Talk:Jews and Christmas

i'm a little embarrassed and excited, to be honest...

... this is the first time I recall hearing about the chinese restaurant bit, and this is fascinating to me. I mean, I was raised orthodox, you'd think my famliy'd care to instill some jewish culture in me instead of just reading and translating texts—well, if I'm finding my judaism on wikipedia, that's just one more reason to be here. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 00:16, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

leek, I'd heard the joke about it, but the substance was new to me too. It's things like this that make me love this website, not to mention Judaism. ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 01:06, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

(: absolutely theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 01:08, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

a thought

we'll probably be working on this article for quite a while after, but I think we might have a version that we could submit to DYK within a couple of days, yeah? to get it in the christmas sets—i'd be proud of it regardless of whether we're really done or not. no pressure if you don't want to do that, of course theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 01:43, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

I was just wondering the same thing, theleekycauldron. I wouldn't want to run something rushed, and I've got some concerns about the US-centric state of the draft right now, but I can see a scenario where we have a DYK-ready article in time for the Christmas sets. My main concern would be that running a relatively weak version of the article now would remove the possibility of running it as a GA DYK at some point in the future when it might be much more complete. Let's see how things shape up, though. (I'll be mobile-only and almost entirely offwiki for a week starting in about 24 hours, but I'll be checking my watchlist intermittently, so I'll be reachable.) ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 02:16, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd say let's wait and see—it might be worth it to sacrifice a GA DYK later, but I agree that it wouldn't be if the article isn't in decent shape in time. Let's take stock in a couple days, we'll figure out where we're at. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 04:53, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

@Ezlev and Aerin17: Okay, so we're here at december 20th—taking stock of where we are, I'd say that we'd be in striking distance if we wanted to take it to DYK for christmas. I'm leaning towards no, though—it doesn't seem like this article has reached potential. On the other hand, it'd be a shame if we throw away this shot, but then never get the article to GA status. So, what do you both think? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 21:59, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree with all of that, theleekycauldron. I think GA status is within reach in the not-too-far future, though, so I definitely lean toward not pursuing DYK right now. Aerin? ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 22:18, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I've never taken an article to DYK or to GA, so I honestly have no idea how we're doing relative to those standards- or what the timeline is like for DYK, really. So I'll go with what you two think. Aerin17 (t • c) 00:14, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

@Ezlev and Aerin17: seems we've stalled for now. Any objections to me taking this to pagespace? theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 14:38, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

​A few - second background paragraph is incomplete, the see also section needs some links, and I’m not sure the lede quite follows the body as it stands right now. Other than that, though, no objections - I think the article is mainspace-ready and can always be further improved later. I’ll try to find time to address the issues I mentioned, unless one of you wants to :) ezlev (user/tlk/ctrbs) 15:37, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

"many American Jews view it as a Jewish counterpart to Christmas" misrepresents the article

> The Jewish holiday of Hanukkah, traditionally a minor one, is considered important in the modern United States because it occurs during the Christmas and holiday season; many American Jews view it as a Jewish counterpart to Christmas. Data suggest that Hanukkah's close temporal proximity to Christmas is what drives its modern popularity in the United States, and that American Jews may use Hanukkah to provide an alternative to Christmas for their children.

The cited reference is a study exploring the question if Chanukkah is responsive to Christmas. That is not the same as asking Jews if they view Chanukkah as a counterpart to Christmas. And the article does not conclude that "many American Jews view Chanukkah as a counterpart to Christmas".

As an example, an alternative to taking the bus is taking the train. Trains are not "counterparts" to buses, trains are alternatives. They are competition to buses. They do not have the same form, nor do they perform the same function.

https://web.stanford.edu/~leinav/pubs/EJ2010.pdf

> 4. Conclusions In this article we present evidence that is largely consistent with a story that the importance of Hanukkah among American Jews is driven by its proximity (in the time dimension) to Christmas, and that many American Jews use Hanukkah as a way to provide their children with an exciting alternative. Extrapolating this story out of the data, it may also explain why Hanukkah is such a popular and important holiday among Jews living in the US, even though it is a much less important Jewish holiday in Israel, where competition from Christmas is largely absent.

There is a solar system sized gap between "many believe" and "largely consistent with a story that"

I personally find this claim in the wiki grossly ignorant, offensive and a sign of terrible scholarship and editing, because the number one topic of discussion regarding Christmas and Jews amongst adult Jews is that Chanukkah is NOT a counterpart to Christmas at all. So if anyone at wiki wants to claim that, I think you need to post surveys of American Jews demonstrating that, and an article that discusses if Chanukkah is *response* to Christmas is a different study entirely.

Please change this. 107.3.134.101 (talk) 04:13, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

"because the number one topic of discussion regarding Christmas and Jews amongst adult Jews " Based on what source? Can you support your own claim? Dimadick (talk) 08:01, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Is This Original Research?

I note none of the sources cited actually addresses this topic- the relationship betwen Jewish people and Christmas. So the the article seems to me be an original synthesis and reads like an original essay. I am concerned it is original research, and not encyclopedic Jagmanst (talk) 04:52, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Removal of South Park episode by User:Tacyarg

The User:Tacyarg has deleted the South Park episode Mr. Hankey, the Christmas Poo from this article. That episode famously deals with Kyle's feeling of exclusion as a Jew at Christmastime. The User:Tacyarg has also plastered the following rather clueless message for me:

Hello, I'm Tacyarg. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions to Jews and Christmas have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Teahouse or the Help desk. Thanks. Tacyarg (talk) 16:03, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Could someone here please deal with this User? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.61.114.134 (talk) 16:44, 12 December 2023 (UTC)