Talk:Kochi/Archive 2

Heritage buildings

Whle I don't want to be a sounding board for individual hotels, it may be worth adding some information about Fort Kochi's historical buildings that are now seeing the light of day as heritage hotels. If there is consensus we could add the following:

Le Colonial- Asia's oldest colonial house- dating back to 1506 [1]

Old Harbour Hotel- 300 year old heritage building [2]

Koder House- Historical mansion [3]

Old Courtyard [4] --Wayfaringstranger1976 (talk) 21:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Why not add them to the History of Kochi page? This page seems to be saturated with images already.--thunderboltz^(TALK) 07:19, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Sanskrit translation

Doesn't Go shree translate to something like "bovine wealth"? It's a wealth/prosperity pertaining to cows and not with cows, IMO. I'm not an expert in Sanskrit. Can someone else clarify? -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 07:32, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid there are very few wikipedians well versed in Sanskrit. I had left messages at the Sanskrit wikipedia and on WP:INB sometime back, but the replies I got were very vague. Prosperous with cows doesnt somehow sound right. (My source for the translation was this). Please go ahead and make the required changes, Sundar.-- thunderboltz^{a. k. a. Deepu Joseph |TALK}09:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I think there would be some Indian Wikipedian who has learnt Sanskrit well. If not, Dab would be able to help. In any case, since you have the Corporation of Kochi as a source, we need not change it unless we find another reliable source. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 05:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

there's no simple answer. gośrī is a nominal compound, and there can be genuine debate about what type it could be depending on context. I do suppose that the most likely answer in this case is that it is a bahuvrihi, i. e. an adjective meaning "something or someone (in this case a place) that is lustrous or prosperous with cows". (ᛎ) qɐp 06:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

That puts it to rest, I think. Thanks Dab. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 06:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not a Sanskrit scholar, but 'Go Shree' seems very inappropriate for Kochi; the river, the young town, or small sea seem more likely. 'GoShree' is to satisfy some 'Hindutvavadi' (I am also one to some extent). Kaci (harbour) is close to Kashi/Kanchi. Aupmanyav 13:27, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Does Kaci translate to harbour in any of the languages that you know ? The article originally said that it was from Malayalam but we are not very sure. Tintin (talk) 13:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Kacath theevu is an islet between Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka where the fishermen dock their boats occasionally. (I've read somewhere that Sri Lankan Tamil evolved from the Cera dialect, which is also a predecessor to Malayalam.) You can look up here. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 14:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

per [5] I do think the "go shree" thing is a Sanskritic popular etymology. It should only mentioned if prominently suggested, by no means should we suggest that this is the actual etymology of the placename... (ᛎ) qɐp 14:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

(After a fourth edit conflict and rewriting my comment)The article describes it as one of the theories put forward by historians to explain the etymology of the city. According to Sarva-vijana-kosham (a Malayalam encyclopedia), Kochi was once known as Madu bhoomi (Cow's land), which was Sanskritised to Go Shree. This name, according to the book, finds mention in the Sanskrit poem Goshree-nagara-varnam. I think the fear of a hidden Hindutva agenda in the name, is totally unfounded. Some of the islands of Kochi are referred to as Goshree islands even today.-- thunderboltz^{a. k. a. Deepu Joseph |TALK}14:55, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Kaci and a few similar words did not get any relevant hits. But thanks Sundar - a very interesting link. Tintin (talk) 14:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Souther Naval Command

A recent addition to the article, was reverted. Here are the some points, as to why the Southern Naval Command (SNC) is relevant in this article:

1. The SNC and it's associated entities, occupy a significant portion of Willingdon Island as well as Fort Cochin (INS Dronacharya).
2. SNC existed for many decades in the city.
3. It's the largest Naval Base in Southern India. The SNC is to Cochin, what The Pearl Harbor is to Honolulu.
4. A military installation,such as SNC, makes Cochin a strategically relevant city.
5. The economy of Cochin is linked to it in many ways.
6. The city depended on the Navy run airport on Willingdon island, before the Cochin International Airport was built.
7. There was no mention of the Southern Naval Command in the Cochin Article.

Vinoo202 22:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with all your points. The original mention got removed from the article during copy editing, as it didnt exaclty fit any of the sections. I've added a line on it to the "Economy" section now. Please see. More info on it can be added to the Economy of Kochi page, if required. Also, we cannot accept copyrighted content (like the para from this site that you added) on wikipedia. -- thunderboltz^{a. k. a. Deepu Joseph |TALK}05:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Geography/Climate: Teri

I've been unable to figure out the meaning of "Teri's", and the disambiguation page which was linked had nothing related so I de-linked the word Teri. The only thing I could find was something about the Tata Energy Research Institute; is this an anagaram and some reference, perhaps, to a research study on the soil? No further ideas on my part. MisfitToys 21:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but this research paper puts Teri sands to be a grade of soil formed through the oxidisation of coastal aeolian dunes during arid climate of the Last Glacial Maxima.--thunderboltz^(Deepu) 06:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Dravidian civilizations

Wiki Raja 11:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC) ^ I wonder whether kerala is dravidian!apart from malayalam language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Praka123 (talk • contribs) 09:21, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Of course Kerala is Dravidian. kotakkasut 11:16, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

IPA

I'm not sure if the stress indicated by the IPA transcription is correct - it marks the second syllable as being stressed, but I'm pretty sure that it should be the first (as with most Malayalam words). However, this distinction might be blurred due to the geminate consonant present in this word.--Kannan91 (talk) 20:11, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the IPA is still correct. No offense, but quite frankly, I think to claim that words in Malayalam tend to have the stress on the first syllable is false and incredibly sweeping. Certainly this is not true of words that have long vowels in other syllables, e. g. malayaaLam where the stress is on the longest syllable (i. e. the third syllable, not the first). I would even say that a word like oru normally has its stress on the last syllable (again, not the first!). --Kuaichik (talk) 16:10, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed moving to Kochi, Kerala

Can the Wikipedians will move the page to Kochi, Kerala. (see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements)#India) on this article. 125.212.124.164 (talk) 13:48, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I quote from the link you've mentioned: For cities that shares its name with other countries (e. g., Hyderabad) the disambiguation style preferred is Hyderabad (India). Kochi shares its name with a city in Japan. That is why it is Kochi, India and not Kochi, Kerala.--thunderboltz^(TALK) 10:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Kochi, Kerala would be the better option here because the instruction of the Wikipedia naming convention says so. Kochi is contained in Kerala, and Kerala is contained in India. The place in Japan is named Kochi, Hiroshima, not Kochi, Japan. kotakkasut 11:14, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Request for new skyline pic

The picture used above the infobox on the page is very outdated. It would be nice if someone could upload a new one.--thunderboltz^(TALK) 09:51, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

I got one - Cochin Panorama(Warning: 2MB image). I am the owner of the image - it was originally in Attributions-Share Alike Creative Commens license - but I can change that if its not suitable for use in wikipedia. Binnyva (talk) 12:23, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Tax data added in Economy page

Added information on tax generated in Kochi in the economy section, citing references, in line wiki page for Indian cities like Mumbai. This is the most highlight of an economy as it clearly describes how important an economy is to the state.

Further, wrong comments about economic stagnation were removed from this section. Economic stagnation is a clearly defined term in terms of GDP growth. No only that the claim in economy page about stagnation had no reference in support of it, actually it contradicts available info.

Pratham —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prathambhu (talk • contribs) 23:40, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

The links provided to support the tax collection cannot be used in the article :
[6] Not working: Page cannot be found
[7] This is a scanned image of a page in Malayalam. Moreover, other than the heading, details are not legible.
Try to provide valid links in English. --Samaleks (talk) 06:57, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi Samaleks

It seems that you are so interested to overtone the article. It is already mentioned in the lead, that Kochi is the commercial hub of Kerala. It is again mentioned in the starting of Economy section that Kochi is the economic capital of Kerala. Why adding the same again?

Such general euphemisms are best placed in Introductory section (as done in Mumbai page).

Economic stagnation definitely depends upon GDP. If you observe the GDP, there was no increase in the percentages till 2003. Later, the whole state economy began to show growing signs, and Kochi too. Economic stagnation doesnt means economically poor. Rich countries can also be stagnant, when their economy is not showing signs of growth for a prolonged periond.

I do not require for this lecture on what Economic stagnation is. Lets be straight: do you have any evidence supporting your claim of "stagnation" in Kochi? If you have post it, if you dont have it is up to you to tell us where you got this "information" ?

Your claim about economic stagnation is not even true about Kerala. Kerala grew at an average of 6% through out 1990s. Check out planning board data.

The tax details is not particular about the city. The page is about the Kochi city. So, its more good to enter the details in Kochi metropolitan area. Too much details are not needed in the main article. However we can mention that in the article, but definitely not in this overtoned manner. Why you have changed " unlike other South Indian cities " to " unlike other South Indian metros "? This is a page about the Kochi city; not its UA.

Let me be more precise, you claim this article is about Kochi corporation, correct ? Is that is so then CIAL, FACT, HMT, Infopark, Refinery all are situated outside Kochi city. How did they find a place in this article ?

By the way, who decided this is about Kochi city corporation ? You ?

Finally, regarding overtone, tone is something heavily dependent on viewpoint. So how does it feel if I say that it is your eagerness to keep Kochi in poor light ? Lets just not get into such subjective points.

Question I have is, why are you so eager to edit out information on Kochi which you yourself do not contest ?

Thanks Pratham —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prathambhu (talk • contribs) 13:10, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Mr.; It seems that you are loving your city too much. That is what is provocating you to blindly add colourful images to the city page. Please understand that, here in wikipedia, we follow many guidelines. First read those carefully before jumping in to making changes to the article. If you not going with consensus, and reverting too much, you can be blocked from editing wikipedia.

Let me again tell you, that the article is about the Kochi city; not the UA. Read the article fully first. Atleast read the infobox. Mayor, Deputy Mayor, Area, Population, density, etc is only for the city. Also see the website given. It is the website of the Cochin corporation.

If have gone through the article, you can see that the infopark is mentioned stating that it lies in he outskirts of the city. There is NO reference about FACT or HMT. The Eloor industrial belt is mentioned in the article, saying that it is 17 kms away from the city. The same is the case with CIAL. There are no detailed descriptions about these; just mentioning is there(after clearly stating that these are in the suburbs).

Let me again hope that you will stay away from negetive editing and contribute positively. Also, please mind your tone of language used in talk pages. Be polite; if possible. --Samaleks (talk) 15:04, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

[User: Samaleks|Samaleks]] insists on putting FALSE information about economic stagnation in Kochi, India pages. He has no reference or data to support what he claims about economic stagnation in Kochi, India. Moreover, it is known from planning board data that Kerala as a whole was growing at over 6% thorugh out 1990s. I have no choice but to escalate this. Issuing a level 2 warning to [User: Samaleks|Samaleks]] - either prove your claim by adding credible reference or desist from vandalizing Kochi, India pages. (Prathambhu (talk) 10:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC))

Edit War

I have protected the page for three days in order to give everyone a chance to step back and deescalate the edit war. My other option is to start handing out blocks. I would strongly encourage all involved parties to try and find a NPOV consensus here on the talk page. Failing that, please consider going directly to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, and trying to work it out there. Thanks. Hiberniantears (talk) 18:54, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Hope this help to solve the problem. As suggested earlier, please reach a consensus here before making changes to the FA status article. Cheers, -- Rajith Mohan ^{(Talk to me..)} 02:06, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

A particular group of people are trying to insert false statements into the Kochi, India page deliberately to show the city in poor light. As an example, there is the following false statement "Kochi experienced decades of economic stagnation from independence until 2003" inserted at two places in the article. Economic stagnation refers to a near zero GDP growth rate, of less than 2-3%. Based on GDP growth data, there has been no such observation about economic stagnation in Kochi. However Samaleks and Rajith Mohan kept on inserting this claim, even after one of them - Rajith Mohan - admitted that there is no reference proving the claim. Finally, yesterday Samaleks inserted a reference quoting a statement from a then opposition (Communist) party politician in 2004 claiming "stagnation in infrastructure", again with no data on GDP ratesn not even a claim on economic stagnation !! The above users Samaleks and Rajith Mohan seem keen on inserting false claims even after knowing it to be false !!

After being issued a level 3 warning Samaleks and Rajith Mohan have desisted for a day . Another Sathyalal has appeared, clearly deputed by the first two vandals to circumvent three-revert rule and continued editing. From the talk page of these three I could find that the three are connected and are coordinating edits on wikipage to avoid blocking under three-revert rule.

Further evidence of this being deliberate vandalism is that these three users try to remove information - with clear references - in the Economy section of Kochi, India pages regarding the tax contributed by Kochi to the state of Kerala. The three users engaged in vandalism, identically calls this "glorification" and remove this info !! While this information is easily found to be identical to that exists on wiki articles on Indian cities like Mumbai. Needless to say, the aim of the three and probably more to come is to vandalize the page by inserting false information. I could try to reason with Rajith Mohan to some extent, while Samaleks greeted me with vilifying comments and threats. Tricks to evade blocking by deputing more users like Sathyalal seems to be on.

From the experience here, I suggest to approach Wikipedia:Dispute resolution right away as I see neither consensus, nor willingness for it on the part of the above group. (Prathambhu (talk) 15:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC))

Article locked for one week

I have extended the protection on this article, since it appears that opening it back up today would not be constructive. I plead ignorance in all things Kochi, so I would like to emphasize that I am not the person who should act as an arbiter of the truth here (nor am I even empowered to do so). What I can say is this: Prathambhu, it appears that your behavior is actually the focus of the disruption here, and you are in fact the one trying to paint a rosy picture of the city. Additionally, you are the one who issued a level 3 warning to Samaleks, which you should have mentioned. You should also be aware that I locked the article yesterday rather than block you for 24 hours on a 3RR violation.

That said, please use the next week to either sort out the problems with the article in a civil manner on this talk page, or consider opening up a Request for Comment and then staying away from both the article and the RfC to allow uninvolved editors to weigh in with objective advice. Hiberniantears (talk) 15:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Hiberniantears, first of all thank you for the positive intervention. I requested your intervention because this is as a case of manifest fudging, which I thought could be detected by anyone unrelated to Kochi, India.

Those who claim "there is economic stagnation in Kochi, India" has nothing to prove the claim. On my talk page Rajith Mohan admits he has no GDP data (at least for the time being) to support the claim. But he continues to re-insert the claim !! Samaleks did an even funnier thing, he inserts a political statement from an opposition politician as proof of stagnation, while the referred item talks about "stagnation in infrastructure", and not economic stagnation !! So it was all about cooking up statement before getting facts.

So that's the first point of dispute - is there or not a GDP data proving economic stagnation in Kochi?

Second, I added tax data to economy page. This is exactly similar to wiki page on Mumbai, India. It is an important piece of information about the economy of the city. I do not see anyone contesting it as "glorification" there.

Thats the second point of dispute, why is it becomes "glorification" only on Kochi, India page, that too when provided with uncontested references including clear figures and data.

These are the two important points of dispute. As administrator, I hope you are in a position to seek the opinion of others involved in this dispute on the above points. If they have a reasonable answer to the above questions, this dispute would be resolved. But from my experience apart from Rajith Mohan, the other two did not even bother to discuss this here at the discussion page but kept reverting to the false version. (Prathambhu (talk) 14:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC))

Cease the edit war

Prathambhu, Please reach a consensus in the here(talk page) before the reverting the article further. It seems that your concern is about the economic stagnation. I am removing it from the article because of the unavailability of relevent supporting citations. In the process of reverting, you are reverting to older versions, which will destroy the edits from other users. Samaleks, Please refrain from adding the economic stagnation till you can provide a valid reference to support the claim. Hope, the edit war will come to an end now. Cheers, -- Rajith Mohan ^{(Talk to me..)} 11:36, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

• Hi Rajithmohan, I tried to reach a consensus by stoping the reverts. But, I saw that the article is blindly reverted again by Prathambhu, even though the remark about economic stagnation is removed by you. Now, sorry to say that I am restoring the remark; but with a proper reference, which state that the city needs a developement plan to recover from the economic stagnation. Moreover, I found lot and lot of links when I googled. There is no point in arguing with some people who always try to coat colourful paints to cover potholes. Those people deny the existance of any negative images in their beloved city. I remember the User:Alniko, who was blocked for doing the same with Kochi article. Prathambhu is also one among his genre, or possibly the same user again with another user name. As a senior and established editor, please block this user from fabricating the articles again. --Samaleks (talk) 16:31, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

• It is easy to check Samaleks's bluff here. This [8] is the article given by Samaleks as the so called "proof" of economic stagnation. First this does not speak of economic stagnation but a need to end "stagnation in infrastructure". Second, this is in 2004, falsifying and contradicting other references. Third and most important, this is a political statement by a politician belonging to the opposition party, nothing related to any authority, not based on any GDP data. And about the google pages - I repeated the search. Here is what I got from at least two dozen websites - (Administrator please note) "Kochi experienced decades of economic stagnation from independence until 2003, when it entered a period of economic growth". Verbatim copies or slight modification from wikipedia !! None of them have any original data on growth !! So this is precisely what the above group wanted to achieve - knowing that many people depend on wikipedia for information (or even illegal copying) they spread false information here deliberately to sketch a grim picture of the city. (Prathambhu (talk) 14:27, 5 March 2009 (UTC))

I realize this is far from a scholarly source, but this page speaks to Kochi emerging from economic stagnation (under the business sections), as does this (though a Wiki copy, I think) article, but this page also mentions the depressed economy. Granted, this a non-scholarly google search, which obviously pulls many pages drawing the same language, but it doesn't seem like an outlandish statement to indicate that Kochi had a stagnant economy for some time, before taking off in this decade. Whether stagnation is used in regards to low growth, or defined by a specific metric, I'm not certain makes this an issue worth fighting over. Kochi was poor, but now it is less poor and growing. Hiberniantears (talk) 15:11, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

My explanation

I dont understand what Prathambhu is saying. He says that there is a group who wants to sketch a poor picture of the city. Which group? As far I am concerned, the article should be neutral(WP:NPOV). I am not against any city or in favor of any city. I contributed much to the Kochi city article as well, as the Kochi UA article. The city article is now in featured class (which is considered as the best in wiki) because of our constant efforts to improve the article. This is the only city article under Kerala workgroup which became WP:FA. The user Prathambhu just wants to glorify the city he represents. This will ultimately result in over toning the article, and eventually degrading from the FA status.

Attempt to glorify the city

See how his contributions were toning up the article with claims:

• ONE: He added all the vehicle registration numbers in the city page, which was registered for the district, and not for the city.
• TWO: Claimed that Vallarpadam(a proposed port in Kochi) will emerge as India’s gateway. No where in the provided reference this claim was supported.
• THREE: He claimed that The IT SEZs coming up, has made Kochi the focal point of investments in IT infrastructure Kerala. This was un-encyclopedic claim, and an attempt to boost the city. Moreover, he added all the names of the SEZ in Kerala, including Kottayam and Thrissur (both are different districts). I couldnt understand why the SEZ details of other districts were included in the Kochi city page.
• FOUR: Again added superlative claims about Vallarpadam.
• FIVE: Added again: IT SEZ details
• SIX: Vallarpadam again became India’s gateway.
• SEVEN, EIGHT, NINE: More and More times for projecting Vallarpadam as the gateway of India.
• TEN: Again Vallarpadam, with one more citation. Even that reference doesn’t claims that Vallarpadam will become India’s gateway.
• ELEVEN: Added in Kerala article that the airport at kochi is the biggest airport in Kerala. Even though this statement is true, I could see the vested interests of the user to superlative anything related to Kochi.
• TWELVE: claimed that Kochi is the only metropolitan city in Kerala.
• THIRTEEN: Back to Kochi article. This time, it is the economic stagnation. Also added the statement that Kochi is the industrial and commercial capital of Kerala. (it is already mentioned in the lead that Kochi is the commercial hub of Kerala; and in the economy section that Kochi is the economic capital of Kerala by volume of trade.)

Economic stagnation reverts:

• ONE
• TWO: Added the details of tax generated from the district. This was removed by me because of the following reasons: 1. The article refers to Kochi city only. The information about the tax is about the Ernakulam district, and about the Kochi UA region. So, I advised to enter the details in the district and Kochi UA articles. 2. The references provided to support this were in Malayalam(this is English wiki). One was a Malayalam newspaper report and the other was a scanned image of Malayalam newspaper, which was not clear, and was not legible.

More reverts to include the above:

• THREE
• FOUR
• FIVE
• SIX
• SEVEN
• EIGHT
• NINE
• TEN
• ELEVEN: The edit summary given was: There was no economic stagnation until 2003. No reference supporting this. False information removed. The user made more changes in the cover of the above edit summary. Seems that he is having a copy of his additions, and then pasting it blindly. And all reference to support the tax collection is about the district(Ernakulam) to which Kochi belongs.

Vandalism warning

He was going with his edits, without reaching a consensus with other editors. I failed to make him understand that his claims are superlative, and he is attempting the paint the potholes of the city, which will lose the neutral nature of the article. [9]

Inorder to end the edit war, I removed the disputed economic stagnation from the article( see here: [10] ) But to my surprise, he copy-pasted his contents again; thus publishing the message that he will still go on to glorify the city. ( see here: [11] )

He then charged me([12] & [13]) and other users of vandalism. I am actively editing wikipedia since 2006. And I have constructed and promoted many articles, and even achieved in promoting some articles to the FA status. I dint yet understand what vandalism I have done! He was just pasting the template on my talk page without understanding what WP:VAN is.

Too many reverts within short span

To end with, here is the summary of his recent reverts:

1. 07:44 1 March 2009
2. 19:02, 1 March 2009
3. 19:11, 1 March 2009
4. 13:10, 2 March 2009
5. 01:37, 3 March 2009
6. 10:03, 3 March 2009
7. 12:50, 3 March 2009
8. 16:30, 3 March 2009

If the construction should go on smoothly, User Prahambhu should agree to go with harmony, agreeing with other views, and understanding wiki policies; and if he is not willing, he should quit himself from editing the articles. I lose hope to educate this user.

Cheers, -- Rajith Mohan ^{(Talk to me..)} 11:53, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• Dear Hiberniantears, I am happy that you have pulled up by searching on google

for "Kochi"+"stagnation". And exactly as I pointed out above all of them are plagiarized versions of wikipedia - one of them with minor variations. At least in one case you noticed explicit plagiarism - just peruse the other two also, you see they are almost verbatim copy.

I have copied and pasted lines from the three links you posted to make it easy.

"In recent years the city has rejuvenated from its economic stagnation and has witnessed heavy investment, thus making it one of the fastest-growing second-tier metro cities in India". [14]

"Kochi experienced decades of economic stagnation from independence until 2003, when it entered a period of economic growth". [15]

The first two are verbatim copy from wikipedia Kochi, India

This one does a minor language variation from wiki but the same. And notice whenever change is done level of language (English) is pathetic.

"For decades the economy of the city was in shambles and therefore was in a sorry state. This economic stagnation contiued till 2003, when the newly formed gobal economy took shape". [16]

It is a habit to freely copy from wiki and make minor changes without acknowledging. And wiki for that unfortunately is editable and vulnerable to manipulators like the one we see here !! I am sure Kochi, India pages is not the only place wiki will face this problem. But if only we could make a beginning against such vandalism.

That is the bluff by the organized manipulators here like Rajith Mohan, Samaleks and possibly Sathyalal. So is it the chicken or the egg that came first ? These guys quote websites which basically copied their own created lies about "stagnation".

Thank you again for taking the pains for verifying this. I am sure wiki stands to gain greater heights bringing this scandal to light. I am all for independent mediation by wiki administrators. Actually I feel my job half done as already an administrator (you) have at least seen this manipulation. I hope an expert wiki team will be here to examine this here and put an end to such scandals. (Prathambhu (talk) 13:26, 6 March 2009 (UTC))

• Rajith Mohan, does all that Mahabharat you spilled out here contain anything

new ? My contributions are plain there, for everyone to see. Even you admit that every bit of info I stand by is CORRECT and supported by credible references we both agree. And whenever I do not have 8reference to support I withdrew my contribution. In contrast, your (and Samaleks) claim of "stagnation" is FALSE for which, you admit, you don't have any reference!! Still you insert it back !!

Further, see the page you just claimed you eliminated unproved claims on economic stagnation - [17] The economy section has the same full blown false statement repeated. It is not as though you did not notice it, you wanted to keep the false info as much as possible until administrators intervened.

Every correct information I add is glorification - is that not your point ? I have just briefed above that every elimination of info you and Samaleks did without consensus was even worse - it is plain FALSE. It is over 10 days we started discussing. Till this day have you got GDP data or any credible report or data of economic stagnation in Kochi? Because it does not exist. You know it and Samaleks know it, it just that you just want to carry as long as possible by conning administrators so that more and more webpages will copy and pollute the web with wrong information from wikipedia Kochi, India article.

I did not expect much to happen in discussion and I was proved correct on that. It is gratifying to see that wiki administrators have started looking into the problem. I am only hoping for an independent dispute resolution. (Prathambhu (talk) 13:05, 6 March 2009 (UTC))

• While I would like to reserve my comments on the current status of the economy in Kochi, let me point out a couple of points which, among others, lead me to believe that Prathambu is editing the FA class article with vested interests.

1. Tax revenue is not the correct measure of the economic contribution of a region within an economy, it is the Gross Domestic Product (GDP). In this sense, Trivandrum accounts for 10.9% of the State GDP while Ernakulam (Kochi) accounts for 14%, a marginal difference of only 3%. Trivandrum has the best growth rate of 12.6% to Kochi's 12.1%. This is as per the most authoritative source available, the Government's Economic Review for 2007-08. The tax figures are inflated in Kochi's case since many PSUs and private agencies have regional offices there where the taxes for sales across Kerala are reported. For example, tax revenue for sales of fuel across Kerala are reported at the regional office of IOCL/BPCL/HPCL located at Cochin. This anomaly will soon be resolved when the State completes roll-out of the Value Added Tax (VAT) system in the coming two years.

2. As for the IT Parks, a quick reference to the article on Technopark reveals that over 70% of the IT exports from Kerala come from Trivandrum. I am sure that precludes the claim that Kochi is the focus of IT investments in Kerala.

I believe that this user is only one of a myriad set trying to create unrealistic impressions about the city. Many of this ilk have earlier been banned from Wikipedia for trying to pursue this agenda despite repeated warnings.

I fear that persisting with such tactics will do only harm to existing articles. This one is a FA class article, whose status could be seriously damaged by such continuing acts of vandalism. To avoid such a turn of events, I hope all concerned will cease such activity. Thanks in advance! - Ajaypp (talk) 19:05, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• After looking this over, Prathambhu is clearly editing in a tendentious manner that creates a strong POV in favor of Kochi. Since we are not here to create travel brochures, this is inappropriate editing. However, this does not mean the article has to reflect poorly on the city, but rather that a complete picture of the city should be created. In the recent past, Kochi was poor, and now it has high growth around 12% (which, in and of itself tells you the city was recently in a low state of development). That said, there has been generally bad behavior all around concerning this edit war. Thusly: Prathambhu, I ask that you cease your efforts to propagandize the Kochi article. Please feel free to continue editing this and any other article, but be aware that continuing this dispute will result in a block. For the other editors involved in this dispute, when the article is opened back up, I will enforce 3RR with short duration blocks, and additional page protection. As for hashing things out on this talk page, I would ask that editors begin crafting concise, clear statements regarding whatever it is they are arguing for. Prathambhu, I single you out in particular as your posts have been borderline incomprehensible. Hiberniantears (talk) 19:32, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• Hiberniantears, I thank you and fully agree on your stand that the correct picture of the city must be presented and on the measures you have taken to ensure this in this wiki page. I am sure there are enough experts in wiki to give a word on the what it means to be economic stagnation in a city. I agree with your feeling that it is difficult for you to understand

the issue here. I look forward to an expert intervention through dispute resolution mechanism here. As wiki policy on disputes says expert intervention through dispute resolution should be proper way to determine the truth and not through show of numerical strength. While it is easy for vandals to organize and aid each other, truth prevails finally irrespective of such acts. I would request you to help the same by moving dispute resolution on this. (Prathambhu (talk) 23:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC))

• As per this wiki page on economic stagnation, a GDP growth rate of less than 2-3% is called economic stagnation.

By this standards, I am fully correct in saying that there was no "decades of economic stagnation until 2003 in Kochi". Those who claim so must provide GDP growth data, if available. What is available is a growth data for the state of Kerala, and that says the state's GDP was growing at 6% through out 1990s. If Kochi were growing at a smaller rate than this than that is a matter of grave study for state planning board, because Kochi the most industrialized area of the state. But such a thing was never heard of EVER. That is why the "stagnation" propagandists were not able to find any reference so far showing Kochi was facing a slow growth until 2003.

The official data Government's Economic Review for 2007-08 show that per capita GDP at Kochi (Ernakulam) is 40% more than the state average. If all of this growth happened after 2003 as wrongly claimed by wikipedia Kochi, India page then it would be a record in the history of mankind !! Wiki dispute resolution hopefully can relieve Kochi of such vandal generated "world records" and put back the proper reasonable, intelligible records that Kochi truly holds. (Prathambhu (talk) 23:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC))

• Regarding tax data, if anyone have any dispute on the information I posted, they are welcome to provide clear references to prove their claim. The vernacular news reference I posted [18] says that district administration

is collecting an estimated Rs.4500 crore in as commercial tax in 2006. This is the tax levied from the commercial establishments in the district and not from public sector oil marketing companies. The reason is clear from the same news [19]. It says Kanayannur Taluk, where all the oil companies are located, contributes 30% of the taxes in 2006. That comes to Rs.1350 crore.

Here is annual consumption of petroleum products (Petrol, Diesel, LPG) in Kerala [20]. At the price levels of 2006, with the 26-28% state tax on petroleum products this translates into a about Rs.2400 crore as the contribution of oil sales tax. Now that is almost double the tax collected from Kanayannur taluk, which means oil sales tax is not included in the Rs.4500 crore mentioned in the first news.

Oil sales tax does count as contribution from Kochi to state exchequer. That is because all these oil marketing companies are all located at Kochi to take the supply from the Kochi Refinery located at Kochi. (It continues through even after its merger with BPCL in 2006 in lieu for similar arrangements with other oil marketing companies IOC, HPCL, etc. in many other states where the latter run the refinery.)

It is true of any industry - for example, Hindustan Latex manufactures health products (condoms) in its Trivandrum plant. The products are sold all over Kerala and India by many other marketing companies, but eventually a good part of the tax is paid at Trivandrum. And that, genuinely, is a contribution from Trivandrum.

Total commercial tax revenue of the state of Kerala is more than Rs.10000 crore. It crossed the Rs.10000 crore mark this year for the first time. [21] Thus the above reference clearly proves that in 2006, Kochi contributed Rs.6900 crore (4500+2400) in commercial taxes making at least 70% of state's commercial tax revenue from the state. (Prathambhu (talk) 23:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC))

• The information I added about IT infrastructure is as follows - 8 of the 10 private IT SEZs sanctioned in Kerala are coming up in Kochi. That makes Kochi the focal point of investment in

IT infrastructure. You can verify the wording by going to the page. This does not mention about the present IT exports. Most of the upcoming major private investments in IT infrastructure are in Kochi. None of the above private IT SEZs are in Trivandrum, clearly showing that investment in IT infrastructure is nearly nil there and a case for comparison does not arise. It also reflects in the declining share of Trivandrum in IT exports. Until 2004 it was more than 95% of state's exports, but in 2008 it is less than 69% according to the data given by Chief minister in Kerala assembly [22], [23], [24]. (Prathambhu (talk) 23:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC))

• A further comment on GDP data. Trivandrum district's contribution to GDP is highest in tertiary

sector through the item "Public administration" Trivandrum. Trivandrum district is the capital of Kerala and more than 60% of all employment there is through government service. This is not a wealth generating economic activity, unlike other service sectors, as it adds nothing absolute to the economy. So the Rs.7683.21 crore of tertiary sector GDP in this data Government's Economic Review for 2007-08 has most of it coming from government employees remunerations. The contribution to the GDP from government employee salaries is more than 75%, but even if I deduct a moderate 60%(Rs.4600 crore), what is left is just Rs.9900 crore. That ranks 6th among districts of Kerala alongside Kollam district. If one counts the cascading effects of this, the GDP of Trivandrum would rank among the lowest in state. This is well illustrated by the fact that business goes down in Trivandrum district during government employee strikes [25] when government employees reduce spending. Studies by CDS, Trivandrum [26] show that Trivandrum districts ranks among the most backward in Kerala in terms of employment generation, despite the large scale government sector employment, while Kochi is performs best on this criterion in Kerala. Moreover the data Government's Economic Review for 2007-08 also shows that per capita GDP at Kochi (Ernakulam) is 40% more than the state average. If all of this growth happened after 2003 as wrongly claimed by wikipedia Kochi, India page then it is a record in the history of mankind !! Wiki dispute resolution can relieve Kochi of such vandal generated "world records" and put back the proper reasonable, intelligible records that Kochi truly holds. (Prathambhu (talk) 23:27, 7 March 2009 (UTC))

Final word on "economic stagnation" dispute

Dear Hiberniantears,

State planning board (Official website), under Govt. of Kerala is the authority to provide economic data for the state of Kerala, India. Already the user Ajaypp has brought this link to make a few points in this discussion. I hope everyone here will agree that GDP data released by State planning board - usually in annual economic review - is the final word on the issue of GDP growth in Kochi, India ( data is usually provided for district of Ernakulam ) and settle the dispute whether there was "economic stagnation in Kochi for decades after independence until 2003".

So we must try to get the relevant data from state planning board and keep the best known information on wikipedia Kochi, India article. (Prathambhu (talk) 07:25, 8 March 2009 (UTC))

This was what we were telling from beginning.. This is an article about Kochi city. There are different articles about the district Ernakulam, which holds Kochi. There is also another article about the urban agglomeration of Kochi. I wish, if you could stop arguing endlessly to promote your city.--Samaleks (talk) 15:15, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, the reference of economic stagnation was once removed by Rajithmohan. But you again pasted your version, along with the tax data for the district. I really have no idea how to deal with users who have specific intentions. --Samaleks (talk) 15:17, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

In the print data, I have seen from annual economic review of State planning board up till 2003 of Ernakulam district, I could see Ernakulam district growing at more than 8% a year through out 1990s. You are claiming that Kochi city was going against the tendency in its suburbs and was facing an economic stagnation from 1947 till 2003 !! This sounds woodoo stuff, to put it mildly. If you are still sure that there was economic stagnation in Kochi city, you must get the GDP growth data for Kochi city from the State planning board (Official website) to substantiate your claim of economic stagnation instead of arguing endlessly. (Prathambhu (talk) 13:56, 9 March 2009 (UTC))

Data on GDP growth

This section will hopefully help to resolve the dispute once and for all, whether there was economic stagnation in Kochi, India.

I present the data from State Planning Board, Govt. of Kerala. I will keep updating the data for all the years as they are available with me. The surmised Economic stagnation until 2003 seems FALSE as per data 2002-2003 year.

GDP for the year 2002-2003 for the district of Ernakulam[planning/er/chapter3.pdf| Economic Review 2003]. Rs. 10428.35 crore

GDP for the year 2002-2003 for the district of Ernakulam. Rs. 9045.64 crore

GDP growth (absolute) - 15.2 % GDP growth corrected for inflation - 6.8%

The data also says Ernakulam also has the highest GDP as well as the highest per capita GDP in the state of Kerala. Economic stagnation is a stage where the growth hovers around a low 2-3%. For the district of Ernakulam it is more than double that figure which is considered as a solid economic growth.

More data to be added soon. Thanks. (Prathambhu (talk) 10:33, 12 March 2009 (UTC))

All these data is for the district of Ernakulam; and not specific for the Kochi city. However, the reference to economic stagnation has been removed from the lead. Cheers, -- Rajith Mohan ^{(Talk to me..)} 12:14, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

• Same wrong statement on economic stagnation is removed from economy section too.

Hope this is the consensus we reach. Regarding the point of district data, I hope your point is not that Kochi municipal corporation or Kochi urban agglomoration witnessed economic stagnation while Ernakulam district was growing at 7% a year. If by any chance it is, please provide data as it is totally against common sense. (Prathambhu (talk) 14:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC))

Precise statement in Economy section

The statement "unlike South Indian cities, Kochi has been slow to industrialise" has been corrected to "unlike South Indian metropolitan cities, Kochi has been slow to industrialise".

Several South Indian cities are much slower in industrialization. For instance, other cities in Kerala are also "South Indian" cities - which as the GDP data shows were always slower than Kochi to industrialize Economic Review 2002-2003, Economic Review 2007-08. The South Indian cities ahead of Kochi in terms of industrialization are mainly Bangalore, Chennai, Coimbatore and possibly Hyderabad. These are all metropolitan cities.

Adding this in, possibly an error that went unnoticed. (Prathambhu (talk) 23:30, 14 March 2009 (UTC))

There is only one metro in South India, which is Chennai. The other cities are not considered metros. The South Indian cities ahead of Kochi in industrialization is Chennai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Coimbatore, Vizag, and Madurai. Among this, the only city in the metro status is Chennai. --Samaleks (talk) 14:20, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

FAR needed

Urgent cleanup is needed here, (see Wikipedia:Featured articles/Cleanup listing), or this article should be submitted to WP:FAR. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:24, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Population density.

Kochi is the corporation in kerala with highest population density. It is an encyclopedic fact and it is added to the article.Hope this sentence will not hurt anybody. regards..--Shrieekk (talk) 19:26, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

This is much better tone. Now let us talk here and sort it out before you add or remove any thing in the article. It is already added in the demographics section. But, why you removed the suicidal rates ? --Dewatchdog (talk) 03:08, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Please read the article first. The figures are given for whole state. not for kochi alone.This suicide rate should be given in the article kerala not kochi. You mean nobody should edit and add facts except you? --Shrieekk (talk) 09:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

City or Corporation

The sentence "kochi is the second largest city" should be changed to "city corporation" or "municipal corporation"as the word "city" can be applied to a corporation, a metro or to an urban agglomeration and make confusion. In Idukki district, even small junctions are called a "city" by locals. So please change the word to city corporation.--Shrieekk (talk) 09:30, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• Shrieekk, In India, the city corporations are formed after defining the city limits; not viceversa. It is natural that after some years, urbanisation gets extended to the adjoining areas of the city. These areas are termed as UA(Urban Agglomeration) or OG (OutGrowth) as per the government. Thus the city naturally refers to the corporation and the extended urban areas is termed as OG. Hence no need to specify that it is the second largest city corporation. Infact, it is the second largest city itself. Check the link: [27] Also, see the government of India census site for detailed population across city and OG. Even if you consider the population of the corporation area(595575) + immediate adjoining OG area, the total population is 688604, which makes it the second largest in Kerala.

See the table below for the city population and OG area:

Sl. Number	Area	Population
1	Kochi City	595575
2	Kedamangalam (OG)	21620
3	Alangad (OG)	40596
4	Cheriyakadavu (OG)	8327
5	Kakkanad (OG)	22486
7	City pop+OG	688604

Further more, we have seperate pages for Kochi city, Kochi UA and Corporation of Cochin. Hope this clarifies. Thank you, --Samaleks (talk) 06:21, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Dear samaleks, The best word to specify here is "city corporation" itself. Because if the word "city" is used for an Urban Agglomeration, then kochi UA is not second. The word "city" is confusing. By adding the word "corporation", we do not hide any facts or put wrong facts. Then I dont understand why some editors are removing the word "corporation"..!! Also I dont understand why Kalamassery and Thripunithura (both municipalities,not panchayats) which share borders with Kochi corporation is not considered in list ....!! your list must be corporation + adjuscent municipalities + OG panchayats. isnt it?--Shrieekk (talk) 09:57, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Samaleks, the link provided in the article(world gazeteer) is saying that the population of kochi city in 2009 is 254461....!!!! what is this? how this like blunder sites are added in article? please check this.--Shrieekk (talk) 10:03, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Educational Institution Image

Isn't it better to have an image of CUSAT/Maharaja's College in educational section? These are the institutions that immediately come into mind when one hear of Kochi. Shekure (talk) 10:47, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

• Hi Shekure, Couldnt find one in wiki commons. If you have a copyright free picture, please upload and release it under free license. We can use it here. --Dewatchdog (talk) 17:49, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

- Those are the older institutes, but newer generation thinks of these too... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.196.134.219 (talk) 16:38, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Civic Administration & Economy

Mr Dewatchdog, please refrain from undoing the useful edits made in the Civic Administration & the Economy section. I've added the pic of Port Trust in the civic admin section as it administres the Kochi port & FYI, Kochi is a port city & it is important to give the pic of the body which administers the same. This is not listed anywhere else in the administration section. I've also added the pic of Cochin Shipyard in the economy section, which is one of the most important public sector company, not only in Kochi but also in India. Mr Dewatchdog has been warned by an administrator as he created his profile by copying mine. The next day, Mr Dewatchdog edited my profile, to make both of our profiles different. I don't know what your problem is. Gantlet (talk) 13:18, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

How you are addressing me as 'Mr. ' without knowing my gender? The edits you made are not useful. The Civic Administration covers Corporation, Judiciary, and Police. How come the Cochin port picture can be shown in that section? Also, the picture of the HC is already added in that section. The picture of cochin shipyard is not in a thumbnail format. It is a panoramic view. Also, 2 pictures exists in that section now. If you are so adamant in adding the shipyard photo, remove the picture of the Infopark (IT contribution to Cochin economy is negligible when compared to other economic sectors). Also try to trim the photo to a square picture. If you are OK with these, add your pictures, else publish it in your own blog; not here. --Dewatchdog (talk) 18:56, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

So you know how to talk. Mr or Mrs, whatever. Where in the rules is given that you cannot add more than 2 photos in a particular section. There is no problem in giving the shipyard photo in the economy section. By the way, I would have respected your views if you had created your own profile. But you've rather edited my profile, to make yours different, after being warned by the admin. This is most shameful on you. By the way, I accept that civic administration covers the corporation, judiciary, and police. But the Port trust is also an administrative wing, under the Indian govt. So there is no better section to publish this photo. Now don't say "then why publish it ?". I really don't understand why you don't like other people updating the article. Are you being selfish or you don't like Kochi. I really didn't mean to tell this much, but you've made me to. No offence. Gantlet (talk) 23:31, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

You are a liar. Not worth talking to you. I have read your talk page and got to know that you are displaying many things in your user page without actually being eligible for it. Ha ha.. and now trying to advise me?? This is so ridiculous. Grow up kid. First fix your user page, and then try to complain about me. I dont give even a penny to your responses. I am from Kochi but it doesnt matter much. If you like or dislike Kochi, it is a problem here. Here you should be neutral. Not in favor of or not against of. Hope your brain is working now, and you are understanding the point. And the reasons for removing the pictures is the same as i stated earlier. Come back with a valid and logical answer kid. Let God give you a logical brain --Dewatchdog (talk) 06:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Here is another evidence of you trying to white-wash yourself. Check here: Gantlet removing a warning from his talk page. You removed a warning from an admin from your talk page. You were warned for creating another account yourself. See the true color. He used this account to award a star to himself. So pity. This reveals the true quality. I suggest you better start your own page in the cyber space and post all the pictures you want there. Please dont ruin the quality of wiki pages. --Dewatchdog (talk) 06:35, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Seems that you have done a lot of research all these days regarding my profile. I've added barnstars created another profile & placed posts in my profile. All these were part of my experiments with Wikipedia & my user profiles, when I really started editing. I don't do it now. Now regarding the removal of the warning, even I noticed it now. I've redid it back. If I had done that on purpose I could have removed all the warnings displayed in my talk page. I know removing something from a userpage is not hidden. Anyone can notice it. It's not a big deal. Anyway, congrats for doing this research. These are nothing compared to what you've did. I've just tried editing my profile, as the part of my experiments. But what you've did is edit some other's profile. Now who is a kid here. You cannot convince me or anyone else with your stupid explanations regarding the removal of the pics. Along with undoing the pics you are also removing the fact written about the St. Francis CSI Church under it's pic, which is not given anywhere else in the article. I don't know how to fill some sense in you. Gantlet (talk) 08:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Repeating: The Civic Administration covers Corporation, Judiciary, and Police. How come the Cochin port picture can be shown in that section? Also, the picture of the HC is already added in that section. The picture of cochin shipyard is not in a thumbnail format. It is a panoramic view. Also, 2 pictures exists in that section now. If you are so adamant in adding the shipyard photo, remove the picture of the Infopark (IT contribution to Cochin economy is negligible when compared to other economic sectors). Also try to trim the photo to a square picture. You said " But the Port trust is also an administrative wing, under the Indian govt. So there is no better section to publish this photo. " If this is the case, can I add the administrative office building picture of "Andi Vikasana Co-operation Board" which is also under the govt? :-) Wake up. Dont give these kind of nutty explanations. Now regarding your user page: Dont try to act as if you are so genuine. If that is the case, you would have removed the false claims from your user page. But still it is the same. Also no one believe you if you say that you were not aware that you removed a warning yourself !!! how absurd!!! --Dewatchdog (talk) 06:11, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Now I'm gonna have fun undoing all time. I'm not going to discuss this further, as this has become an argument page rather than discussion page. Discussion is an exchange of knowledge, an argument an exchange of ignorance. Gantlet (talk) 13:52, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Suggest fallback to an earlier version prior to edit war

Now that both editors involved in the recent edit war have been established as using socks, I suggest we fall back to an earlier version of the article as it existed prior to the most recent edit war [28]. This would have the effect of wiping clean the most recent conflict which seems mainly to have been about image placement. I see no point in rewarding edit warring by letting either of the recent versions stand. See:

• Bubluonline (talk · contribs), sock of Gantlet (talk · contribs)

• 199.67.131.152 (talk · contribs), IP sock of Dewatchdog (talk · contribs)

The fallback that I just did lets stand an addition of a reference related to economic conditions. [29] Perhaps some deeper fallback is in order, I did not examine things prior to 6 March 2010. If others do not agree with this fallback, by all means change it. Buddhipriya (talk) 19:33, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Nonexistent Image in "Name"

The image (File:Kochi FishingNet.jpg) in the section called name doesn't exist. We can't have something red like that mucking up our featured article. Perhaps we can use File:Chinese fishingnet kochi.jpg instead. Codedon (talk) 05:25, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move to Kochi. Consensus seems to be that this is the primary topic for the term. (To Kotakkasut: Okay, I'll do this one for half the price since it took nine days instead of seven. By the way, everyone is welcome to help out with the backlog at Wikipedia:Requested moves.) Jafeluv (talk) 12:47, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

---

Kochi, India → Kochi, Kerala — Relisting. harej 08:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

As per Wikipedia naming conventions on place names, the order is as follows: place, state, country. Examples include Taiping, Perak, not Taiping, Malaysia, Kesha, Hunan, not Kesha, China and Athens, Ohio, not Athens, United States. Therefore according to proper order of this place name, Kochi, Kerala, India, this page should be named Kochi, Kerala, not Kochi, India. Yours faithfully, kotakkasut 16:28, 1 August 2010 (UTC) Update Kochi, India → Kochi - A better title for the page move. kotakkasut 10:08, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

That is a drastic oversimplication. There are two considerations which bear on Athens, Ohio, which are why we use it: Athens, United States is not idiom, and it is still ambiguous (see Athens, Georgia). Does either of them have a parallel here? (And that is still oversimplified; see WP:NCGN for much more; in particular, place, country is the default disambiguated title.) Not yet Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:50, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Should the article be simply at Kochi per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC or is Kōchi, Kōchi in Japan sufficiently notable? — AjaxSmack 02:57, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support. I think Kochi, Kerala is a proper name, as in Salem, Tamil Nadu. There are many places named Salem in the United States, but then Salem, Tamil Nadu seems fine a name, so should Kochi, Kerala. Swaroop (talk) 05:01, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment. Why shouldn't it be just Kochi, and probably have a disambiguation link on the page to go to the ones in Japan? Swaroop (talk) 05:01, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment Swaroop, I totally agree with you, the name Kochi, Kerala makes more sense right? I don't think you can name it to just Kochi though, because the place in Japan is usually spelt as Kochi also in maps, it's only spelt as Kōchi in Hepburn romanisation. kotakkasut 00:19, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

• Comment Agree with Swaroop. The city in India is clearly the primary use of Kochi. All other uses are either minor or derivative. This article should be at Kochi and the other uses listed at Kochi (disambiguation). -- 00:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment I'm changing my mind and agreeing with everyone that this page should be moved to simply, Kochi. kotakkasut 01:37, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support a move to Kochi - the Indian city is clearly the primary topic with all of the others deriving their name from the Indian city or they are minor. The only plausible alternative use is the former kingdom but that is better known as Kingdom of Cochin in English. The naming convention is fine for names where there is no primary topic and there is a probability of confusion, but in this case we should use common sense and be prepared to break conventions where necessary. Green Giant (talk) 03:20, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose IMO the context warrants a distinction between the places with the same name in India, Japan and Cyprus. Therefore the highlighting factor here is "Country" not "province-state". Had there been another Kochi in India, i would have voted support. Arjun^codename024 15:33, 6 August 2010 (UTC) Well if there is an agreement the this article could be deemed as the primary topic for the name "Kochi", it would do fine. Arjun^codename024 15:35, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment So Arjun, in other words, you disagree with the move to Kochi, Kerala but agree with the move Kochi right? kotakkasut 16:05, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Support move to Kochi :- Several search engines are fetching details about Indian city of Kochi over other Kochi. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Samaleks (talk • contribs) 12:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose move to Kochi—ambiguous with Kōchi in Japan. Spacepotato (talk) 07:59, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Thanks for your opinion guys! I have a question though, why is this discussion not closed yet? It's more than seven days already. A consensus should have been made. To those who are responsible to close this discussion, procrastination is not good you know. kotakkasut 11:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Lead, Question

Kochi is also the largest city in South India without a Hindu majority => What statement is this? Very much idoiotic to be included in an encyclopedia. Let me ask my doubts. I request the "elited editors" to publish their thoughts too.

• Is this so important to be published in the first paragraph itself? Is it such an important information like "Kochi is called the Queen of Arabian sea"?
• What is the advantage of being the largest city in South india without Hindu majority?
• What you mean by "without Hindu majority"? THe sentence is confusing. If you check the percentage of Hindus, it is more than the other religions. This implies that Hindus are the majority. Are you referring that Kochi is a city where Hindus is less than 50 % ? If so, the claim "without Hindu majority" is not accurate, and is confusing too.
• There are several cities in India or South India where Hindus are less than 50%.

I hope i will be answered by the intellectual editors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.193.221.140 (talk) 11:31, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

First please assume good faith. The information provided can be quite interesting, especially if Hinduism is the largest belief in the region. This little bit of information relates to politics and day to day life of the city. The question of the majority is simple 50% or more is a majority, Hindus are still the largest individual group(plurality) but the larger group is the non-hindus making this the majority. - Mcmatter (talk|contrib) 18:06, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

IMO, it is a significant and interesting point worthy to be included in the lead. Kochi has 47% Hindus per the census report - this falls short of majority. Since, Kerala and India has a Hindu majority; and most big cities have a Hindu majority; this feature is distinctive to Kochi and fits well in the lede (IMO). And i don't see anything "idiotic" to be honest. Arjun^codename024 09:31, 16 July 2010 (UTC) Plus, make sure you get rid of the confusion between majority and plurality. Arjun^codename024 09:35, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Hyderabad is the largest city in South India, without a Hindu majority. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.193.216.222 (talk) 05:53, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The demographics of Hyderbad is Hindus 45%, Muslims 40%, Others 15%. So, it is wrong to say that Kochi is the largest city in South India without a Hindu majority. Thank you, PKV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.67.131.153 (talk • contribs) 05:58, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

"Epitome of adventure"

Arunvarmaother has added this line: "[[Mahatma Gandhi]] used to refer the city as ''Epitome of Adventure''<ref>http://expressbuzz.com/Cities/Kochi/kochi-from-a-vantage-point/149015.html</ref>" with the edit summary as "Information is now sourced and has verifiable reference". I am not entirely convinced that this is a good way to go about this - as it stands, the Wikipedia article is citing a newspaper/?blog review of a book by "Tanya Abraham" with a claim that MK Gandhi said/used these specific words in reference to Cochin. I believe that is stretching WP:RS to breaking point. It would be better to source this information directly from Abraham's book but even better would be a quote directly from Gandhi himself in his collected works or his diary for example. A cursory search of Google books turns up three possibilities of which two contain the sentence "The sea is an epitome of adventures" whilst a copy of Gandhi's works on a wiki at IIIT-Hyderabad says that Gandhi addressed a meeting in Cochin in 1925 and said: "Living on the seaside you are aware of what adventure can do. The sea is an epitome of adventures." Is it possible that this statement is the basis of the claim that Cochin is "the epitome of adventure"? Green Giant (talk) 04:38, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Dear Greengiant. Gandhiji has made the statement in a public meet about Kochi and its proposed harbour in 1925, when British Govt decided to construct a new large modern harbour.

Gandhi was referring to the fact, Kochi and its backwaters (Surrounding water bodies) which may appear as sea to him, that it is an epitome of adventure. He was referring to the place Fort Kochi, which was the first point in India where European Colonization started with portuguese, dutch, french and British trying to occupying the supremacy of the fort. He was intending that the sea and land was the epitome of all adventures and was asking local youth to get inspired and join into the adventure of getting Freedom for India. http://books.google.co.in/books?id=zhGwA0umwAoC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=Kochi+Epitome+of+adventure&source=bl&ots=DYY70wWQvv&sig=TCnZzA5LXMJPDqeq8m6Y0F7SZYs&hl=en&ei=blyxTJzXNI2mvQPX3tS7Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Kochi%20Epitome%20of%20adventure&f=false

http://vivekcochin.blogspot.com/2008_01_01_archive.html

I feel that makes nothing wrong to determine his reference that the city is an epitome of adventure --Arunvarmaother (talk) 06:35, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

As you are a user with few edits, I recommend you read WP:RS and WP:V to understand why your two links here are unacceptable as verifiable and reliable sources. The link page to the book on Google does not have any mention of the words "Kochi Epitome of adventure" except in the search box and the blog link cannot be considered a reliable source per WP:SELFPUBLISH. As for your statements:

• How do you know that "Kochi and its backwaters (Surrounding water bodies)" appeared as a sea to Gandhi?
• How do you know that Gandhi was "referring to the place Fort Kochi" when the IIIT copy of his works makes no mention of the fort, the city or any proposed new harbour.
• I can see where he says "the sea is the epitome of adventure" but how does that translate into Cochin being the epitome of adventure?

I am sorry to inform you that your last sentence ("I feel that makes nothing wrong to determine his reference that the city is an epitome of adventure") suggests to me that you and possibly many others have assumed that Gandhi mean't that "Cochin is the epitome of adventure" but if there is no direct evidence for this statement then it falls under original research and therefore should not be included in the article. Green Giant (talk) 16:28, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Slow to Industrialize?

The two references given for the statement "unlike other leading South Indian cities, Kochi has been slow to industrialise.[21][31]" Does not give ANY substantiation to that claim. The only thing I could find is in Ref 31

The emphasis on the social service sectors to the subordination of commodity-producing sectors has inherently weakened the economy. The growth rate has been low, industrialisation slow and investments tardy. As the labour absorption in the private sector has been either stagnant or falling, government and public sector employment has become an end in itself, resulting in overstaffing and inefficiency.

This article is about the whole Kerala, not specific to Kochi. A sweeping generalization can not be used as the basis for such a statement.

The said statement may be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DileepKS69 (talk • contribs) 06:08, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

The statement "unlike other leading South Indian cities, Kochi has been slow to industrialise" was discussed before. Kochi and Kerala was slow to industrialise and is still way behind other leading SI cities. Even Coimbatore, Madurai, Dharwad etc are ahead of the industries in all 3 cities of Kerala combined. Thiruvananthapuram and Calicut is very less industrialised and Kochi is leading in Kerala; but not with respect to leading South Indian cities. Anyways, I havent checked the citations provided by you after re-phrasing the sentence. Good going with the edits, but please remember not to overtone or glorify the article. Hope you will soon get the norms of editing wiki pages, and stay long here. --Samaleks (talk) 14:51, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Interesting advice. BTW, I did read your talk page.

I consider that statement to be delibrately phrased to show the city in a negative light, especially since it considerably deviates from the content cited. If you can phrase it according to the citation, I have no problem. Be my guest. DileepKS69 (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Persistent and insignificant issues

Folks, the following issues which are minor seem to recur at the title.

1. Metropolitan City Vs City. I see that a number of people hate the city being called a Metropolitan City. We should admit that the city is not yet considered as a metro. We could call it a city with metropolitan features, but not a metro city in reality. I think we should leave it at that.

2. Distance from Capital. I believe Cochin have sufficient standing on its own to be located independently, so this reference is un necessary. Does anyone give the distance of New York city from Albany, or Los Angeles from Sacramento? Do we really need that mention of that distance?

DileepKS69 (talk) 02:50, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

The current status of the city according to the population is not Metropolitan city, since the population is less than 1 million. So, "Type" in the Infobox of the article should be City.

It is natural and not a wrong notion to refer a place with the distance from the capital. Comparisons with New York / Los Angeles does not suits here. Further, it is not about being located independently; it is about giving an information to the readers that how far it is situated from the state capital. I dont see any strong reason to change it. Cheers,-- Rajith Mohan ^{(Talk to me..)} 10:54, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Giving the distance from the capital is not an established norm at Wikipedia, even for the cities in India. For example, look at Coimbatore, Madurai, Pune, Nagpur, Vadodara, Surat, Kanpur, Indore, Ludhiana, Agra, Visakhapatnam and I can go on... Only a feeble minority of cities in India quote the distance to the capital, like Mysore. It is obviously an EXCEPTION to the norm. I don't see any strong reason to have it either. DileepKS69 (talk) 12:07, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

I too agree for keeping the info to quote the location with reference to the capital. I dont either believe it will reduce the importance (if that is your fear) of Kochi. Btw, I can see lot of edits which is slightly POV, may be due to the reason that some of these new editors hails from the place :-) Lets try to keep the article neat and clean. I suggest to put the article to peer review. Thanks, --Samaleks (talk) 14:38, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, I know a lot of editors would agree and believe with you, but you failed to answer the question. VAST MAJORITY of the cities do not quote distance to capital, then what is the reason behind your insistence here? Kindly answer that please. And how does it relate to the neatness and cleanliness of the article?

FYI, There is no place for emotions like fear, love, pride, envy etc in an encyclopedia, and I am not driven by that. Concepts like fact, fairness, balance and verifiability are the driving force here.

Yes, it is my intention to constantly monitor this article (and the associated ones), and keep it neat, clean, true and accurate. You should have already got an idea about my intentions by the few edits I did. DileepKS69 (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Dear Dileep, you could be polite when talking to others here. Quoting distance from the capital is not a big mistake. It should be retained. Just for the sake of satisfying your pride or belief, it cannot be removed. --Chektomate (talk) 03:22, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Dear Chektomate, could you please point out which part of my message was impolite? I agree that it is not a big mistake. What I don't understand is the reason why it should be retained. No one, including you, have given a reason for retaining it, other than stating "it should be retained". Allow me to raise the same argument that you did. Just for the sake of pride or belief of someone, it can not be retained.

Now, let me ask very politely. Could you please, if you wouldn't mind, provide a reason why it should be retained, when majority of the other city pages do not carry it? Thanks. DileepKS69 (talk) 04:47, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

• "Other cities doesnot carry some information, so it should not be added here" is a weak argument. For instance; the statement "..luxurious Air-conditioned low-floor Orange buses as well as non-air conditioned Yellow buses under JNNURM" is not there in other city pages even though JNNURM buses are operating there too (well, the colour may be different :D ). Further, other cities like Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore etc does not contain all the stone and nail information about every thing in the city in the main page. The details are kept in the sub-pages. But here, you are trying to put so much info in to the main page, thus not keeping the article simple and high level. Cheers, -- Rajith Mohan ^{(Talk to me..)} 08:20, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

If you consider that as a weak argument, please provide your stronger arguments in favour of retaining it. Till now the only reason being offered is "there is no reason to remove".

I happen to agree with you on the statement on JNNURM buses. Please edit that out if you please.

We are not talking about Mumbai and Bangalore. We are talking about cities and UAs similar to Kochi. And don't you think you are contradicting yourself when you say that there is too much information on the page, and at the same time, you want to retain a segment of information?

Let me repeat. My sole argument for suggesting deletion of the distance from capital is that most of the other similar cities don't have it. You need to show what is different about Kochi to demand a deviation from that norm. Having other similar deviations is not a reason for having this one. We can debate each of those under its own merits and demerits. DileepKS69 (talk) 09:45, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Dear Friends, I join with Dileep that quoting insignificant distance from the state capital is irrelevant, as it serves no use. We have a map locator hence it helps a person to understand the position. Since most of the similar 2nd tier cities pages donot have similar norm or standard in Wikipedia, there is no need for such a reference in Kochi. If we look, even other Kerala cities like Kozhikode, Kottayam do have made such tags. Hence undue interest is expressed by few here to retain an insignificant sentence. Friends, at Wikipedia, our sole interest to ensure readers know the real and true information without sense of promotion, loyalty or bias. I think, lets avoid using this forum for showcasing our regional bias or city loyalty, which can be done in other net forums, where there are enough scope for doing so. My humble request, lets join our hands together in ensuring Wikikerala Project gets maximum FA status and better information. --Arunvarmaother (talk) 15:48, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

If you want citation, ASK!

Deleting text is NOT the method to demand citation. Please mark the statement for citation, and it shall be attended to. DileepKS69 (talk) 01:44, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Hindu Majority

The comment about Hindu majority had been discussed before, but we need to look at it again. The data says Hindus 47%, Christians 35%, Muslims 17%.

What is a Majority? There is ABSOLUTE MAJORITY, which means something is more than 50%. Then there is relative majority, which says something is more than the other. Absolute majority is useful only for voting on something. It doesn't apply when you classify things. The assertion in the article goes against the common sense of majority. It also makes un necessary connotations about the immaculately harmonious secular environment the region had been blessed with. Religion means NOTHING in the city, so it has no place in its wiki page.

This will be edited out soon, unless someone gives a good reason to retain it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DileepKS69 (talk • contribs) 01:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Let me offer a compromise

Since some editors seem to insist that the fact that Kochi is the second largest city in the state, I offer a compromise. Why don't we retain it, after removing the phrase "after the state capital"? It serves the fact, doesn't it?

DileepKS69 (talk) 11:55, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

So the phrase after the state capital is your real problem? I don't know what is the problem with it and why you fear. May be because of your POV. :). Anyway, it also serves the fact. ;) Happy editing :) BINOY ^Talk 02:27, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

There is no fear, but there is POV. The question should be whether the POV is neutral or not. The said phrase doesn't serve the fact. It seem to serve your POV, and I feel you are confusing between the POV and fact there.

The compromise was offered not to serve fact. It was done to end an un-necessary conflict that doesn't really help anything, and move on. If it is your belief that sticking to your POV is the best for the article, all I would say is I acknowledge your right to do so. DileepKS69 (talk) 05:17, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Dear Dileep, You have to Accept that Madras is a satellite town like Devanahalli, of Bangalore.Doesn't get it? I mean, the City of Cochin is merely a suburb of the oh mighty """" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.19.181 (talk) 06:40, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Article Improvement

Hello all new editors here. I have tried to improve the article quality through some edits. I have tried to clearly state "what and why" of all the edits in the edit summary. I suggest to discuss here, if you have any concerns or questions about it. --Chektomate (talk) 20:38, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Chektomate. That is what exactly we need. Give proper substantiation for the actions, and defend them. I wish all the editors would follow your example.

DileepKS69 (talk) 01:22, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Added after reviewing all changes: I have restored two of your edits about citations, Checktomate. Could you please explain what was the problem with them? DileepKS69 (talk) 01:38, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Sure Dileep, and thanks for the co-operation, rather than blind reverts. Please educate your fellow editors about "wiki style" of writing. We cannot push only positive things and assumptions here.

I am a little bsy now, and will explain soon here, why the citations were removed. Let us sort it out. Also, I suggest after our mutual reviews, we will put the article for WIKI REVIEW, where other senior wiki editors will also review the article to improve the quality. --Chektomate (talk) 06:36, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Dear Dileepks69, The references you have provided in the Sports section for the Golf Courses are of Wikimapia, which is not a valid reference. The references to any wiki related projects are not valid in wiki. The wikimapia project is not authentic and stable, in the sense, it is open for all to edit and add(just like other wiki projects). Hence, I have replaced it with other citations. However, I couldnt find a valid reference for the golfcourse at Navalbase. Please help.--Chektomate (talk) 04:52, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, wikimapia/google earth should be a reference if you can identify it without the assistance of any markup. A golf course is a very identifiable feature in a satellite map, and the image of the naval golf course is very clearly identifiable as a golf course.

Anyway, here are other references: http://indiannavy.nic.in/kochi.html, http://www.hindu.com/2004/12/25/stories/2004122514960300.htm, http://www.hindu.com/2009/03/15/stories/2009031555941400.htm. Have your pick.

DileepKS69 (talk) 12:30, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I counted the greens on the navy course. It is 9 holes. CIAL opened with 9, but phase2 is in progress to make it full 18 holes, as ped the news items. Do you think it makes sense to add that info?

DileepKS69 (talk) 12:44, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I have added the citation for the Naval base golf course from the latest news piece from "The Hindu". Thank you for your help. --Chektomate (talk) 14:40, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Dear Dileepks69, the information you added about NASSCOM ratings is of 2002. According to the 2009 rankings, Bangalore stands first, followed by Chennai. Kochi is in the 12th position. May be the uncertainity on Smart city might have pulled down the rank of Kochi. In fact, the Smart city issue have degraded the image of the entire state. I will soon provide the citation on the 2009 ITES rankings. Thank you, --Chektomate (talk) 15:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Check, I saw the 'updated 2006' date stamp, and thought the report is of that date. My bad. I did do a search for later years, but didn't get a conclusive datapoint. You are most welcome to edit it with the updated reference. DileepKS69 (talk) 15:25, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

why kochi second largest it IS the largest in kerala no doubt. somethin fishy here.