web page with qualified instructors. My two cents, censor the spam links, not the list of instructors.Ronin 138 13:10, 05 February 2007 (UTC)

It is usful for people to reference his top students, it seems someone is grinding some type of personal axe maybe? Please stop removing this useful section!!!!

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:SollyABC"

Alternate idea, link to Warrior Information Network and let Jack Hoban Shihan (or whomever is responsible now) do the work of updating it. The list won't be held to the same high standards as here, but you also won't have everyone posting their Sandan shidoshi-ho as a "senior student" as though on par with Nagato Shihan or Noguchi Shihan. Stslavik 09:22, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the Alternate idea by Stslavik. Wikipedia should not have a listing of 50 or 60 black belts to contact if you're interested in this art. If the organization is well run, one or two contacts should be sufficient for redirecting to a good source to learn from. Is this the yellow pages? It is also a pain to keep this many people up to date, and almost looks like a self-glorifying post more than anything. I had to argue to get ONE external link in danzan-ryu jujitsu and there are 50 to 60 black belts listed here? This is not even supposed to be an article on an organization or school. This is a biographical article about Masaaki Hatsumi. C'mon something is definitely wrong.User5802 14:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps SOME of the higher ranking individuals in the Bujinkan should be placed here, instead of in a biographical article about the man who created this system.User5802 14:49, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

An easy rule of thumb is if, like the aikidoka, they have their own article, they are notable if not remove them, then any notability argumetn can be had on individual articles not on mass. It also means the "John Smith 25th dan from sutton" doesn't just add them selves to the list, right now their all unsourced so there is not way to check. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 08:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Section Out the Article?

It might be easier to flesh out the article if it were seperated into sub headings. For instance, put the 9 ryuha under a heading "soke" or put his film and television experience under "media". Try to improve the grade of the article. Stslavik 09:37, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Where's the Ninjutsu?

There is no discussion of Ninjutsu in this entire article. People come to the Bujinkan to be a ninja! Someone in the know has got to write SOMETHING about ninjutsu in here or am I wrong?User5802 14:10, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

No Sign of the Amatsu either

I would have thought there'd be a link to Amatsu here. None yet Shtanto (talk) 15:07, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

BIG issue with Richard Van Donk information.

There is a very big dispute in the martial arts community over Richard Van Donk's title as Soke of Decuerdas Escrima. "Richard J. Van Donk 15th Dan, Soke of Decuerdas Escrima, California"

I will maintain a neutral point of view here but the following references and the fact that there is NO proof other than Van Donk's words that he is the "Soke of Decuerdas Escrima" require a deletion of that title immediately.

Arthur Gonzales, one of the leading practitioners of DeCuerdas Escrima

The dispute in the martial arts community over Van Donk being the soke of this system. How many sokes are there in the Filipino martial arts? Soke is a Japanese word.User5802 14:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Eduard Divantman

sorry but Masaaki Hatsumi's article was filled up with so many 15th Dans and closely ranked black belts, that a consensus has been reached on it being better not to include any 15th dans or similar that don't at least have another Wikipedia article. If you can show some reason this individual is notable, you may persuade more people his name should be in an article on Masaaki Hatsumi User5802 01:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, Doron Navon was his first non-Japanese student. Is that notable? source --132.69.234.73 (talk) 22:51, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Masaaki Hatsumi's lack of legitamacy

Jacob.D.Biamonte (talk) 19:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Takamatsu died in 1972. 15 years prior to this would indeed be 1957. What is the dispute? If it is rather or not Hatsumi is lineage holder of the Ryu then:

1.) it is very clear from both photographic and filmographic evidence that Hatsumi-sensei did, in fact, train with Toshitsugu Takamatsu.

2.) Anyone who has been to Hatsumi-sensei’s home can easily view several of the Menkyo that bear his name as the designee and Takamatsu’s name as the designator. Photographs of these menkyo are floating around in various publications or in private collections of people who have been astonished with the clutter in Hatsumi’s home.

clearly they did train together:

video: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ninjutsu+Soke+Toshitsugu+Takamatsu&search_type= photos: http://home.luna.nl/~risu/takamatsu.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacob.D.Biamonte (talk • contribs) 18:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

It has become quite aparant that the claims of Masaaki Hatsumi being directly related to authentic Ninja History are unproven in Japan. He has never been able to prove his claims. The Koryu <http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html> states that Masaaki Hatsumi and the Bujinkan are not historic practitioners of Ninjutsu. The Koryu states it has seen the documents in question and that there is no proof that Masaaki Hatsumi has any Ninjutsu lineage. The Iga Ninja Museum in Japan <http://iganinja.jp/en/faq/index.html> states under its FAQ section that there is only one legitimate person that has inherited authentic Ninjutsu (Jinichi Kawakami), and it's not Masaaki Hatsumi. Masaaki Hatsumi and his claims are not even mentioned and it is obvious they don't consider them relevant. Much of the confusion seems to stem from the belief that Masaaki Hatsumi's teacher, Toshitsugu Takamatsu, was recognized in Japan as having authentic Ninjutsu roots. This simply is not true. Toshitsugu Takamatsu tried to prove he was connected to Ninjutsu but failed in proving this. Evidence of this unproven lineage can be seen by the Koryu and Iga Ninja Museum's unwillingnes to validate Toshitsugu Takamatsu's claims. If Toshitsuge Takamatsu claims were never proven in Japan, how can Masaaki Hatsumi claim to be teaching authentic Ninjutsu? Why do people keep insisting that his lineage is verified? It obviously is not. I think that the Bujinkan, Genbukan, and all other schools stemming from Masaaki Hatsumi should be listed under the "unverified origins section" of the Ninjutsu schools page. There is no proof whatsoever that any of these schools have direct ties to original Ninjutsu. Keita52 (talk) 17:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

So, to sum it up; the Koryu and the Iga-Ryu Ninja Museum in Japan have both denounced Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to authentic Ninjutsu. Masaaki Hatsumi has never had his claim verified in Japan. Toshitsugu Takamatsu tried but failed to have his claim to authentic Ninjutsu verified in Japan. Wal852 (talk) 21:35, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

As stated in "Rekishi Dokuhon" (History Magazine, 08/1960) Masaaki Hatsumi said he was Ueno Takashi's student at age 24, and until age 29 only sometimes wrote letters to Toshitsugu Takamatsu who was then Ueno Takashi's teacher. <Rekishi Dokuhon (History Magazine) 08/1960> Following this in the "Bugeicyo(11/1963)" Hatsumi states he only trains with Takamatsu once every three months on weekends. <Bugeicyo 11/1963> The "Bugeicyo (11/1963)" editor states that Masaaki Hatsumi's ideas and lineage are only his ideas and have no proof to support them <Bugeicyo 11/1963> In the more recent "Shinobino Sengokushi"(Heisei 08/2004) Hatsumi states he trained with Toshitsugu Takamatsu for 15years and became master of 9systems at age 27. <Shinobino Sengokushi> 08/2004> Toshitsugu Takamatsu died in 1972. This would make the year Masaaki Hatsumi started training with Toshitsugu Takamatsu 1957(and his dates and age don't match at all). This completely contradicts Masaaki Hatsumi's statements from the "Rekishi Dokuhon 08/1960" and the "Bugeicyo 11/1963." Furthermore, in the "Bugeicyo 11/1963" Hatsumi stated he only went to see Takamatsu once every three months for training by train only on the weekend (2days, leaving Friday night and getting home by Monday morning).......this would be impossible at this time (1963) because Toshitsugu Takamatsu was a restaurant owner who lived in Nara and Masaaki Hatsumi lived in Chiba....during that time there was no train from Chiba to Nara that could cover that distance in the time-frame stated.(Hota743 (talk) 05:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)).

I haven't seen that he claims to master the 9 schools at age of 27 and I find it hard to believe as I have seen him claim to have met Takamatsu at the age of 26 in the year 1957 and trained with him on weekends until his death 1972. 1957-1931 = 26 of age. 1972-1957 = 15 years. So he would have become soke at the age of 41 in western count (42 in Asian count). I don't know when he did break with Ueno but it not hard to believe that he did train with both in the beginning (as Takamatsu did not take new pupils at the time they met). I hope you keep in mind that Hatsumi leaving Ueno was liked by few as it was not polite to leave your teacher for his teacher and it did surely caused some slander - even in the magazines you mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.118.69 (talk) 04:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

In Japan Masaaki Hatsumi has been ignored by real Japanese scholars. His claims are known to be false and no one in Japan takes his claims seriously. This is why he has a 99%foreign student base. Anyone interested in the validity of his statements should do research by contacting these establishments:

• Nagano City Board of Education (Nagano is where Togakushi (Togakure) village is located). Ask them if there is proof to Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to Ninjutsu heritage and lineage.

• Noda-City Board of Education (Masaaki Hatsumi's hometown). Ask them if there is proof to Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to Ninjutsu heritage and lineage.

• Iga-Ninja Museum (Iga Ninja Museum is the only "Public" Ninja Museum in Japan. Half the establishment is set up for tourism but the other half is actually a "Public Museum." They must be held accountable for their information. Other "so-called" Ninja museums in Japan are "Private" establishments that aren't held accountable to anyone.......such as the Togakushi (Togakure) museum that has ties to Masaaki Hatsumi). Ask the Iga-Ninja Museum if there is proof to Masaaki Hatsumi's claim to Ninjutsu heritage and lineage.

Don't be surprised if they don't recognize Masaaki Hatsumi's name. Few Japanese do. (Hota743 (talk) 05:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC))

Jacob.D.Biamonte (talk) 19:07, 5 May 2008 (UTC) This is true but 1.) there is clear documented evidence that Hatsumi is soke of several ryu passed to him by Takamatsu. None of these are the ninjutsu ryu in question. 2.) Well it is true that the ninjutsu aspects of the lineage are not verified as in koryu bujutsu, it is clear that Hatsumi is lineage holder of several non-ninja ryu passed to him by Takamatsu.

Takamatsu also passed to him several ninjutsu ryu (3 to be exact). These ryu were passed to Hatsumi as well but the lineage of these ninjutsu ryu's are in question, not weather or not he had them passed to him. These are full schools of martial arts, but their age and lineage are not known. The history of these 3 ryu are in question and we should think of a good way to explaining this on the wikipedia page. Takamatsu got these from some place otherwise he would not have wasted his time trying to get them verified. Keep in mind also that not all ryu can be verified even aiki jujutsu ryu that are regarded as having very deep history are not considered koryu but those with lineage to these non-koryu traditions are not called out as liars.

It seems that Hatsumi has blown the amount of time he spent with Takamatsu way out of proportion. That is irrelevant anyway, because Takamatsu was never known to be related to Ninjutsu. He tried but his claims were rejected. The supposed "Ninjutsu" stemming from Takamatsu and Hatsumi is based soley on "their" words. In Japan they aren't believed. Their is absolutely no evidence to support their claims.(Hpsft1 (talk) 18:02, 10 May 2008 (UTC)) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hpsft1 (talk • contribs)

Authorship / accomplishments

I notice the list of books Hatsumi Soke only includes one that he co-wrote. There are more (for example, look for either Hatsumi Masaaki or Masaaki Hatsumi on Amazon); suggest they be included for completeness. _> MonstaPro:^{Talk:Contrib.} 12:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Lack of information

I find it amusing that there is more information about Hatsumi on the discussion page than in the entire article. Is the article so short due to disputed content or is because no one has taken the time to expand it? I ask because I may be interested in doing so, but I'm not going to bother if I'm going to have to deal with riots from anti-Bujinkan groups. Livingston 14:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I think it's pretty ridiculous that despite the fact that Masaaki is a well known fraud, there isn't anything about it on the page. I'm guessing his followers aren't allowing anything bad to be said about him? This is why I hate Wikipedia sometimes. 75.152.151.66 (talk) 09:35, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Hatsumi sensei is NOT a "well known fraud". He isn't completely beyond doubt at most. His lineages are better documented than some of the "koryû", yet he is not acknowledged by every source. He IS - for example - acknowledged in the Bugei Ryûha Daijiten, though, which clearly is Japanese. Please refrain from further unsubstantial slandering. Thank you. Kennin (talk) 12:02, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

"His lineages are better documented than some of the "koryû" Like What?Hamoohaha (talk) 18:26, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Kennin, I calls em as I sees em and I don't appreciate your claims of slander. He's a fraud who operates his school like a cult. He's considered completely discredited in Japan. Bugei Ryuha Daijiten merely acknowledges him. It doesn't say he's legit. I'm not asking for the page to be replaced with a banner that says "LIAR!". I just think it's completely reasonable to 1. delete any unsourced statements that have been unsourced for quite some time. 2. Add a controversy/criticism section or at the very least make SOME mention on the page that his claims are unverified. 3. Stop making the page sound like some shrine dedicated to his greatness. The "Approach" section is nauseating to read. You say right on your page that you're interested in the Bujinkan. From reading that I can tell I can't expect a neutral point of view. Please put your like for the art aside and take a critical look at these claims and stop being so biased. 173.181.73.80 (talk) 07:45, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

This article needs edit protection. Both sides are adding in biased wording and information without citation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.243.253.116 (talk) 18:40, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Apostolic Blessing

Since the apostolic blessing is given to pretty much anyone who asks for one from the church (typically for weddings, anniversaries, etc.) and framed versions can be commonly purchased in shops around Rome, should this really be considered a special/noteworthy award? --Stvfetterly (talk) 15:26, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I think it's worth keeping since the announcement in the reference indicates that he is the first Budoka in history to be awarded an Apostolic Blessing.Bruno talk 16:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Hatsumi claims to have received this in 2001. The sheer number of Christians involved in martial arts combined with the ease of receiving an apostolic blessing (you pretty much just need to ask for one, and they're commonly purchased in stores or given to people who get married) would lead me to question that statement. Record of Hatsumi being the first martial artists to receive one is only recorded by Hatsumi's Bujinkan affiliates.--Stvfetterly (talk) 21:30, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

In light of the fact that there appear to be no reliable sources that aren't directly connected to Hatsumi's own Bujinkan organization (WP:RS) to indicate that he was in fact the 'first Budoka' in history to be awarded an Apostolic Blessing, I'm going to remove this from the awards section until one can be found.--Stvfetterly (talk) 16:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Agree about primary sources. jmcw (talk) 23:01, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

T.Hatsumi

From what I can gather from different sources there are questions about why Draeger refers to Hatsumi (who he seems to have met) in his book as "T.Hatsumi" but there does not seemt o be any other Hatsumi involved with Ninpo/Ninjutsu research but the one Dr. Hatsumi. What seems to be clear is that Draeger did not intend to question that Hatsumi was doing research on Ninpo and that modern studies in some Taijutsu, Kenjutsu, Bojutsu, etc. are _not_ some sort of "traditional ninjutsu" anymore than a modern judoka is not a Samurai. It _should_ be made clear that _there_are_no_ninja's_today_ as there are no samurai nor any medieval knights, even if some people try to figure out how some medieval weapons could be used or might be used or might have been used (all different things too). --Crio de la Paz (talk) 23:21, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

What _is_ important is that what Hatsumi is doing is not turning himself, nor others into "ninjas" anymore than somebody trying to reconstruct a medieval battle is transforming his "students" into medieval knights. Or, to make it clearer, if people want to interview a "real modern ninja" they should go interview individuals specialized in Special Ops. --Crio de la Paz (talk) 02:32, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Please provide a link that indicates that T. Hatsumi is M. Hatsumi if you want to re-add the quotation. (Just because people have similar names does not mean that they should be added to the same article. . . Joseph Smith should not be added to the Smith & Wesson article for example.)--Stvfetterly (talk) 12:57, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Everything i'm seeing online is saying that Draeger messed up and misspelled the name. Unless you know some authority on ninjutsu that goes by T. Hatsumi? I would think there wouldn't be very many authorities on ninjutsu, so it shouldn't be that hard to find him. Silverseren^C 22:06, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

You may well be right that this is a spelling mistake that was repeated three times in Draeger's book . . . but until we have some proof of that it's WP:OR and shouldn't go in the article.--Stvfetterly (talk) 14:48, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Except there's no OR in just using the whole quote as a compromise, keeping it as T. Hatsumi. Readers can get what they will out of the full quote. Leaving it truncated as it is is misrepresenting what Draeger was trying to say. Silverseren^C 01:37, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

The OR is in assuming that it has anything to do with M. Hatsumi. Crio de la Paz and I both misread it as referring to M. Hatsumi . . . it's an easy mistake to make. Until there's information about the T. Hatsumi Draeger's talking about, it would be wrong to include it in an article about M. Hatsumi.--Stvfetterly (talk) 14:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

But it's similarly wrong to include a generalized quote about ninjas in ever article related to ninjutsu. Put it in the overall general articles, sure, but putting it in every single biography and related articles has no purpose. Silverseren^C 01:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Hatsumi's organization refers to him as a "ninja master" [1]. Hatsumi himself claims that he's a ninja[2]. Draeger's statement indicates that there are no ninja anymore. I dunno how much more clearly that can be spelled out, but it sure looks relevant from where I'm sitting. Regards, --Stvfetterly (talk) 14:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Then that would very clearly be POV editing, because you would be looking for comments any notable person made against ninjas and including it here. If Draeger is not discussing Hatsumi, then his quote shouldn't be used in the article on Hatsumi. Only sources directly discussing or mentioning the subject should be included in articles on the subject. Silverseren^C 00:38, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Draeger's discussing ALL people claiming to be ninjas after the time he wrote the quote, Hatsumi's claiming to be a ninja, thus it's relevant in this article.--Stvfetterly (talk) 14:03, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

You're trying to synthesize an outcome. We don't assume who exactly sources are referring to, especially when they make broad general statement. If we gave credence to those, the biographies of SEO operatives would be crammed with generalized quotes from notable people saying bad things about SEO operatives.

No, we only deal with sources that explicitly discuss the subject. If they do not use the subject by name, then they shouldn't be included. Silverseren^C 20:09, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

Reliable source?

Need more reliable source than a news article? Explain please. Silverseren^C 23:30, 4 July 2012 (UTC)

I do not see that a "German policeman and veteran martial artist Dirk Rummel" is a reliable source. The CNN source is an interview reporting primary source information. Do you believe that a CNN "Tokyo Essentials" is a dependable Martial Art source or a Feature story#Published features and news? jmcw (talk) 08:08, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

CNN what? I was talking about the Mercurio source, which is what is currently being used to source the history section, which you were removing. As for the CNN source, interviews are generally considered fine. I mean, interviews are primary-ish (community still hasn't decided whether they're primary or secondary, so they're somewhere in the middle), but primary sources are fine, regardless. Sourcing him as being the creator of the Bujinkan isn't really a big deal, plenty of sources for that. Silverseren^C 09:53, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

So, by your logic regarding primary sources . . . if my wife indicates that I am the pope in any interview reported anywhere, you would then modify wikipedia to say that I am the pope? This is nonsensical. Hatsumi and his organization have a long history of making wild claims regarding awards/lineage/history that are not supported by fact, or are twisted to sound much more impressive than they actually are. See the discussion regarding the Apostolic blessing (which can be purchased as a trinket just about anywhere near the vatican) and then see the Bujinkan's claims about being "the first budoka in history to be awarded an Apostlic blessing by the Vatican"[3]. Primary sources are not fine when they're not reputable.--StvFetterly(Edits) 13:47, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

It's simpler than that. Who gave the award (German Knight??) and do they publish a list of those receiving it. An award of this type to a non-German would have made the news unless of course it was an honorary Ritter hood from some association. Context is everything - I don't think any German government awards knighthoods these days.Peter Rehse (talk) 14:22, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

No, the german government doesn't award knighthoods. That didn't stop people from re-inserting this into the article after it was removed yesterday though. That is the problem with using Bujinkan sources for information in an encyclopedia . . . --StvFetterly(Edits) 14:35, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

In response to your question higher up, I would word it as "His wife stated". Really, the more ridiculous the claim, the more amusing it is and yet still encyclopedic to include it. As for the knighthood thing, it appears that Frankfurt does still give out knighthoods (or did in the 90's) and they could as "official" German ones. The thing is though, they aren't actually important like British knighthoods (and that would be erroneously implying that the British ones are important). I still want to include it because it's mentioned in quite a few places and is an award. I'm actually just about to include a honorary doctorate that is mentioned everywhere but turns out to be from one of those diploma mills. I would think you'd be happy with bad awards, because it makes Hatsumi look bad, not good, by including them. I'm just trying to document everything, good and bad. Silverseren^C 21:21, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

No that means they would be official Frankfurt ones (ie. I won an event in Frankfurt Germany and therefore I have a German Gold medal.)Peter Rehse (talk) 03:46, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

It just seems misleading to list these fabrications as though they were legitimate awards. Hatsumi doesn't seem like a bad guy or even a total martial arts fraud (like Ashida Kim), but the crazy Bujinkan hyperbole (and historical claims) really need to go under a microscope before being put in an encyclopaedic article.--StvFetterly(Edits) 02:48, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Then they need to go under a microscope by the people who write news articles and scholarly publications. We only include what they say and if a reliable source is calling it a knighthood from Germany, then that's what we call it. Silverseren^C 04:34, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and the people who write news articles and scholarly publications go under our microscope to determine if they have a reputation for fact checking.

The problem with news sources (which are usually considered reliable sources) is that people under Hatsumi have spammed the universe repeating his statements. We need a scholarly Japanese historian who has published peer-reviewed material as a source - someone who has clearly checked their facts. Is there not one? Hatsumi is under the taint described by the Lenin quote: "A lie told often enough becomes the truth." jmcw (talk) 07:50, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Pretty sure there's not. Besides, why would a historian be writing scholarly stuff about events in the past 30 years? Especially martial arts in the past 30 years? I'm just about to remove the Dr. Karl Friday stuff by the way, since a blogspot blog isn't reliable for the information, especially when they seem to have taken it from some sort of email conversation in some forum message board years in the past. Silverseren^C 07:52, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, if you don't have a reliable source refuting it and there's a reliable source that's stating it in the first place, then it being a "lie" is just your own opinion and, thus, original research. Silverseren^C 07:52, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I am not doubting the text of the source - I am doubting the fact checking of the source. I do not need any reliable source to doubt the reliability of a source. jmcw (talk) 08:20, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

But do you have any reason to doubt the fact checking besides that you disagree with what the source is saying? Silverseren^C 08:42, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Black Belt magazine is an unreliable source because they report claims of the Bujinkan (like hatsumi's fictitious lineage and 34th soke silliness) despite the fact that every non-Bujinkan source available refutes those claims.--StvFetterly(Edits) 17:18, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

"Every non-Bujinkan source available refutes those claims". So untrue I don't even know where to start. First, from the sources you've been pulling up, none of the sources criticizing his claims seem to be reliable sources, besides one or two and even those are a little suspect at being too close to the subject (like Watatani). Silverseren^C 19:08, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Can you provide a single source related to the accuracy of the "34th Soke" claim that is not:

A - Affiliated with the Bujinkan or

B - Directly reporting/quoting information recieved from Bujinkan sources

? We've got articles on Takamatsu, Hatsumi, the Bujinkan, and Togakure-ryu . . . and yet nobody has yet provided a source in support of these historical claims that does not directly link back to the Bujinkan organization when examined. When a source like BB magazine reports stuff directly from the Bujinkan (like the 34th soke claim) that is in conflict with scholarly information available (the Bugei for example indicates that the Togakure-ryu makes claims to "appear older than it actually is", Dr. Friday is indicating his disbelief in the claim since some of the "oldest classical bugei schools in Japan, are currently in their 20th and 19th generations. . . How is it that the Togakure-ryu has passed through 34 generations?", and Ellis Amdur is indicating that Hatsumi is "not able to provide documentation which proved his lineage) then we need to start questioning the quality of information from that source. --StvFetterly(Edits) 17:44, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

The Bugei article was written by Watatani, a close friend, so he would also be affiliated with the subject. And Dr. Friday has no reliable source associated with his name stating as such (and no presentation of evidence to support his statements). Who is Ellis Amdur? I don't see them listed in the article.

And, yes, we know that there hasn't been anyone independent of the subject in a reliable source that has confirmed the claims. But there also hasn't been anyone independent of the subject in a reliable source that has refuted the claims with any evidence either. So there's pretty much nothing for or against that specific claim anyways. And I don't even know why we're discussing that claim at the moment anyways, since it has nothing to do with the information i'm adding to the article. Silverseren^C 21:10, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Trained on the island of Honshu

Sounds pretty exotic... but Honshu is the main Island of Japan. Would be about as exotic as saying a U.S. martial artist trained on the Island of Manhattan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 35.8.35.132 (talk) 14:34, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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External links modified (January 2018)

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Bugei Ryuha Daijiten

Until recently, the article had the following paragraph:

The 1978 edition of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten includes the full sōke lists for Masaaki Hatsumi's ryūha. It also includes the following statement regarding Togakure-ryu: "genealogy includes embellishments by referring to data and kuden about persons whose existence is based on written materials and traditions in order to appear older than it actually is."

This edit removed the controversial quote in the second sentence. I've taken a look at the url given, and it's in Japanese, so I'm unable to verify it, so I've removed the whole second sentence. That said, coverage should be given to questions about the authenticity of these claims, if they're present in reliable secondary sources. ‑‑Yodin^T 15:48, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

References