Talk:KiHa 80 series/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 02:14, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:14, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Images are appropriately tagged.

• What makes the following reliable sources?
  • Hobbycom.jp -- it's run by a corporate entity, but it's a hobby/fan site and I can't tell if there is editorial control over what it publishes
  • homepage3.nifty.com (FN 3)
  • toretabi.jp
• In the 1961-1972 section, no sources are given for the sentence starting "These cars", and the subsequent bullet list. The same applies to the sentence starting "Between 1964 and 1972" and the bullet list after that. There are also a couple of tables that have no sources, in "JR Hokkaido" and "JR Central".
• The only question I have about the text is the terminology. The title of the article is "KiHa 80 series"; it appears this implicitly includes cars classified as KiHa 81 and KiHa 82, which is fine. However, there are also cars listed that are classified as KiRo 80, KiSaShi 80, and KiShi 80. What do these prefixes mean, and why are they included in this article? (You can tell I know nothing about trains.)

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:03, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for taking the time to review the article. AFAIK, toretabi.jp is run by Kotsu Shimbunsha, who is a publisher specializing in railway-related publications (not sure about the rest). As for the sourcing, I've taken care of that. As for the terminology, this will answer your question. MiasmaEternal☎ 08:31, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

OK on toretabi.jp. For the other two, we need to either establish that they're reliable, or remove them. Looks like you missed a couple of the unsourced bits? And re the terminology, the link was interesting but wasn't quite what I was asking, or perhaps I didn't understand it well enough. What I was trying to ask was: given all the slightly different names for different types of cars, what's the rule that you're using to decide that a car should be covered in this article and not in some other article? On the face of it a car called KiSaShi 80 doesn't look like it should be covered by an article on the KiHa 80 series, but presumably there's a good reason for it; I just don't know what it is. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:21, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

I've asked about the two sources you mentioned on WP:RSN. MiasmaEternal☎ 08:01, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

MiasmaEternal, I see you got a very helpful response at RSN (thank you, SamuelRiv!). I would interpret it as saying you should be able to find better sources for both citations, and they gave pointers to how to find new sources. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:55, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

MiasmaEternal, just checking you're still planning to work on this? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:36, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi, I am still planning to work on this (haven't got the chance to do so, since I've been busy). For the record, I've replaced the homepage3.nifty.com source with a more reliable one. As for the Hobbycom source, I've been able to figure out the volume of the Railway Data File series it's from, but not the exact page (I've filled out all the details that I could). I can't find any scans or copies for sale, so that's as good as I'll get for now. MiasmaEternal☎ 07:00, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

OK, I've struck those. I assume someone with a copy of the book would be able to verify the data? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:07, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Earwig finds no issues. Spotchecks:

• FN 5 cites "On October 14, a special train carrying the participants of that year's Asian Railways Conference made a round trip between Tokyo and Nikkō": verified.
• FN 3 cites "Steam locomotives were used widely in Japan during the mid-20th century, reaching a peak of 5,958 in 1946. Whilst necessary due to the damage brought on by the Second World War, there were disadvantages - when changing directions, steam locomotives would need to be shunted, possibly resulting in delays. Furthermore, due to the narrow-gauge railways in Japan (especially that between Tokyo and Osaka), they were considered inferior to trains with multiple motor cars": as far as I can tell the footnote only covers the first sentence.
• FN 20 cites "In 1960, two nine-car sets (along with eight extra cars) of what would be known as the KiHa 81 series were manufactured. These trains were also named the Hatsukari after the services on which they were introduced. In 1961, these sets received the fourth Blue Ribbon Award from the Japan Railfan Club": the footnote covers the last sentence and says they were named Hatsukari; it doesn't say that was after the services on which they were introduced but I think that's obvious enough. However the date of manufacture and the number of cars manufactured is not covered.
• FN 28 cites "From 1980 to April 2014, it was preserved and exhibited at the Modern Transportation Museum in Osaka, before being moved to the Kyoto Railway Museum. The original KiHa 81-3 car was built by Teikoku Sharyo, but the car on display was built by Kinki Sharyo. The front name plate is not attached as before, and the word "Kuroshio" is painted directly on the plate". I see the image of the 81-3, and this is a 2016 page showing it was in the Kyoto Railway Museum at that time. I can't see any of the other information in the source.

MiasmaEternal, assuming I haven't missed something on these, this means three of four verifications have failed. Can you take a look and see if I've misread the sources? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:07, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Hey, sorry for taking a while to respond - I've fixed at least most of these issues. MiasmaEternal☎ 07:42, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

The FN 3 additional citation doesn't seem to address the material not covered by the previous citation. The new citation for FN 20 is in Japanese and I don't have access. Can you paste here or email me the source text that covers this? Japanese is OK if it's electronic as I can machine-translate it. FN28 does not appear to have been addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:12, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

MiasmaEternal, just a reminder that these points need to be addressed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:47, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Yep - just in regards to FN 20; I don't have the source on hand. The only copies I could find won't arrive until mid-October if I bought it now. As for the rest of the FNs you raised, I might have taken care of them. MiasmaEternal☎ 11:05, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Yes, looks like the others are fixed. For FN 20, if we don't have a current source and you can't access one soon, the material it would support needs to be removed from the article. Do you know another editor who might have access to a source? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:29, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

More spotchecks, since the first set found problems:

• FN 4 cites "In late 1958, the first meeting of the Asian Railways Conference was held in Tokyo, and a decision was made to develop diesel cars to replace the steam-operated Hatsukari services. In early 1960, the new cars were scheduled to start service in December of that year." The source doesn't mention the 1958 ARC, only the 1960 ARC.

MiasmaEternal, I think I'm going to have to fail this nomination. The first pass spotchecks failed, which means I have to get clean spotchecks second time round to have confidence in the sourcing, but the first thing I checked has come up with an error. I'm going to hold off on actually failing because this is a Japanese source and I'm relying on machine translation -- if you can show me I've missed the information in the source that would resolve this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:04, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I did (sort of) find information on the 1958 ARC via this tweet - it's a scan from the July 1958 edition of a journal named 鉄道技術 (Railway Technology). I ran OCR and I couldn't find anything to do with diesel trains, unfortunately. MiasmaEternal☎ 07:57, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

You might be able to use that to source the text, but the point of a spotcheck is to verify that the article is already correctly sourced, so I'm going to fail this. Best of luck when you renominate this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:16, 20 September 2022 (UTC)