Talk:KiHa 80 series

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 22:34, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

KiHa 81-3 car at the Kyoto Railway Museum

• ... that the KiHa 80 series car KiHa 81-3 (pictured) on display at the Kyoto Railway Museum was manufactured by a different company to that of the original KiHa 81-3 car?
  • ALT1: ... that the KiHa 80 series car KiHa 81-3 (pictured) on display at the Kyoto Railway Museum was manufactured by Kinki Sharyo, unlike the original KiHa 81-3 car (which was built by Teikoku Sharyo)?
  • ALT2 ... that the KiHa 80 series train car KiRo 82-800 had a lounge with a microwave and a refrigerator? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 20:49, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Created by MiasmaEternal (talk). Self-nominated at 03:04, 16 December 2021 (UTC).

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px.
Freely licensed: Used in article: Clear at 100px:

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Thank you for uploading this concise and clear article. Just a few minor points. 1. Three short paragraphs are not sourced - the sources are probably elsewhere in the article - please repeat them in those paragraphs? 2. Please add the DYK image to the article, so that we can use it here? 3. I am assuming that You do not have five DYKs yet, therefore you do not yet have to do a QPQ. - but please confirm that? 4. I am taking the source for the hooks on good faith, because I cannot read Japanese, so no problem there. 5. I prefer ALT1 because the design of the unit in the picture is fantastic - I love it - and yellow as well! - and ALT1 gives us the names of its manufacturers, which is worth knowing. If you agree, I'll strike out ALT0. Storye book (talk) 11:55, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

I've went ahead and added the sources and images. As for the QPQ situation, I've only done one DYK (for the KiHa 183 series), so no worries there. And I'll have to concur with you preferring ALT1 - the fact that the display car was built by Kinki Sharyo, and not Teikoku Sharyo like the original always stuck out to me. MiasmaEternal^TALK 21:58, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• Thank you, MiasmaEternal. This nom is good to go now. I look forward to seeing that great photo on DYK! Storye book (talk)
  • Hi there, @MiasmaEternal and Storye book! While the image is excellent, I think the hook relies a little too heavily on the image for interestingness. I don't think it'll jump out at people that a train car was manufactured by one person, rather than another—I've suggested an ALT2, but it's for a different car in the series. Do you have another hook that can use the image, and if not, thoughts on ALT2? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 20:49, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

• I am happy with ALT2, and I agree that it is interesting. My priority is always to get a nom through DYK at any cost (while still acting honourably of course). So although I'd rather see a good image being used, it's still OK if it isn't used. It is worth adding that the article says that most of that massive hood (bonnet in UK) was used to house the engine, and the car was wider than usual - a big like a Chevy ... Could we use something like that for the hook (without the Chevy) so that we could use the picture? Storye book (talk) 21:17, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

• So something like "DYK that... the engine hood on the KiHa 80 series, which was built in the 1960s, resembles that of a car from that era?" What are your thoughts, @Storye book? MiasmaEternal^TALK 23:36, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

• Or: "resembles some car-styles from that era"? Or something like that? "That of a car" appears to refer to a particular car, which might tantalise classic car aficionados. Otherwise, I'm personally happy with your suggestion. The only problem that I foresee is that we might be challenged by other editors who want a citation for it looking like some types of car, and we don't have such a citation, sadly. Storye book (talk) 10:14, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
• Second thoughts: Actually, I think the concentration on the image is OK, and I don't think that the hook is uninteresting to the people that matter. Our DYK has to have something for everyone, doesn't it, and it's a particular joy, perhaps, to be able to offer something to our large rail-enthusiast contingent. We are very lucky to have them along with us, because they contribute a lot, and they use our services a lot. I can't imagine them not being interested in that hook and image. After all, we happily offer hooks and pictures to fans of baseball, cricket, and other stuff which bores a lot of us to death, but we don't grudge that type of hook to the fans who will really appreciate it? Storye book (talk) 10:27, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

• ALT3: ... that the engine hood on the first iterations of the KiHa 80 series (example pictured), which was built in the 1960s, resembles that of some car styles from that era? - I added in "the first iteration", since it was only the KiHa 81 series that had the hood, and not the later KiHa 82s. MiasmaEternal☎ 11:49, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

• I like ALT3, but you would need to add a similar comment into the article, with a citation. ALT1 should go through prep with no trouble even if some people find it dull, but I fear that ALT3 would be thrown out (however entertaining it is) if it did not have a citation. Storye book (talk) 13:51, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

• Yeah, I find myself preferring ALT1, since it would be a nightmare trying to find a citation for ALT3. MiasmaEternal☎ 20:54, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

• Thank you, MiasmaEternal. Good to go, with ALT1. Storye book (talk) 22:05, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
  • @MiasmaEternal and Storye book: I'm sorry you went through all that discussion to be back where we started! This can be labyrinthian sometimes. However, I'm afraid I don't see ALT1 to be interesting enough to a broad audience—I couldn't run it in a non-image slot, for example, because then it doesn't even have the image to draw people to the article. That kind of reliance suggests that we probably need a different hook. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 22:12, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
    • Fair enough - the last DYK I submitted for the KiHa 183 series, while it was obscure, it had a quirkiness to it (the ability to travel with stuffed animals on the Asahiyama Zoo service) that made it interesting to a broad audience. Alternatively, I'll make another suggestion:
    • ALT4: ... that to promote the KiHa 80 series train, a film was made of a 9-car set on the Kawagoe, Jōban and Tōhoku Main Lines?
    • - of course, I'm happy to run this without the picture (not ideal, but what can you do?) MiasmaEternal☎ 23:23, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

• I like the content of ALT4, and it is short enough with 164 characters, but I think it needs adjustment. You don't need to mention promotion twice and KiHa 81 twice, so maybe something like, to promote the KiHa 80 series a film was made of the set (of what?) on the blah lines. If we are now considering a general audience, we will need to explain what the set is. I have no idea. Is it the loco/engine and carriages/cars? Storye book (talk) 10:38, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

• I've adjusted it per your suggestion - as to the question of what it consists of, the non-Joyful Train KiHa 80 sets are split into two types: the KiHa 81 & KiHa 82 series. And they're called that because their lead power cars are KiHa 81 and 82 respectively. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:36, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

• @MiasmaEternal: That's a lot better, thank you. Sorry to keep asking for things. Now that we can see ALT4 clearly, the series numbers are not self-explanatory. I think that for the general public it needs "train" or "train car" or whatever in there, to give our average Joe something to click for. After all, ALTs 0, 1 and 2 all had "train" or "railway" in the hook. Hopefully, if we can get that sorted, we'll have something to put forward for the promoter. Storye book (talk) 21:48, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

• Done. MiasmaEternal☎ 21:54, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Promoter's comment: Thank you both so much! :D theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 22:34, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

ALT4 to T:DYK/P3

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:KiHa 80 series/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 02:14, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:14, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Images are appropriately tagged.

• What makes the following reliable sources?
  • Hobbycom.jp -- it's run by a corporate entity, but it's a hobby/fan site and I can't tell if there is editorial control over what it publishes
  • homepage3.nifty.com (FN 3)
  • toretabi.jp
• In the 1961-1972 section, no sources are given for the sentence starting "These cars", and the subsequent bullet list. The same applies to the sentence starting "Between 1964 and 1972" and the bullet list after that. There are also a couple of tables that have no sources, in "JR Hokkaido" and "JR Central".
• The only question I have about the text is the terminology. The title of the article is "KiHa 80 series"; it appears this implicitly includes cars classified as KiHa 81 and KiHa 82, which is fine. However, there are also cars listed that are classified as KiRo 80, KiSaShi 80, and KiShi 80. What do these prefixes mean, and why are they included in this article? (You can tell I know nothing about trains.)

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:03, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for taking the time to review the article. AFAIK, toretabi.jp is run by Kotsu Shimbunsha, who is a publisher specializing in railway-related publications (not sure about the rest). As for the sourcing, I've taken care of that. As for the terminology, this will answer your question. MiasmaEternal☎ 08:31, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

OK on toretabi.jp. For the other two, we need to either establish that they're reliable, or remove them. Looks like you missed a couple of the unsourced bits? And re the terminology, the link was interesting but wasn't quite what I was asking, or perhaps I didn't understand it well enough. What I was trying to ask was: given all the slightly different names for different types of cars, what's the rule that you're using to decide that a car should be covered in this article and not in some other article? On the face of it a car called KiSaShi 80 doesn't look like it should be covered by an article on the KiHa 80 series, but presumably there's a good reason for it; I just don't know what it is. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:21, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I've asked about the two sources you mentioned on WP:RSN. MiasmaEternal☎ 08:01, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

MiasmaEternal, I see you got a very helpful response at RSN (thank you, SamuelRiv!). I would interpret it as saying you should be able to find better sources for both citations, and they gave pointers to how to find new sources. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:55, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

MiasmaEternal, just checking you're still planning to work on this? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:36, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I am still planning to work on this (haven't got the chance to do so, since I've been busy). For the record, I've replaced the homepage3.nifty.com source with a more reliable one. As for the Hobbycom source, I've been able to figure out the volume of the Railway Data File series it's from, but not the exact page (I've filled out all the details that I could). I can't find any scans or copies for sale, so that's as good as I'll get for now. MiasmaEternal☎ 07:00, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

OK, I've struck those. I assume someone with a copy of the book would be able to verify the data? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:07, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Earwig finds no issues. Spotchecks:

• FN 5 cites "On October 14, a special train carrying the participants of that year's Asian Railways Conference made a round trip between Tokyo and Nikkō": verified.
• FN 3 cites "Steam locomotives were used widely in Japan during the mid-20th century, reaching a peak of 5,958 in 1946. Whilst necessary due to the damage brought on by the Second World War, there were disadvantages - when changing directions, steam locomotives would need to be shunted, possibly resulting in delays. Furthermore, due to the narrow-gauge railways in Japan (especially that between Tokyo and Osaka), they were considered inferior to trains with multiple motor cars": as far as I can tell the footnote only covers the first sentence.
• FN 20 cites "In 1960, two nine-car sets (along with eight extra cars) of what would be known as the KiHa 81 series were manufactured. These trains were also named the Hatsukari after the services on which they were introduced. In 1961, these sets received the fourth Blue Ribbon Award from the Japan Railfan Club": the footnote covers the last sentence and says they were named Hatsukari; it doesn't say that was after the services on which they were introduced but I think that's obvious enough. However the date of manufacture and the number of cars manufactured is not covered.
• FN 28 cites "From 1980 to April 2014, it was preserved and exhibited at the Modern Transportation Museum in Osaka, before being moved to the Kyoto Railway Museum. The original KiHa 81-3 car was built by Teikoku Sharyo, but the car on display was built by Kinki Sharyo. The front name plate is not attached as before, and the word "Kuroshio" is painted directly on the plate". I see the image of the 81-3, and this is a 2016 page showing it was in the Kyoto Railway Museum at that time. I can't see any of the other information in the source.

MiasmaEternal, assuming I haven't missed something on these, this means three of four verifications have failed. Can you take a look and see if I've misread the sources? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:07, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Hey, sorry for taking a while to respond - I've fixed at least most of these issues. MiasmaEternal☎ 07:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

The FN 3 additional citation doesn't seem to address the material not covered by the previous citation. The new citation for FN 20 is in Japanese and I don't have access. Can you paste here or email me the source text that covers this? Japanese is OK if it's electronic as I can machine-translate it. FN28 does not appear to have been addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:12, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

MiasmaEternal, just a reminder that these points need to be addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:47, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Yep - just in regards to FN 20; I don't have the source on hand. The only copies I could find won't arrive until mid-October if I bought it now. As for the rest of the FNs you raised, I might have taken care of them. MiasmaEternal☎ 11:05, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, looks like the others are fixed. For FN 20, if we don't have a current source and you can't access one soon, the material it would support needs to be removed from the article. Do you know another editor who might have access to a source? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:29, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

More spotchecks, since the first set found problems:

• FN 4 cites "In late 1958, the first meeting of the Asian Railways Conference was held in Tokyo, and a decision was made to develop diesel cars to replace the steam-operated Hatsukari services. In early 1960, the new cars were scheduled to start service in December of that year." The source doesn't mention the 1958 ARC, only the 1960 ARC.

MiasmaEternal, I think I'm going to have to fail this nomination. The first pass spotchecks failed, which means I have to get clean spotchecks second time round to have confidence in the sourcing, but the first thing I checked has come up with an error. I'm going to hold off on actually failing because this is a Japanese source and I'm relying on machine translation -- if you can show me I've missed the information in the source that would resolve this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:04, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I did (sort of) find information on the 1958 ARC via this tweet - it's a scan from the July 1958 edition of a journal named 鉄道技術 (Railway Technology). I ran OCR and I couldn't find anything to do with diesel trains, unfortunately. MiasmaEternal☎ 07:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

You might be able to use that to source the text, but the point of a spotcheck is to verify that the article is already correctly sourced, so I'm going to fail this. Best of luck when you renominate this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

KiHa 83-1 and KiHa 80-501 both rebuilt from KiHa 82-109?

In the Furano Express section of this article, the car table says that both KiHa 83-1 and KiHa 80-501 were both rebuilt from KiHa 82-109. I feel this was a typo, but I wanted to take this concern here in case of some weird anomaly. Courtesy pinging MiasmaEternal as primary contributor to this article. XtraJovial (talk • contribs) 16:22, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

@XtraJovial You guessed correctly - 80-501 was in fact rebuilt from 82-110. MiasmaEternal☎ 00:13, 15 June 2023 (UTC)