Talk:List of Commonwealth War Graves Commission World War I memorials to the missing in Belgium and France
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Userspace discussions edit
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- The following sections were written when the article was in userspace. Carcharoth (talk) 21:54, 29 December 2009 (UTC)
Article title problems edit
Article is not as comprehensive as title implies: List of memorials to the missing of World War One. It is in fact limited in type to the land casualties, limited in geography to the Western Front, and limited to the Commonwealth casualties (not including the US casualties, or French casualties, or of non-Commonwealth countries). 06:15, 26 December 2009 (UTC) It seems a better title (for a list) is to explicitly say this is CWGC (Commonwealth War Graves Commission) memorials to the missing in Belgium and France (i.e. the Western Front). This allows precise numbers from the CWGC statistics section to be used, as these are given by country location and by type (named graves, graves of unknown soldiers, or names on a memorial). So something like "List of CWGC World War One memorials to the missing in France and Belgium" - with CWGC possibly expanded or not (e.g. List of Commonwealth War Graves Commission World War One memorials to the missing in France and Belgium). Carcharoth (talk) 20:14, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Comprehensiveness of list edit
Did a search from the CWGC public search interface for "memorial" when searching by cemetery, and got 308 results. All those listed as being in France and Belgium were examined and the World War One ones were listed here. Carcharoth (talk) 21:40, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Templates to use and map ideas edit
For CWGC details use {{cwgc cemetery}}. For geographic co-ordinates, use {{coord}}. When all co-ordinates gathered, try and get a map of the Western Front on which the location of the memorials can be placed, along with the battles mentioned. Carcharoth (talk) 00:57, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Memorial inscriptions edit
Gathering some notes here on memorial inscriptions.
- Tyne Cot (NZ section)
- Tyne Cot (Belgian gift of land - Belgian)
- Tyne Cot (Belgian gift of land - English)
- Tyne Cot (wraparound inscription close-up 1)
- Tyne Cot (wraparound inscription close-up 2)
- Tyne Cot (wraparound inscription close-up 3)
- Tyne Cot (wraparound inscription close-up 4)
- Tyne Cot (quote from speech by King George V - see The King's Pilgrimage)
- Menin Gate (internal archway inscription)
- Menin Gate (main overhead inscription - English - below lion)
- Menin Gate (main overhead inscription - English - below sarcophagus)
- Menin Gate (side panel - Pro Patria)
- Menin Gate (side panel - Pro Rege)
- Menin Gate (French inscription)
- Thiepval (Main inscription - French)
- Thiepval (descriptive inscription - English]
- Thiepval (descriptive inscription - French - partial view]
- Thiepval (battle name inscriptions 1)
- Thiepval (battle name inscriptions 2)
- Thiepval (battle name inscriptions 3)
- Thiepval (battle name inscriptions 4)
- Thiepval (edge inscriptions 1)
- Thiepval (edge inscriptions 2)
- Thiepval (edge inscriptions 3 - "The Missing ... of the Somme")
- Arras (English inscription)
- Arras (French inscription)
- Ploegsteert (internal inscription, note partial views of French at right and Flemish at left)
- Ploegsteert (battle inscription 1)
- Ploegsteert (battle inscription 2)
- Ploegsteert (battle inscription 3)
- Pozieres (entrance inscription - English)
- Pozieres (reverse entrance inscription, not legible here, probably French)
- Delville Wood
- Delville Wood
- Delville Wood
- Le Touret (inscription in English and French)
- Le Touret (battle and fountain inscriptions)
- Neuve-Chapelle (battle names and the multi-lingual "God is One, His is the Victory" inscription)
- Neuve-Chapelle (the "India" and war years inscription)
- Fromelles (V.C. Corner) (English inscription)
- Beaumont-Hamel (full memorial plaque)
- Beaumont-Hamel (dedication information plaque)
- Beaumont-Hamel (replica of the original, at Bowring Park)
- Vis-en-Artois (page includes inscription photograph)
- No picture of the Loos (Dud Corner) Memorial inscription could be found.
- 1st Australian Division Memorial (not a memorial to the missing, but a nice picture)
- Notre Dame de Lorette (not a CWGC memorial, but a nice picture)
- Notre Dame de Lorette (another nice picture of Notre Dame de Lorette)
- Memorial to the Empire dead of the Great War (not a memorial to the missing, but a nice picture)
- Portugeuse Cemetery at Neuve-Chapelle (not a memorial to the missing, but a nice picture)
- Neuville-Saint-Vaast Memorial (not a memorial to the missing, but a nice picture)
Lots more to be added. Carcharoth (talk) 22:42, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
- Of the memorials with articles, the ones left to deal with in terms of inscription pictures (which are only being used as a guide to confirm what inscriptions exist) are: Vimy, Villers-Bretonneux, Vis-en-Artois, Cambrai, Neuve-Chapelle, Soissons, La Ferté-sous-Jouarre, and Delville Wood (some pics provided above already, but not always of main inscriptions). Of the ones in the list with articles, the only one missing the main inscription from the article is the Vis-en-Artois Memorial - have completely failed to find an inscription for that one. Carcharoth (talk) 17:39, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
- Vis-en-Artois inscription now found and added. Carcharoth (talk) 00:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
CWGC register titles edit
For each memorial and cemetery, the Commonwealth War Graves Commission issued a register of the dead. The titles of these registers, recorded in library catalogues, gives a consistent description of certain details of which dead each memorial covered (battlefield timings and locations). The memorials, and links to the catalogue entries for each register, and quotes of the titles of the registers, are noted below.
Search URL: Subject area in National Library of Australia catalogue
Extended content
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Details to be added. Carcharoth (talk) 01:31, 9 February 2010 (UTC) Details now added. 19:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Of the above, the IWGC memorial register numbers and years of presumed first publication are (in order, with the ones in France and Belgium in bold):
- 1 - Chatham (1924)
- 2 - Plymouth (1924)
- 3 - Portsmouth (1924)
- 4 - Helles (1927-1929)
- 5 - Chunuk Bair (1925)
- 6 - Lone Pine (1925)
- 7 - Fromelles (1925)
- 8 - Polygon Wood (1927)
- 9 - Messines Ridge (1927)
- 10 - Beaumont-Hamel (1929)
- 11 - Longueval (1926)
- 12 - Grevillers (1929)
- 13-14 - Twelve Tree Copse and Hill 60 (1929)
- 15 - La Ferte-sous-Jouarre (1928)
- 16 - Vis-en-Artois (1928)
- 17 - Cambrai (1928)
- 18 - Soissons (1928)
- 19 - Loos (1928-1929)
- 20 - Arras (1928)
- 21 - Thiepval (1929)
- 22 - Le Touret (1928)
- 23 - Vimy (1930)
- 24-25 - Halifax, Nova Scotia and Victoria, British Columbia (1930)
- 26 - Villers-Bretonneux (1929)
- 27 - Pozieres (1928)
- 28 - Neuve-Chapelle (1930)
- 29 - Menin Gate (1927 or 1928)
- 30 - Tyne Cot (1926-1927)
- 31 - Nieuport (1927)
- 32 - Ploegsteert (1929)
- 33 - Port Tewfik (1930)
- 34 - Jerusalem (1928)
- 35 - Mikra, Salonika (1930)
- 36 - Hong Kong (1931)
- 37 - Doiran, Salonika (1929)
- 38 - Basra, Iraq (1929)
- 39 - Tower Hill, London (1928)
- 40 - Southampton (1930)
- The series appears to end here (see notes below)
There are four missing between 7 and 31, and six missing before 7. The memorial register number for Ploegsteert is missing from the NLA catalogue (now found to be register number 32), and Cite Bonjean is missing altogether (it should have a register - actually, probably not, see below). Possibly the missing numbers correspond to memorials overseas or the naval memorials at Portsmouth - in any case, it is easy to look up the missing numbers using other sources (such as Google Books). Also need to see if the Delville Wood Memorial register was included in this series (the register listed all the South African dead, not just the missing, so it may have been handled differently to these ones). The only other "missing" register not here is the Noyelles-sur-Mer one. Carcharoth (talk) 19:35, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Noyelles is here, but is a combined one with the cemetery, and seems to be no separate register for the memorial. This is likely the case for Cite Bonjean as well, as the numbers (47 listed) are too small to warrant a separate listing. Likely the listings for Cite Bonjean, Noyelles, Marfaux and Zeebrugge are listed in the registers for the cemeteries where these memorials are located. The South African missing (and known) dead will be in the registers for the other memorials (and cemeteries), so need to find out who was responsible for compiling and publishing the memorial register held at Delville Wood Memorial (and then moved to the musuem) for all the South African dead. That only leaves the question of what the memorial registers numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 13, 14, 24, 25, and 33 onwards, were for. Carcharoth (talk) 20:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Memorial Register 1 is for the "Chatham Memorial" (at Chatham Port to the missing at sea). Memorial Register 2 is the "Plymouth Memorial" (at Plymouth to the missing at sea). Memorial Register 3 is the "Portsmouth Memorial" (at Portsmouth to the missing at sea). Memorial Register 4 is for "The Helles Memorial", Gallipoli. Memorial Register 5 is for the "Chunuk Bair Memorial", Gallipoli. Memorial Register 6 is for "The Lone Pine Memorial", Gallipoli. Memorial Registers 13-14 are for the Twelve Tree Copse and Hill 60 memorials at Gallipoli (not sure which is which, or whether it was a combined double volume). Searches for registers 13, 14, 24 and 25 were drawing a blank until I stumbled on the combined entry for 13-14 and did a search for 24-25 and found Memorial Registers 24-25 for the Halifax, Nova Scotia and Victoria, British Columbia Memorials to the Canadian missing at sea. Memorial Register 33 is the "Port Tewfik Memorial" in Egypt. The series of memorial registers presumably continues onwards to some latest one published to date, but I don't know what that total number is, or whether a definitive list is online (the CWGC would have a definitive list). Carcharoth (talk) 21:03, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- For what it is worth, the NLA (National Library of Australia) catalogue records stop at register number 40 (numbers 34 to 40 added above). This is not a complete list because it omits the memorials to the missing in Italy (such as this one), and there are in total "more than 200 memorials" worldwide under CWGC care (a figure of 36 new memorials is given for post-WW2 construction), and a search for "memorial" on the CWGC website database gives 308 results. But if you consider that the smaller memorials in the larger cemeteries have their dead registered in the cemetery register, or outside the memorial register series (as for the Giavera Memorial) then the number of 40 might just be complete. But obviously what is needed is an authoritative answer to the question: "How many memorial registers were there in the series published in the 1920s and 1930s following World War I?". Note that the bulk of the IWGC's work was completed by the time of the unveiling of the Thiepval Memorial in 1932, with Vimy and Villers-Bretonneux being delayed for other reasons. This means that the memorial register publications ceasing with number 40 in about 1930 (though volume 36 was published in 1931) is about right. But again, need to find sources to confirm or correct all this. Carcharoth (talk) 21:45, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
- Memorial Register 1 is for the "Chatham Memorial" (at Chatham Port to the missing at sea). Memorial Register 2 is the "Plymouth Memorial" (at Plymouth to the missing at sea). Memorial Register 3 is the "Portsmouth Memorial" (at Portsmouth to the missing at sea). Memorial Register 4 is for "The Helles Memorial", Gallipoli. Memorial Register 5 is for the "Chunuk Bair Memorial", Gallipoli. Memorial Register 6 is for "The Lone Pine Memorial", Gallipoli. Memorial Registers 13-14 are for the Twelve Tree Copse and Hill 60 memorials at Gallipoli (not sure which is which, or whether it was a combined double volume). Searches for registers 13, 14, 24 and 25 were drawing a blank until I stumbled on the combined entry for 13-14 and did a search for 24-25 and found Memorial Registers 24-25 for the Halifax, Nova Scotia and Victoria, British Columbia Memorials to the Canadian missing at sea. Memorial Register 33 is the "Port Tewfik Memorial" in Egypt. The series of memorial registers presumably continues onwards to some latest one published to date, but I don't know what that total number is, or whether a definitive list is online (the CWGC would have a definitive list). Carcharoth (talk) 21:03, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Marseilles memorial edit
There is a memorial to the missing in Marseilles that lists some missing: see here. Details are also on page 356 of Silent Cities (published 1929) which I have a copy of, which confirms this. The ships torpedoed were the SS Arcadian and the SS Majestic. From that website:
"The Memorial to the Missing records 125 missing, which includes some Hindu soldiers who were cremated in accordance with their religion rather than buried. Some of these were victims of the SS Majestic and SS Arcadian which were torpedoed off Marseilles. Others died after the Armistice, in many cases presumably as a result of the influenza pandemic of 1919."
Intriguing and worth following up, though a long way away from the normal areas, and not a "Western Front" memorial. Carcharoth (talk) 17:22, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
Arques-la-Bataille memorial edit
Another obscure memorial, mentioned in passing by Stamp in Silent Cities (1977) is the one at Arques-la-Bataille British Cemetery: "The cemetery also contains a memorial to all men of the Corps who died in France." May not have any names inscribed on it, but those buried in the cemetery and marked by the memorial, were from (among others) the South African Native Labour Corps, the Chinese Labour Corps, the British West Indies Regiment, the Cape Auxiliary Horse Transport, and the Indian Merchant Service. That list is from the cemetery reports (56 names out of 378). The cemetery plans show the cross and memorial (the memorial is described as the 'South African Native Labour Corps Memorial Seat'), while the photo also clearly shows the cross and the memorial designed as a place to sit. The cemetery architect was J. R. Truelove, and the memorial architect was Arthur J. S. Hutton. Carcharoth (talk) 14:01, 1 March 2010 (UTC)
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