Talk:Martin of Tours

Active discussions

Concatenated articlesEdit

This is really addressed to Wetman, though others may help. I'm a tyro editor, so my very first edit was to provide a image of the Legend of the Cloak. It was on a banknote, but I had gained approval from the scanner to show it. A few days later it was gone. I notice that Wetman has many many articles and edits to his credit, so I ask in the spirit of "teach me" rather than complaint - why was my edit deleted? fyi the image can be seen here:- [1] LastCardLouis - lcl@sh3.org.au - 8th May 2007

VandalismEdit

I just edited out some joker's addition about Martin of Tours going to McDonald's every day. I think this article needs to be checked over because of vandalism. 19 September 2006

Two articles merged, for cleanupEdit

As it now stands, this is two concatenated articles. Someone should go back to the Life and other primary sources and tidy it up. M.e 04:21, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

Pre-Christmas fastEdit

The German version of this page mentions that in the Middle Age Nov 11 was the last day before a 40-days fast period preceding Christmas.

Significance of one-half for Roman soldierEdit

I read somewhere that Martin giving only half of his coat to the poor was related to the fact that in Roman military, half of the cloating was paid by the state (and Martin won't give away what wasn't his). Does anybody confirm this ?

11th of November celebration aspectsEdit

Is the celebration on the 11th of november somehow related to Halowe'en? There are certain similarities:

  • (roughly) the time of year
  • lanterns (which are sometimes carved from sugar beets or turnips)
  • trick-or-treating

I'll ask this same question on Talk:Halloween as well. --Aalbert

According to other sources Martin of Tours died on November 8, but his burial was on November 11, by the way the same day that Martin Luther was baptised. November 11 has nothing to do with Halloween. Halloween is 'All Holy's E'ening' and is the evening before November 1. November 11 starts the carnival season. Therefore, in many areas in Germany's Rhineland St. Martin's Day is celebrated on November 8 instead. Perhaps this article could elaborate on this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.207.52.132 (talk) 18:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

-- Additional issue concerning 11th Nov. celebrations: — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.235.189.203 (talk) 12:38, 28 November 2011 (UTC) In the section on celebrations of St. Martin's Day, the article states "the sun shone so intensely that the frost melted away. As this evolution was extremely odd for the time of the year (early November), it is credited to God's intervention. The phenomena of a sunny break to the chilly weather on Saint Martin's Day (11 November), which curiously enough still occurs today is called "Verão de São Martinho" (Saint Martin's Summer) in honor of the cloak legend." -- surely that "curiously enough still occurs today" needs a citation? Without backup by meteorological records, it's pure superstition (this section as a whole lacks citation, but it's the notion that Nov. 11th is supernaturally sunny which strikes me as spurious; the rest I would assume is genuine folklore, although unreferenced?)

FlandersEdit

Does this make sense? Also in the east part of the Belgian province of East-Flanders and the west part of West Flanders, --13:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Severius' attitude towards soldiersEdit

Just wondering -- would it be worth it to mention Severus' attitude toward soldiers? The biography tends to downplay the fact that Martin was a soldier, which suggests that Severus shared the late antique hostility toward the army. (See Brown, Late Antiquity). The medieval hagiographers, of course, went in the opposite direction -- it might be an interesting compare and contrast. -- 9:09 CST, 20 February 2005

More suitable sourcesEdit

The use of nineteenth century material is intolerable and the influence of the 1911 Britannica is deleterious. The following works seem indispensable for a proper understanding:

  • Jacques Fontaine, "Vie de saint Martin", in Sources Chretiennes, nos.133, 134, 135, published 1967, 1968, 1969.
  • Claire Stancliffe, "St.Martin and his Hagiographer, History and Miracle" in Sulpicius Severus, Oxford, 1983.

Cult of St. MartinEdit

A separate entry is needed for the Cult of Saint Martin, which is an immense subject----Clive Sweeting.

We look forward to your thorough revamp of the article(s). --Wetman 05:53, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Duck associationEdit

I'm surprised there's no mention of the legend of the duck. He's often shown dressed as a bishop with a duck at his feet. 70.150.135.114 23:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Often? where?--Wetman 00:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

PicturesEdit

I'm fortunate enough to be IN Tours at the moment. I'll see if I can't snag some pictures of the cathedral, the basilique, and some iconography for article. CaveatLectorTalk 09:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

VandalismEdit

Someone should edit out the vandalism in hagiography part where it says the guy filled the room with ejaculations after his reincarnation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.50.248.106 (talk) 12:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Folklore sectionEdit

About half of the folklore section actually seems to just be stuff (cities, awards) that are named after him. Maybe another section called something like "Namesakes" should be created, to contain these items. --67.164.139.172 (talk) 08:31, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I think they should be deleted, e.g.
"children are sometimes given a bag full of nuts, hazelnuts, oranges and tangerines. In old days, nuts were then used by the children in their games.."
of what encyclopedic relevance is that? History2007 (talk) 09:00, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Flesh and BloodEdit

Should Flesh and Blood (film) be mentioned? A statue of Saint Martin is part of the plot. --Error (talk) 02:07, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

I think Flesh and Blood is worth mentioning. It not only uses a statue, but makes heavy use of iconography and legends throughout to comment upon religion, power, and so on... Seems only fitting to me. My only objection is that I hate "In popular culture" sections by general principle, but if that's what needs to be done I approve... :) --DigitalHoodoo (talk) 23:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)+
Done. --Error (talk) 19:11, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

External linksEdit

I hope nobody minds but I have just added a link to a section of my website with hi-resolution images of the St Martin window at Chartres. Normally I am loathe to link to my own site - but the window at Chartres is one of the most extensive early gothic depictions of the St Martin narratives and follows Sulpicius' text quite closely. It may therefore be of interest to some readers. Since the link is to a non-commercial site containing images not readily available elswhere (at least not in a legible form) I think it fits within the WP:EL guidelines. If anyone disagrees, please feel free to remove the link - I shan't be offended! StuartLondon (talk) 08:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

I think this is a wonderful resource. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:36, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

legacy among seperatist puritansEdit

Not sure if this is worthy of mention in this article, but among 17th separatist Puritans in England the example St. Martin's resistance to the imperial church, and his refusal to celebrate communion with "Ithaciuss and Idacius," were raised up as a positive model for separatism from the Church of England (see Lamont's 'Richard Baxter and the Millennium')

Should we use CCEL as a source for texts as a standard?Edit

At present the link to the life of St Martin in the Hagiography section is to a 'users' site at an educational institution. As a result it seems likely to go when that user leaves there. By contrast the whole thing is also available at CCEL.org which exists to provide access to this sort of material. The link is

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf211.ii.ii.html

Shouldn't we use it in preference? Anyone know if there is a policy on this matter? Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 23:57, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Hagiography sectionEdit

Is there a reason why Gregory of Tours' hagiography of Martin isn't mentioned in this section? --Dweller (talk) 11:55, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Patron of soldiers - or conscientious objectors?Edit

I've been pointed at http://www.catholicpeacefellowship.org/nextpage.asp?m=2185 - which describes him as a patron of conscientious objectors. I've not time to dig into this, but I thought it was worth mentioning in the hope that someone who does have time and interest to dig into the matter might do so. SamBC(talk) 18:21, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Gauls?Edit

The article says "just before a battle with the Gauls..." I wanted to wikilink this to Gauls, but they don't seem to have been militarily active at this time. Is it perhaps the Alemanni? Most of the 4th century Roman wars in this region seem to be against them. StAnselm (talk) 20:11, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. The source says in the Gauls - i.e. in the Gallic provinces, part of the Empire at the time. I have corrected the text. Richard Keatinge (talk) 20:48, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
Excellent. Thank you. StAnselm (talk) 20:51, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

Early date v late date for Martin's birthEdit

The Stancliffe book has a discussion about the conflict in the dating of the birth of Martin p. 119-133, yet the article asserts the long date without doubt. This seems inappropriate, so I've editted the section accordingly. Ender's Shadow Snr (talk) 16:57, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Infantrymen?Edit

Some specialize infantrymen I think that was someone who mixed up St. Martin with St. Maurice. St. Martin, as we Germans all know from the well-known song about his helping the beggar, was a rider - he even is by tradition called a knight, as it were.--2001:A61:217B:9801:91AB:455E:CD05:2665 (talk) 19:27, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree. I just recently retired from the US Army and have never heard of Saint Martin being connected with the Infantry. I have heard of Saint Barbara being the patron saint of Artillery. However, Saint Martin is the patron saint of the Quartermaster Corps for the United States Army. I find it interesting that this was not included or mentioned in the article. This affiliation to the Quartermaster Corps is easily verified by Googling "Quartermaster Order of Saint Martin." The only reason I know about this is due to the fact that I was inducted into the order and presented with the Saint Martin medallion. The award has a brief explanation as to why Saint Martin is the patron saint of the Quartermaster Corps and this is also connected to the story of sharing half his garment with the beggar. Ensuring soldiers have what they need is the basic duty of the Quartermaster Corps so the connection to Saint Martin is appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sgthappyg (talkcontribs) 04:06, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

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"military saint"Edit

As a technical term, a "military saint" is not just a saint who served in the military, or a saint with patronages associated with the military. It refers to those soldiers of the Roman army who were martyred during the persecution of Christians under the Roman empire. Martin is rarely described as "military saint", and then loosely or in passing[2]. In fact, his role as "military saint" appears almost entirely limited to his role in late 19th-century French militarism. Therefore, if the term is used in the article, its use needs to be duly qualified. --dab (𒁳) 07:35, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

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