Talk:List of lesbian bars

Notable?

For a list of "notable" lesbian bars, there sure are a lot of red links and non-notable entries here. Should this list only include establishments with Wikipedia entries? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:54, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Hey, AB...I'm sort of conducting this as a multi-step process. I've listed all the bars that are currently listed at Lesbian bar, where I've been discussing at that article's Talk:Lesbian bar that we should clean up the section, which is a mess. Getting a lot of pushback there from one editor. So my first step was create this list and include every bar listed there that had any kind of citation and list this article as the 'main article' on that page.

Second step I'm thinking look here at as many of the redlinked bar citations as we can to see if there's even one that supports a claim to notability, either with sigcov in RS or with some statement like "first lesbian bar in Atlanta" or whatever. If there is, leave it redlinked as plausibly notable, maybe someone will create the article. If the only source we have is both not sigcov in RS and doesn't make such a statement, trim.

Does that make sense to you? I'd very much welcome your help. Valereee (talk) 15:30, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I'd prefer the list be trimmed to only display notable establishments, meaning those with Wikipedia entries (and red links if there's clear evidence an entry should be created). ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:15, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

I could go with clear evidence a candidate should be investigated. Clear evidence one needs to be created is no different from what's required of an article; a redlink doesn't require that same standard. Valereee (talk) 16:14, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Checking redlinks

• Virus and L'Paradis; source includes sig cov of each. Plausible claim to notability as the only two remaining lesbian bars in Hong Kong. Leaving them redlinked. Valereee (talk) 15:44, 14 April 2023 (UTC

• Goldfinder: neither source is really sigcov, but the "maybe the most famous in the world" is a claim to notability, leaving it redlinked for now. Valereee (talk) 15:48, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

• Roxies: sigcov, source appears to have editorial oversight. First in Shanghai claim. Leaving it redlinked.Valereee (talk) 16:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

• Vela Gay Club: no sigcov, sources are a blog and the club itself, not finding anything better on google. Deleting. Valereee (talk) 16:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

• La Gata: RS, sigcov, plausible claim, leaving as a redlinke. Valereee (talk) 16:27, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

• Chez Moune, opened in 1936, that alone makes it likely notable. Leaving redlinked. Valereee (talk) 17:01, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

  @Valereee Considering all the hoops you've made me jump through for restaurant articles, you're comfortable leaving an entry which is "likely notable" based solely on the year of establishment? Where's the evidence of notability? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:07, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

  I'm comfortable leaving it as a redlink in another article. That doesn't mean it's been shown to be notable, just that one editor thinks it might be a promising candidate. Valereee (talk) 15:20, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

  @Another Believer, whoops, sorry, forgot to ping. Valereee (talk) 15:21, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

  Without evidence of notability, the entry should be removed, IMO. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:26, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

  Have opened in 1936 is evidence of notability. It's not enough to create an article, but it's a plausible claim. I think we're talking about two different things, here. I believe this list should include redlinks if there's at least one instance of sigcov or there's a plausible claim. Valereee (talk) 15:30, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

• New Moon, sigcov in RS, leaving as a redlink. Valereee (talk) 17:01, 14 April 2023 (UTC

• BabyFace Disco, first in the city. Claim to notability, leaving redlinked. Valereee (talk) 17:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

  Evidence of notability? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:08, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

  Plausible claim to notability is that it was the first one in the city. Valereee (talk) 15:23, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

  That's not evidence of notability. You've set quite a low bar for inclusion in this list of notable businesses, IMO. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:25, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

  Hey, totally open to discussing. Certainly I think if someone finds sigcov in non-local, non-niche publications, that's pretty strong evidence a place should be redlinked basically everywhere it's mentioned so that when the article is eventually created, those links will be in place. Valereee (talk) 15:27, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

  Right, so can you share the significant coverage to justify list inclusion? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:30, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

  We're talking at each other too fast. As I said seconds before, I believe this list should include redlinks if there's at least one instance of sigcov or there's a plausible claim. Some of these may rely on one, some on the other. Being the first in the city is a plausible claim to notability. Valereee (talk) 15:33, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

• Magnolia, "one of the greats". Leaving redlinked. Valereee (talk) 17:17, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

  Evidence of notability? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:08, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

• Babiana Club Less: very iffy. Lacking sigcov. Leaving a redlink for now simply because it's mentioned as one of the few places in the city. Valereee (talk) 17:43, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

  If there's not significant coverage, please remove from this list of notable establishments. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:10, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

• Bach Bar: Oldest in Buenos Aires. Plausible claim to notability. Leaving as a redlink. Valereee (talk) 18:02, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

  Evidence of notability? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:10, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

• Coup d'Etat: plausible claim. Leaving as a redlink. Valereee (talk) 18:27, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

  Evidence of notability? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:10, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

• Bigudi. Plausible claim, first in Istanbul. Not sigcov, source does not appear to have editorial oversight. Very iffy inclusion, but for now I'll leave it redlinked. Valereee (talk) 18:41, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

  Please remove unless there's evidence of notability. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:11, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

• Amazonas. Not in source. Not finding much on google. Deleting. Valereee (talk) 19:05, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

• Removed Katie’s Opera Bar and The Colony Club (San Francisco) because I couldn’t find much coverage. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 19:59, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

• Beulah: only seems to be listed in guides. No claim to notability found. Removed. Valereee (talk) 11:23, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

• Bond Street Bar: Iffy, but sources say it was a women's club as far back as the 30s, so likely notable. Leaving as a redlink for now. Valereee (talk) 12:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

• Chez Elle/Chez L: plausible claim. Keep as a redlink for now, this one's actually one of the more promising redlinks. Valereee (talk) 12:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

• The Key West Hotel: likely notable. Sigcov in two articles in a national mag. Leaving as a redlink. Valereee (talk) 13:34, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

• Owl and Pussycat is the original name of the Key West Hotel from a former location, probably should just be a redirect if TKWH article is created. Deleted. Valereee (talk) 13:34, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

• Pearl: Instances of national coverage that may justify an article now. Keeping redlink. Valereee (talk) 14:11, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Defintion

I think it would be helpful to define "lesbian bar" at the top of the page. Some queer bars have a lesbian nights, or a mixed crowd with a lesbian focus, and it is unclear if these would be included in this list? PigeonChickenFish (talk) 23:45, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I think the list should only include establishments which have specifically been described as "lesbian", or catering to a lesbian clientele, by reputable publications. Having dedicated events or nights is not sufficient, IMO. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:53, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Some earlier U.S. clubs in the 1930s and 1940s were often labeled as "mixed crowd" but may have had a lesbian focus (such as the Paper Doll Club in San Francisco, however the Paper Doll is historically associated with lesbian culture). I think these should be on this list, but then it complicates the definition if we are not consistently applying the same criteria? PigeonChickenFish (talk) 23:59, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Another example The Lexington Club (closed 2015) was advertised as the last remaining lesbian bar in San Francisco (and that has WP:RS citations) but then Wild Side West is added to the list also, which is still operating (in 2023) and is primarily a lesbian bar but not exclusively so. PigeonChickenFish (talk) 00:30, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Definitely agree a definition is in order. We also could add a column to designate a bar as "queer", which is apparently something new bars are opening up as. Valereee (talk) 11:47, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

But a queer bar is not a lesbian bar. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:41, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Well...according to the sources, that's actually complicated. Some lesbian bars have either implicitly or explicitly repositioned as queer. Some new bars are opening as lesbian+queer. Are you thinking a bar has to identify throughout its history as only-for-lesbians to be included here? Valereee (talk) 14:49, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

No, but there should be sources specifically describing a bar as lesbian if we're going to include them in a list of notable lesbian bars. Queer Bar caters to the queer community but that doesn't mean we should add to a list of lesbian bars. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:59, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Is there a specific term for a queer bar that leans historically lesbian? Could this page contain two distinct lists in order to distinguish these entities? PigeonChickenFish (talk) 19:43, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

As far as I know, there isn't. I'm not sure two lists would work, as many lesbian bars are evolving into lesbian+queer bars, and some new bars are opening positioning themselves as lesbian+queer. But that hasn't really developed a name yet; currently queer bar redirects to gay bar. Valereee (talk) 11:05, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Date of Origin, New Moon

Hi, PigeonChickenFish you reverted my correction to the date of origin of the New Moon Lesbian Cabaret in List of Lesbian Bars with the source quote "It all started in the 1980s", but the actual quote is "Tout commence au milieu des années 80, quand cet ancien cabaret lesbien à la déco kitch et aux sièges de velours rouge devient un lieu rock avec à sa tête Eric Débris (ex-membre du groupe punk Métal Urbain." ("It all started in the mid-1980s, when this former lesbian cabaret with kitsch decor and red velvet seats became a rock venue headed by Eric Débris (ex-member of the punk group Métal Urbain.")

So the club had previously been a Lesbian cabaret when it converted to a rock venue in the 1980s. I did end up creating a page for the club, and found a source (listed there) that says it was a lesbian cabaret in the 1960s and 70s, then converted to an alternative rock club in the 1980s. (http://copro9.free.fr/Documents/nouvelleathenes/index.html] I'm using these dates instead of the origin date of the building as a cafe/nightclub, which would have been 19th century.ABF992 (talk) 20:09, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

@ABF992: thank you for writing the new article and clarification. I appreciate it! PigeonChickenFish (talk) 02:19, 26 May 2023 (UTC)