Talk:Jonah of Hankou

Knockin' On Heaven's Door

Apparently Bob Dylan's song "Knockin' on Heaven's Door" was written about his death, (says so in the article about the song anyway). Is this true? If so should it be added as trivia? Everytime 13:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

That song has nothing to do with St. Jonah. Frjohnwhiteford 17:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I thought as much. I was trying hard to make a connection with the lyrics but it made no sense at all! Everytime 13:13, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Is there a good reason why?

Is there a reason why Vegaswikian wishes to remove this category from this article?

"Category:Saints"

Frjohnwhiteford 05:55, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Copyright infringement

Frjohnwhiteford seems to have copied this para:

"In 1918 the Revolution forced the young hieromonk to leave Kazan. He was arrested by the communists and suffered beatings to the point of loss of consciousness, and imprisonment. Thus, sharing the fate of the New Confessors of Russia, by God's providence Hieromonk Jonah was freed by the White Army, which was situated beyond the Ural Mountains. Having been quickly raised to the rank of Igumen, he was assigned as the senior priest of the southern volunteer troops. With the army of Ataman Dutov, Fr. Jonah withdrew to the borders of Western China, being subjected to all kinds of hardships while crossing the Pamir cliffs, often forced to grab on to jagged ledges and the sparse shrubbery of the ice covered cliffs with wounded hands. After crossing the Gobi Desert, they finally reached Beijing, where Fr. Jonah was received into the Ecclesiastical Mission there and soon consecrated bishop for Manzhuria [St. Jonah was officially the bishop of Hankou, in the Hubei province, but actually ministered and worked in the town of Manzhuria]."

...and possibly others from this website. It was based on a text by Vera Kencis which was published in Orthodox Life. The site claims copyright. Is there a good explanation? Malick78 (talk) 12:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

There is a good explanation. That website is my parish website, and I put that paragraph together in its current form, drawing from a number of different sources. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 19:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• The website also contains others sections that have been lifted pretty much wholesale. The following sections have been copied by Frjohnwhiteford - and the only reason they are slightly different now is because I edited it earlier to get rid of all the hyperbole and sentimental language:

"Bishop Jonah had been caring for a priest who died of typhoid fever. He himself contracted chronic tonsillitis[...]

Due to complications, Bishop Jonah developed blood poisoning. His doctor suggested he avail himself of the archbishop's presence to have confession and partake of the Holy Mysteries. Bishop Jonah understood that his hours were numbered. After having communed himself, he went into his study and typed out his final testament: [...]

Meanwhile, a moleben for the health of the Bishop was being served in the church. There one could hear the insistent cries of the children: "Dear God, please, do not take away our Vladyka!"

Returning to his room, Bishop Jonah individually blessed those tearfully crowded in his quarters. He then put on the epitrachilion and cuffs which had belonged to Elder Ambrose of Optina and began loudly and with prostrations, to read the canon for the departure of the soul. He asked to be buried in his white, embroidered vestments, simply, without pomp. Then, overcome with weakness, he lay down on his bed: "God's will be done. Now I shall die." He then was given a cross and candle to hold and died within minutes, surrounded by many of his close friends.[...]

A ten year old boy, Nicholas Dergachev, who was crippled, had been suffering from an inflammation of the knee joints. Efforts to straighten his legs caused unbearable pain. It was impossible for him to stand, much less walk. Early one morning he had a dream. A hierarch vested in white appeared to him and said, "Here, take my legs. I don't need them anymore. And give me yours." The boy woke up, miraculously healed. From a photograph he identified the hierarch in his dream as Bishop Jonah, who had died that very night, October 7/20, 1925."

Basically, I'd recommend deleting the article and starting again. Alternatively, the only things worth keeping would be the intro and categories. Thoughts? Malick78 (talk) 19:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I would not recommend deleting the entire article. There is no need to do so. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 19:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Even if there are lines here or there that come from the text translated by Vera Kencis, this text in this article is not a wholesale cut and paste from any article... and to fix your concerns, you would simply need to put those statements in quotes, and provide the footnote. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 19:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• You have a serious problem understanding copyright infringement. You are putting Wikipedia in a problematic position by doing so since they are the ones infringing Kencis' work. You also have a problem owning up to your mistake. Whole swathes of the text are word for word the same as the original. That you have left out the occasional phrase does not negate that fact. Putting quotation marks round it would be another abuse of the source material. Moreover, an encyclopaedic article should not rely on one source, which this does. Finally, you were seriously disingenuous putting 'Orthodoxwiki' as a second source when you wrote that article using Kencis' text as the only source. If the whole or majority of this article is stolen it has no credibility at all and must go until it is rewritten by someone else with higher values than yourself.

Another point that worries me, is that no one noticed these issues when the article was up for the DYK evaluation. People should really be more careful. Malick78 (talk) 21:55, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

If you look at my edit history, you will see that this article was the first article that I created, and this was very soon after I first began editing on wikipedia... so there is a lot that I didn't know about wikipedia policy at the time, and I did not yet know how to do proper footnotes. I listed Orthodoxwiki as a source, because that is where the article was first created, and in my edit summary I noted that I was importing it from Orthodoxwiki. In reverse, this is how Orthodoxwiki does it, when they take an article from Wikipedia. I assumed at the time it work the same way in both directions. I did list the page on my parish site as a source also, and it gives all the relevant sources at the very begining of the article. Vera Kencis did not compose this article, by the way, it was composed in Russian in the 1920's, and is public domain now. There is a link to the Russian text provided in the article. She did translate the text. The paragraph you cited as violating copy right was composed by myself, except for the portion I put into quotes. I release any copy right claim on my own work, and have provided proper reference to the rest. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 14:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• I have removed this because of copyvio by Frjohnwhiteford:

"Hieromonk Jonah was freed by the White Army, which was situated beyond the Ural Mountains. Having been quickly raised to the rank of igumen, he was assigned as the senior priest of the southern volunteer troops. With the army of Ataman Dutov, Fr. Jonah withdrew to the borders of Western China, being subjected to all kinds of hardships while crossing the Pamir cliffs, often forced to grab on to jagged ledges and the sparse shrubbery of the ice covered cliffs with wounded hands.".

This is blatant copyright violation from this site (copied content highlighted). According to Wikipedia:Copyright problems#What about fair use?

"Under guidelines for non-free content, brief selections of copyrighted text may be used, but only with full attribution and only when the purpose is to comment on or criticize the text quoted." (my bolding)

You are not commenting on the original text Frjohnwhiteford. You are stealing because you are lazy. It all has to be reworded. There is btw, you may be surprised to know, a whole commandment devoted to this issue. Please also reword all sentences you believe you may have lifted. Thanks. Malick78 (talk) 12:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. You see short quotes from other articles or books all the time, and when they are cited within a paragraph, and properly referenced, this is completely within the fair use rules of copy right... and this is just as valid a way of commenting on a quote is if one were to introduce it with "As it says in such and such..." or "As so and so states....", but rather than waste time arguing with you, I have reworded the text sufficiently to allow the removal of quotation marks. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 12:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

References

When did St. John of Shanghai make this statement?

In the edit summaries, the question was asked when St. John made the statement about St. Jonah that is quoted in the article. He was Bishop of Shanghai from 1934 to 1946... and so it would have been during that time. The point of the quote is to show that he was being spoken of as a saint in China during that time... and the fact that he was glorified as a saint in 1996 shows that his memory endured long after his repose. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 21:02, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

• The text (before I rephrased it) said Jonah's memory lived on, or something, and then used John's quote as corroboration. Are you saying his memory lived on for 21 years at the most? Please quote helpfully rather than trying to muddy the waters with this slight of hand. Malick78 (talk) 21:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

You are simply being contentious here. Obviously it lived on for more than 21 years, because here we are talking about him. He has been glorified as a saint by the Russian Orthodox Church. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 22:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Old Style Dates

Prior to the Bolshevik Revolution, Russia's civil calendar was the same as the Church calendar. St. Jonah reposed after the calendar change. In the Menaion or in a menologion, his feast would be listed under October 7th. You are not going to find the old calendar date listed for saints prior to the calendar change precisely because the date that is listed actually is the Julian Calendar date, rather than the Gregorian Calendar. You will see the Old Calendar date for Nicholas II of Russia, for example. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 20:52, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but Alexandra Fyodorovna (Alix of Hesse), his consort, isn't done like that. Most aren't. There is no consistent rule and it actually looks very messy and unreadable when coupled with the subject's name in Russian too. An intro should invite the reader in, not punch them in the famous with its unreadability (at the moment my eye skips over the first half of the line to the second). Most importantly, why give it so early? To 99% of readers it is unimportant, and they are our priority. By all means mention it later where it may be appropriate, and explain the Menaion issue too - and then readers will understand why it's important. It will actually be more effective that way. Btw, his feast day is October 20 in the info box - perhaps that would be an appropriate place to have the alternate date? In fact, that's actually what I would go for. Malick78 (talk) 07:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

OK, I put the old style date in the info box. Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 12:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

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