Talk:Kwai Chang Caine

intro

this pages still needs fact checking and citations. Califman831 07:38, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Caine's name

For the record, here is a table which spells out Caine's Chinese name in the major dialects.[1] I have left it out of the main article, because I think it is overkill. The above website doesn't provide Zhangzhou accent. However, I have put it here to show how I arrived at the conclusion that Caine's name is based on Zhangzhou speech. The key evidence that it is Zhangzhou, and not Xiamen is the pronunciation chhiang as opposed to chhiong. Also, the 官 (Kwai) character is usually koan ([kuan]) or koaN ([kuã]) in Xiamen speech; however, there is precedent for a phonologic shift from koan or koaN to koaiN ([kuaĩ]), especially in Zhangzhou (look up 關 here or here). -- A-cai 13:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Mandarin	Shanghai	Xiamen	Zhangzhou	Chaozhou	Hakka	Cantonese
qian2	jji3	khian5	khian5	kiang1	kien2	kin4
guan1	gueu1	koaN1	koaiN1	guan1	fon4	gun1
chang1	caang1	chhiong1	chhiang1	ciang1	tsong1	cheung1

Original research

While I find the section on Caine's name interesting, without any sources the speculations it contains clearly constitute original research, which isn't allowed in articles. I don't want to see that section deleted (because it is well written and interesting), but I don't have the knowledge to fix it.

The best source would be the original script writer, who could explain the origins of the name "Kwai Chang". Likely it was just something somebody decided sounded Chinese enough and easy for Americans to remember and pronounce. Usually a Chinese given name means something. The few Chinese I have asked say "Kwai Chang" makes no sense for an actual Chinese name. -Amatulic (talk) 21:20, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Since I wrote that section, let me attempt to sort out verifiable fact from personal speculation:

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verifiable facts:

In the third episode of season three ("The Small Beheading"), William Shatner's character presents Caine with a scroll that is written in Chinese. As the camera pans down the scroll, we see the Chinese characters for Caine's name for the first time in the series:

Chinese	English	Zhangzhou accented Amoy (POJ)	Mandarin (Pinyin)
虔	Caine	Khiân (IPA: [kʰɪɛn])	Qián (IPA: [tɕʰiɛn])
官	Kwai	Koaiⁿ (IPA: [kuaĩ])	Guān (IPA: [kuan])
昌	Chang	chhiang (IPA: [tɕʰiaŋ])	chāng (IPA: [tʂʰɑŋ])

• note: in Chinese, the surname is written first

The Zhangzhou accented Amoy pronunciation of the characters seems to most closely match the English spelling of Caine's name. In the series, Caine was supposed to have attended the Shaolin Temple in Henan province. The priests at the temple would most likely have spoken Mandarin.

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speculation based on known facts about Caine's character and Chinese and American history:

From the above, we may infer one of two possibilities:

1. The series staff member who wrote the scroll was a native Amoy speaker, and not overly concerned that viewers might pick up on such a subtle point.
2. Caine's mother was from Amoy (Zhangzhou is just west of Amoy), which was China's main port in the 19th century for exporting tea. Caine's father would have likely met and fallen in love with her there. If Caine's father had spent enough time in Amoy, it is likely that he would have been given a Chinese surname. The Chinese character for such a surname would have a pronunciation in the local dialect that matches the English surname, and thus would not necessarily be representative of a typical Chinese surname. This Chinese surname would have then become Kwai Chang's surname, which can be corroborated from a linguistic point of view, since it may be argued that 虔 is not a Chinese surname, but that its pronunciation in Amoy (IPA: [kʰɪɛn]) closely matches the English surname of Caine (IPA: [kʰein]).

In order for the second scenario to work:

1. Caine would have had to learn Mandarin (which is not mutually intelligible with Amoy).
2. Caine would have had to travel from Fujian to Henan (a distance of approx. 1100 km).

The most likely explanation could be that Caine's maternal grandfather was a Mandarin speaker living in Henan. Either Caine's mother moved to Henan to be with her grandfather after her husband died, or Caine's grandfather arranged for the boy to live with him after Caine's mother died. In the pilot episode, it was the grandfather who taught young Caine proper manners. Part of the grandfather's tutoring could have included instruction in Mandarin.

In the episode 'The Tong', Caine also communicates in Cantonese with the leader. Cantonese was the most frequently spoken Chinese dialect in the American west of the 19th century. It is entirely possible that Caine learned Cantonese so that he could communicate with his fellow Chinese.

Greetings. On the s2e6 The Spirit Helper is established that Caine's parents were murdered together by General Chung. Regarding the language the character uses, the scene in the s2e7 The Tong was played between David Carradine, Richard Loo and Carey Wong, Americans. Richard Loo was third-generation American born, and the boy was born in California. Did the DVD translate what they said, or it only subtitled "speaks Cantonese"? Did you understand what they said? On my streaming service there are no subtitles for that scene. (Still looking for Mandarin/Cantonese speakers in a South American city in lockdown. If anything happens, I'll inform) Maykiwi (talk) 23:30, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

If there is a Mandarin or Cantonese speaker out there, this is the scene in question: Kung Fu: Caine Speaks Chinese Maykiwi (talk) 23:25, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

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Here are some sources for the linguistic stuff:

• 台灣話大詞典　(Tâi-ôan-ōe tōa-sû-tián), ISBN 9573240785
• 台語-華語線頂辭典 (Tai-gi hôa-gí sòaⁿ-téng sû-tián)

Hope this helps. I do engage in speculation in this section, but all of the speculation is based on citable facts. That may not be enough to keep some of it in. If it needs to be cut, I won't be heartbroken. I wrote it for fun, not for some serious academic purpose. I agree that the only way to really know for sure would be to interview the show's creators. -- A-cai (talk) 14:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

So or so i think in todays romanizations his first name should be spelled Kwai-chang because it's one name not two. It's Sun Yat-sen, not Sun, Yat Sen. Alleingänger (talk) 02:29, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

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Yes, that helps, thanks. Unfortunately, some of what you wrote might be considered synthesis, where you draw conclusions from various sources that don't individually support that conclusion. I can tell you enjoyed writing it, and I enjoyed reading it. From an original research standpoint, however, the speculation doesn't belong in the article.

Another speculation (that I mentioned above) is that the name "Kwai Chang" may have simply been inventive without any knowledge of the Chinese language, to sound good on a TV show. The fact that four different Chinese speakers I have asked said it's meaningless for a name indicates that this may be the case. I wouldn't put that speculation in the article, however, because I have no real source to back it up. -Amatulic (talk) 20:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Because the original research (well done, I might add) has been adequately preserved on this talk page, I have removed it from the article, leaving only the verifiable information. ~Amatulić (talk) 17:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I think you might all find it interesting to note that Kwai Chang 拐杖- just means 'Cane' in Mandarin. And that Caine - is just the same pronunciation as 'Cane'

Basically his name is Cane Cane.

-Roki — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2406:3003:2077:23E:E8DE:F637:9A3F:1C24 (talk) 03:04, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

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Location of monastery?

The article intro states that the monastery where Caine was raised was in Hunan province. The "Cain's name" section states Henan. Which is correct? (The Name section remarks on the dialect likely spoken there, which might be quite different for Hunan vs. Henan.) -- Super Aardvark (talk) 08:31, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

This page history and contents.

Greetings, whoever is reading this, if anyone does.

This page seems to have technical problems. On June 15 I added some information (Development), yet the "page information" says it hasn't been edited in the last 30 days, and the history shows no changes since May 25. Is that normal? Just made a correction; I hope it will be visible.

Also, regarding the contents, it appears the article lacks information from the production point of view. I have been adding information to the Kung Fu (1972 TV series) article; whatever I find of interest that deals with the character himself, I'll put it here. I think the production and the actor's musings on Caine could prove interesting, especially in the light of how controversial the casting has come to be. However, there is an issue: canon.

I am a Trekkie. We live and die for canon. Kung Fu seems to have none, since the movies contradicted each other and the second series, even having David Carradine in the leading role, was about *another* Kwai Chang Caine, not this one. And, the new series not even mentions him. Now, generally speaking, canon results from what appears on the screen, not other things like novels or comics. In this article there are things that go directly against what appeared in the 1972 series and the 1986 movie, the only "canon" sources for this character, like what happened with the Shaolin Temple after he fleed from China. The 1986 movie is explicit about it.

So, respectfully, I will slowly delete what doesn't appear on the screen. For the sake of the other article, I have rewatched this series two times; the third one will be for the minute details and this article. There are a fan website and a script transcription blog where we can refer to what did and did not appear on the screen; also the DVDs and the streaming services to watch the episodes, plus the many clips on YouTube. Those are the sources that should decide what remains and what goes away.

So, let's have fun. And hopefully, let's make a good article. Maykiwi (talk) 22:50, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

@ Maykiwi Question: Wouldnt it be better to spell his name in todays romanizations? Kwai-chang Cain would make understandable for anyone Kwai(-)chang (or Kwaichang) is his first name, not that Chang is a middle name, what many readers will think when reading "Kwai Chang Caine". Alleingänger (talk) 02:30, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Sex

Can Shaolin priests have sex? Also, "occasionally had intimate relations with women in the series." Wasn't it one? 79.106.203.101 (talk) 15:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

"Caine frequently had romantic relationships with women and even contemplated marriage on at least two occasions."

I remember only once. Because I was mad about it. 79.106.203.36 (talk) 11:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)