Talk:Mary Dominis

thx

thanks from Women in Red Victuallers (talk) 08:21, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Mary Dominis/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: SusunW (talk · contribs) 20:08, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Please bear with me. I am a slow and meticulous reviewer, but will give it my best shot to wrap it up quickly. SusunW (talk) 20:08, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Lede

• Y The lede needs substantial expansion. It should summarize all of the information in the article.

@Maile66: Can you help me with this? I can take a crack at it if you can't. Thanks. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:12, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Taken care of. — Maile (talk) 14:10, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done

Photos

• Y Captain John Dominis' portrait is not "by" Virginia Dominis Koch, it is owned by her. Please correct author (which is apparently unknown, or uncredited by the cited source, as well as the date, which is also unknown, but before his "loss at sea" in 1846).

 Done

• Y Link to source for Washington Place oil on paper is dead, please update link. this source confirms anonymity and dates on page 31 and was prepared by a RS.

 Done SusunW (talk) 23:20, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Early life

•  Removed I find no reference in any of the cited sources that the Jones family "were connected with the first English settlers of New England", nor that they were English. (The oral history interview of John Dominis Holt, indicates the Holts were English, but says nothing about the origins of the Jones family).

I see nothing in the sources to make the tie-in, so I removed that sentence. — Maile (talk) 13:01, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done

•  Removed The section on her siblings from the blog of Heather Wilkinson Rojo does not appear to meet WP guidelines of RS. Our direction on self-published sources says "Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications". I am unable to find any scholarly independently edited journals to which she has contributed, but possibly you are aware of some that would establish her as an expert?

 Done

•  Removed Clarice B. Taylor's article does establish that Mary was one of eight siblings and that she was the sister-in-law of Robert William Holt, who married her sister Ann. It also establishes that she was made the guardian of Holt's two daughters after Ann's death in 1832 (page iii), but unless you can confirm the other sibling information in a RS, it needs to be removed from the article.

• @SusunW: Just tell me the name of the sibling we're looking for - first and last name - and maybe I can find a RS.— Maile (talk) 21:49, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for working on this Maile66. All of the siblings listed after "her siblings included:" appear only in the blog. "Sarah Dargue Jones (1794–1875), wife of Enoch Howes Snelling; Catherine Plummer Jones (1799–1828), wife of Levi Younger; Owen Jones, Jr. (1808–1846) died on a voyage to Shanghai, China; Laura Williams Jones (1809–1887), wife of John Lee; Ann Marie Stanwood Jones (1811–1832), first wife of Robert William Holt; John Eliot Jones (1814–1814); Agnes Jones (1816–1890), wife of William N. Hart" SusunW (talk) 22:11, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

I remove it for now and included the guardianship of her Holt nieces. Re-adding may require meticulous search into obituaries for all listed parties which doesn't seem essential.

 Done Yes, Kavebear, it can always be readded, if either a source on her birth family can be found, or other research can confirm the details of her siblings.

• Y2nd paragraph should introduce her, i.e. replace "She" with Jones.

 Done

• YInsert comma after Schenectady, New York.

 Done

• Y After John Owen was born insert citation to p 11 of Kovacevic.

 Done

• "Captain Dominis was away from home for a prolonged number of times and traded in the Far East and the Oregon and California coasts" might flow better saying Captain Dominis was frequently absent from home, as he was involved in the China Trade. (I don't see reference to him trading on the Oregon or California coasts and the sentence should be cited to Kovacevic p. 8, as I see no other reference in the citations shown to his business involvement). Perhaps you can expand the information by referring to his involvement in the salmon and fur trade of the Pacific Northwest, as per Taylor p. 60, Forsyth & Slacum p 189 and Kenneth Hays p. 15

 Done

• Move citations from The Pacific Commercial Advertiser and The Hawaiian Gazette regarding their arrival on the Jones to follow April 23, 1837. (none of the other death notices mention their arrival date or how they arrived).

 Done

• Y see no reference in any of the cited sources to confirm that "Their two daughters were left in New England for their education". Please provide clarification and a citation.

Looks like this comes from Liliuokalani p. 23. Please add citation

 Done

• Yafter Vale Cemetery of Schenectady show citation to Kovacevic p. 11

It already has Kovacevic pages=3–24 cited at that point. — Maile (talk) 22:20, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

I get that, but that's a huge page range to look through for something that appears only on one page. SusunW (talk) 23:22, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

OK, changed that one. — Maile (talk) 12:19, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done

Life in Hawaii

• Provide a citation for the land upon which Washington House was built being "awarded by King Kamehameha III". (Price says that from 1846-1855, a Board of Commissioners "determined the validity of land claims presented to them and, if warranted, issued royal patents for a fee" (p 64), but if Dominis acquired the land in 1841, we have nothing that says how it worked at that time.)

? Only @KAVEBEAR: can answer this one. Perhaps an error? The Great Māhele (land division) didn't happen until 1848. I can't find anything about what happened in 1841 that could be interpreted as this.— Maile (talk) 23:38, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Like you I am confused. I read the 1840 constitution and it doesn't really clarify anything. It says the land agents reported to the tax collectors. But I can't find anything that describes what/who the land agents were, what their powers were, or who they reported to. The "Ancient history" is described here. It says that from 1839-1840 the Land Commission decided that the King should allow one-third of the lands in the kingdom to be assigned to each category: landlords, tenants, and the crown. It also says "In 1842 Government property began to set apart by itself, and a Treasury Board was appointed (Old Laws, p. 179 and 199), but the Government still continued to have an undivided and undefined claim in all land in the Kingdom till the "Mahele. The great mass of the Government lands consists of those lands surrendered and made over to the Government by the King..." It seems really unclear to me how it worked, but it appears the government and not the king awarded land. SusunW (talk) 15:21, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm scooting out on RL right now. But do you have Project Muse access? Dyke, Van; M, Jon (2008). Who Owns the Crown Lands of Hawaii?. University of Hawai'i Press. ISBN 978-0-8248-6560-3. p=339 "Royal Patent No. 3462 to John O. Dominis January 22, 1890, Book 17 of Grants; “Washington Place,” on Beretania Street, Honolulu.8" I don't know what that means, but it's a clue. — Maile (talk) 16:11, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Great source. Here's what I see...p 27, the constitution gave land ownership to the people of Hawaii. There was no mechanism for foreign land ownership and ultimately disputes over land led to the British occupation of the island in 1843. But, Dominis owned the house in 1841? How? That Royal patent is dated 50 years after they first started building a house. So confusing. SusunW (talk) 18:55, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

All land belong to the king prior to 1848 except for grants by the king to foreigners and chiefs. The Dominises may not have owned the land at all and were given permission to build upon his land same way that the American missionaries were given permission to stay and build homes by royal grace. I think it also had something to do with Charlton land cases but I don't want to dig too deep into that hole of land litigation which was never my forte. I rephrased using the same information found in the Price source.

 Done That's better, thanks! (Though it does drive me crazy that we don't really understand the background of the land ownership, I get that that is *my* drive to know and not needed for the article. It would be better placed in an article about land ownership in Hawaii. )

• Y Citation after "for the building cost" should be to Price, pp=48, 51

 Done

• Y After "William Neilson," citation to Kovacevic p. 8

 Done

• Y Provide a source for "intending to purchase Chinese-made furniture for the house which was nearing completion".

This substantiates the info.

 Done

• Y Please change American to U. S. (Americans refers to all of the peoples of the Americas) and at the end of the sentence citation should be to Kovacevic p. 8

 Done

• Y "she opened" should be replaced by "Dominis opened" (Lead sentence in each paragraph should introduce the subject before she or her begin being used.)

 Done

• Y After "John Owen Dominis." citation should be to Price p. 52

 Done

• YI was a little confused by her "taking in borders". This would have been very unusual for someone of her social position and would not have been within the proprieties of the time for men to live freely in her home. Price makes it clear that this was unusual (p. 52) and was accepted because of her reputation for hospitality. Historian Kenneth Hays, link above p 17, clarifies that she had separate apartments built on the ground floor for her household. You might want to expand the explanation of the living arrangements.

Added a Notes section to clarify this. — Maile (talk) 13:47, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done

• YDon't see the dates of Ten Eyck's residence in either of the sources given, but it is given in Hays p 17. Add citation.

? Hays or Haley? — Maile (talk) 00:28, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Hays. SusunW (talk) 14:03, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, but that won't open on my Firefox browser, and acts really strange on Chrome. I'm not willing to risk malware or viruses for this. — Maile (talk) 15:24, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

How weird. It's a government doc. I usually have trouble opening them from Mexico, but I figure that's just an anomaly. Does it work from the wayback link [1]? SusunW (talk) 15:34, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm not willing to risk it. The wayback link is still a connection to nps.gov. If @KAVEBEAR: wants to deal with this, fine. But not me. — Maile (talk) 15:39, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

I think we can mark this as taken care of, in a different way than you intended. We don't need the exact dates Ten Eyck lived there. I added another source that verifies what date he renamed the mansion, and who approved it and how. Change the wording however you like. — Maile (talk) 21:47, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done

• Y After "King Kamehameha III" ref pages to Price should be cited as 55-56, see no mention of the naming on p 52 or 62. (Proto is fine).

 Done

• Y According to Price, Dominis established the first "European-style garden" in Honolulu, which both she and later Liliʻuokalani tended. (Price, p 60)'m

 Done

• Y "On September 16, 1862, her" replace her with Dominis'.

 Done

• Y following "honored guests" move the citation from the Pacific Commercial Advertiser and add a link. I am not sure that the blog nupepa meets RS standards. It says "This is an independent blog. Please note that I am nowhere near fluent, and that these are not translations, but merely works in progress", which clearly indicates the provider is not an expert. You can confirm the rites were performed by Samuel Chenery Damon with Liliuokalani p. 22

Replace sources with Hawaiian original. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:12, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done

• Y "couple moved into Washington Place with her" replace "into" with to and "her" with Dominis and cite to Proto p. 27. According to Price p. 54, the couple did not live "with Dominis" but in a separate dwelling Hānano Bower on the grounds of the main house. But, according to Siler they initially occupied a bedroom on the first floor because Dominis kept the master suite for herself.

 Done

• "Through his new wife and connections with the king, Dominis" replace Dominis with John and provide a citation. I see nothing in the sources provided to indicate that he gained a position through his relationship with his wife nor to confirm his governorships.

I note that in Liliuokalani p. 28, she shows his status as governors of both islands and notes that he attained this through the trust Prince Lot, later Kamehameha V had in him. It is also confirmed that he held the posts, but not why, in Hays p 18, which is probably your best RS source for it, as it was written by a historian and edited by 2 historians of the National Park Service (see authorship on page 23)

Here's the official government records of what offices he held during any given period. John Owen Dominis. I don't exactly know where you would find a source to say "the crown made the appointments", and "those who married into the royal families got the jobs". They were political appointments. He married Liliuokalani in 1862, and was Governor of Oahu 1864-1886, then sporadic periods in 1887, 1888, 1889, and 1891. He was simultaneously Governor of Maui, Molokai and Lanai Sept. 9 1878 - Oct 4, 1886. — Maile (talk) 00:15, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

I get that it's an appointment by the crown, but the implication in the way it is worded is that he was awarded to the post due to his relationships and rather than his skill or qualifications. Nothing in the sources shows that to be the case. "He was appointed by the king" would be fine and it still needs a citation for the posts he held as the ones given do not confirm the information. SusunW (talk) 15:30, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Definitely association and marriage into the alii circle played a part. I think it is in the string of Allen sources but can't dig through it for now. Changed the wordings to be more neutral. KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:12, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done

Will come back to finish last section tomorrow. SusunW (talk) 23:49, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

• Y In the quote "As she felt that no one should step between her and her child, naturally I," replace "her" with "[Dominis]", and after "I" add "[Liliʻuokalani]" so that the reader is clear who the parties are.

 Done

Christmas in Hawaii

• Y Add link for Hawaiian Almanac and Annual for 1922 citing pages 58-61 [2]

 Done

• YThe text "Christmas in Hawaii ... non-canonical holiday" is not supported in Kanahele. Add citations [3], [4]

 Done

• Why no mention that the celebration in her honor at Washington House on Christmas is a tradition that has continued for over 160 years? [5] and [6], [7], [8]

 Done

Think that wraps up the initial review. Please ping me when you have addressed the issues. Feel free to discuss any of the points. SusunW (talk) 16:09, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it well written?

   A. The prose is clear and concise, and the spelling and grammar are correct:

   B. It complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:

2. Is it verifiable with no original research?

   A. It contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline:

   B. All in-line citations are from reliable sources, including those for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines:

   C. It contains no original research:

   D. It contains no copyright violations nor plagiarism:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. It addresses the main aspects of the topic:

   B. It stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style):

4. Is it neutral?

   It represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each:

5. Is it stable?

   It does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute:

6. Is it illustrated, if possible, by images?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   B. Images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   NOTE: @KAVEBEAR:, I'm going to try and help out with the issues raised on this review. Feel free to jump in if you like, but maybe I can help get this passed for you. — Maile (talk) 20:19, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your work on this Maile66, you have really whittled down the outstanding items to just a few remaining issues. I'll keep checking back. SusunW (talk) 15:47, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the review and all the work done. Sorry not near a computer until next week. Type this on my phone. Took time off amidst this chaotic time. But definitely plan on getting to these items when I get back to a reliable network. Thanks Maile for going through with most of these. KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:02, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

No worries KAVEBEAR. Stay safe. SusunW (talk) 23:30, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

@SusunW: Can you review the changes I made? KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:12, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@KAVEBEAR and Maile66: Thank you so much for your work on the article. Passing it now. SusunW (talk) 15:13, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. KAVEBEAR (talk) 15:28, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

You're very welcome KAVEBEAR. I truly don't like to do reviews, but women's articles seem to sit a long time waiting for a reviewer, so I have made a goal this year to push myself and try to do more reviews. Besides, it is yet another way to learn about fascinating women in our history. SusunW (talk) 15:31, 23 March 2020 (UTC)