Talk:Komitas/Archive 1

Archive 1

Comment

If you are forced to remove the "original" text (no, I am not an "author" of it), you may replace it with the following stub, so that we'll be able to interwiki it with the artcle in Slovenian language which will be ready soon. Meanwhile I'll search for his name written in Armenian script. I'll also try to translate it into English but I am afraid I am not good at English music terms. If you obtain a permission to include the original text, you may add some extra information from the stub.

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Soghomon Gevorkevich Soghomonyan - Komitas Vartabed, by western Armenian transliteration also Gomidas, born on September 26 1869 in Kütahya, Turkey, died on October 22 1935 in Paris, France, was an Armenian priest, composer of choir music, musicologist.

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Now I can see a temporary page. Copying my stub there....

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Since the correct Eastern Armenian transliteration is "Komitas Vardapet" and the Western is "Gomidas Vartabed", the current article title is neither here nor there. I'll move it to "Komitas Vardapet" unless there are any objections within a week. --Aramgutang 15:04, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I believe you. Actually the spelling used first appeared at Music of Armenia, I clicked the link and entered my text into it. You'll find similar confusion if you read all external links. So if you decide to move the page, please drop a note at the interwikied Slovenian article and correct all links at other articles that point here (click "What links here"). Of course you may add additional redirection (e.g. transliterations from western Armenian) titles. And thanks for the name in Armenian script. --Fpga 09:28, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Date of birth

The biography #3 (Komitas's autobiographical section) mentions September 26 while EB mentions October 8. Don't know if at least one source is simply wrong or is it calendar confusion. Don't know what kind of calendar was used in Ottoman empire where he was born, does he use Julian as he spent much uf his life in Echmiadzin (then Russian controlled part of Armenia) or does Armenian church still use it ....? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fpga (talk • contribs) 06:39, December 1, 2004 (UTC)

(The link to the biography referred to has since become dead and was removed.) In 1869 the Ottoman Empire, where Komitas was born, used the Rumi calendar, a mix between the Julian calendar (for the days and months) and the Islamic calendar (for the years). As it is, 26 September 1285 AH (Turkish: 26 Eylül 1285) in the Rumi calendar = October 8, 1869 in the Gregorian calendar. Thus, it appears likely that September 26 is the Julian/Rumi month and day. I haven't seen the EB entry, but as it is considered a reliable source, while I can't find any reliable sources for September 26, I've removed the mention of September 26.  --Lambiam 11:59, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

P.S. I've found a reliable source for September 26 – actually several, but all going back on the same scholar – so I've re-instated its mention, but added a note.  --Lambiam 13:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Conflict at Echmiadzin

Someone should write an informed/sourced section on the conflicts experienced by Komitas while working in Echmiadzin after his return from Europe. The article jumps from his collecting and arranging armenian music in armenia as an ordained priest to suddenly becoming in 1910 a civilian in Istanbul. Before relinquishing his role in Echmiadzin he had written an apology letter to the Catholicos explaining why he could not continue despite his deep love and devotion to the church. I do not know/remember more of this story but without it, the article is incomplete. Kotika98 (talk) 20:00, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

File:Statue of Komitas Vardapet, Yerevan, Armenia.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Statue of Komitas Vardapet, Yerevan, Armenia.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests February 2012 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Statue of Komitas Vardapet, Yerevan, Armenia.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 18:55, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. We have consensus that "vardapet" is unnecessary, and that this subject is the primary topic of the title "Komitas". Cúchullain ^t/c 00:17, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

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Komitas Vardapet → Komitas – WP:PRIMARYTOPIC Երևանցի ^talk 04:17, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Including "vardapet" in the title is beyond my understanding. It's like saying "Archimandrite John". This man is, by far, more famous than Komitas (Catholicos), the only other person named Komitas. --Երևանցի ^talk 04:17, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose - I don't think many people, as opposed to "reliable" sources, would call this person "Komitas". First and surname are sufficient enough, and there are other Komitas (well, one person named Komitas and other places). George Ho (talk) 23:27, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

You don't think or you know? Does it make sense to call someone ""Archimandrite Komitas"? I don't think so. This man is one of the most famous Armenians of all time, while the Catholicos is far less known. "Komitas Vardapet" is used the same way as calling some like Andranik "General Andranik". --Երևանցի ^talk 23:37, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

Let me give you some authoritative sources.

1. Historical Dictionary of Armenia by Rouben Paul Adalian (2010) - "KOMITAS (1869-1935). Composer and ethnomusicologist" [1]
2. Soviet Armenian Encyclopedia (the only Armenian encyclopedia so far) volume 5, p. 539 also - simply "Komitas" [2]
3. Encyclopædia Britannica - simply "Komitas" [3]
4. The Bibliothèque nationale de France - "Gomidas" which is the Western Armenian pronunciation [4]
5. German National Library - "Komitas" http://d-nb.info/gnd/118937650/about/html

What about sources using the whole name: Guardian, Komitas biography, World Music guide, some textbook, encyclopedia, etc. According to WP:NCP, if the surname is "fairly often used", like Oprah Winfrey, use it. How is "Vardapet" not fairly often used? George Ho (talk) 00:31, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

A newspaper, a textbook and some other sources are more preferable than established academic sources? He is not referred to by his last name. Maybe you didn't take the time to read my comment, but "Vardapet" simply means Archimandrite and it is not his last name. Do I need to repeat myself? All the sources I provided above are very well-known academic sources. For that matter, the Armenian Encyclopedia alone is enough to end this discussion. None of them has vardapet besides Komitas. Are you just gonna ignore that fact and feed me with sources like the Guardian, textbooks and some generic books? --Երևանցի ^talk 00:43, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

How is one more reliable than the other? Look, I don't think non-Armenians know or care about what "Vardapet" means, especially since WP:NC-ENGLISH encourages available English-language names. And I'm sure that Armenians who understand English don't mind using "Vardapet" as a surname, even when it means something... as if it were a big deal. George Ho (talk) 00:57, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

And your argument is? --Երևանցի ^talk 01:00, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

This man existed until 1930s. Calling him one name is... not what I would have in mind for the man from long-time ago. The fact that he was nicknamed or pen-named Komitas would not change the fact that "Vardapet" is used as a surname by sources. Checking again the sources that you added, I bet they are just databases and encyclopedia entries, and some of them use "Vardapet", although as an AKA. George Ho (talk) 01:26, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

"Calling him one name is... not what I would have in mind for the man from long-time ago" That's your argument? That's more like a personal opinion. Please see WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT for more. Thank you and have a nice day. --Երևանցի ^talk 01:41, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. The sources seem fairly split between those using just the single name and those using both, with no prejudice towards academic source (this is an encyclopedia, not an academic paper, so public usage is as important as scholarly). Per WP:NCP#Single name I think it's better to use both names as the article title. I think you're right about it being a primary topic, however, so I would probably support a move from Komitas to Komitas (disambiguation) and making Komitas be a redirect.  — Amakuru (talk) 15:54, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

  This is about WP:COMMONNAME. Nobody calls him "Komitas Vardapet". As I have stated above it does not make sense calling someone "Archimandrite Komitas", does it? --Երևանցի ^talk 15:58, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

  Changing vote to Support: sorry, I didn't realise "Vardapet" is a title, I assumed it was his surname. Per WP:HONORIFIC, and the fact that this seems to be a primary topic over other uses of Komitas, the proposed move seems good.  — Amakuru (talk) 22:36, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

• Support I don't see any reasonable argument for pretending "Vardapet" is a surname, so HONORIFIC applies. --BDD (talk) 18:06, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Badarak

The article states that the best-known version of Badarak is "his [Komitas'] favorite for four part male choir" (paraphrase). It is not clear whether this means the best-known arrangement of the Armenian Mass (Badarak) in general, or the best-known version of the Komitas arrangement or version of the Mass. If it's intended to mean in general it is certainly wrong because the arrangement of the Badarak by Magar Yegmalian is much more widely known than that of Gomidas, despite the Armenian music orthodoxy's veneration of Gomidas and his works over all other Armenian composers. The Gomidas (Komitas) Badarak would be the second most widely known. 68.41.181.40 (talk) 06:38, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Komitas/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) 20:06, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Result: Closed, as the nominator has withdrawn the review and the reviewer took this up seven days ago. Jacedc (talk) 18:13, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to withdraw this nomination. I haven't had the time to completely rewrite it and as of right now, it clearly does not meet the GA critera. --Երևանցի ^talk 05:14, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I'll happily review it, time has overtaken me. If you'd like to fail it yourself, that's fine too. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:16, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

@The Rambling Man: The nominator has withdrawn the nomination, saying it "clearly does not meet the GA criteria." After looking at the article I'd be inclined to agree with them. Jacedc (talk) 18:59, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

That's fine. I was just offering another chance to get a review. If you have decided on their behalf that they don't want a review to help them, that's fine too. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:00, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Feel free to review it, I was just clarifying my position on the close. Jacedc (talk) 19:08, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Well there's little point in me reviewing it if it's going to be entirely re-written, but my offer still stood. I hadn't seen the withdrawal comment. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:46, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Right. No problem, then. :) Jacedc (talk) 20:33, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

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