Talk:Jessica Matten

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because she’s an actress in more than one popular television series available worldwide — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hildreth gazzard (talk • contribs) 12:05, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because important role model and cultural beacon for the First Nation people — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.167.28.3 (talk) 16:15, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Note on undeletion

In my view, no longer non-notable (which I don't know if she even was back in 2018). Anyway, undeleted. See my latest addition for context. Thank you. El_C 12:46, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Yee surname, Indigenous person claim

Please expand on the use of Yee surname and verify her claim to be an indigenous person. There have been several scandals around women who have claimed indigenous heritage in Canada that were found to be lying to gain notoriety. The Yee surname and lack of transparency around her father is quite suspect. 51.171.44.234 (talk) 22:38, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

A 7forward has claimed to be the subject (Jessica Matten) of the page and removed a reference to her Asian heritage. [7forward edits 05:30, 11 July 2022 ]. JamesManderberg (talk) 21:08, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Her mother reports that her Indigenous heritage comes from her grandfather. So either his mother lost his "Indian" status by marrying a non-status or through enfranchisement. That was resolved in the Indian Act Amendment of 1985, which was the year Jessica was born. It is more than likely she would have a home reserve community and a band if she was Cree/Ojibway through her grandfather. Métis does not mean mixed euro-indigenous, there are Métis members of Cree reserves like Cumberland House Cree Nation but that is extremely uncommon. Her mother claims to be from treaty 1 territory now living in Winnipeg according to her Lemon Cree website (which is now down). In treaty 1 aside from Peguis First Nation the other reserves are Ojibway. So her great-grandmother would have needed to be a band member who married a settler or non-indigenous person.

If this is correct then she ought likely to have status and would likely be claiming Peguis as her home community. The trouble is that in Treaty 1 there are many Métis communities that could have been claimed, but they would not really make her Ojibway/Cree. In this scenario claiming descent from Cuthbert Grant would be even more difficult.

Genealogical research is much more difficult for Ojbiway or Cree people, Métis have much better record keeping due to their schools, churches, and employment at Hudsons Bay Company.

If she can trace her heritage back to Cuthbert Grant and did have a grand-parent or great-grandparent from Peguis and could trace her roots in the Métis it means it is likely that this would go all the way back to 1871 before the Red River Rebellion of 1885.

Many Métis fought in and were removed from Manitoba lands as a result, relocating to Saskatchewan near Cree relatives. Many of the Cree-Métis people come from treaty 2 and up. Intermarriage with Ojibway was significantly slowed after 1885. This would mean that her great-great-grandparents were mixed and if this is the case it is starting to look like what we call "Communing with the dead" in which someone becomes Indigenous by finding a long-lost ancestor.

While Métis people have a good relationship with Ukrainians they have mostly intermarried with Scottish or French.

Red River Métis people don't really participate in pow wows, like her and her mother. The Métis sometimes attend pow wows but often do a Métis jig. It would have been very atypical in her mother's time if she was Métis. This is also a red flag.

https://indiancountrytoday.com/archive/canadas-pocahontas-theresa-ducharme-is-a-powerhouse

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Goulet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peguis_First_Nation JamesManderberg (talk) 23:08, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

In a deleted Instagram post recorded by the Mindful Rambler Jessica is quoted as saying;

I’m mainly speaking Swampy Cree and also Ojibway to reflect Sokanon’s eclectic upbringing, born an Ojibway woman but raised amongst Métis, Cree, Scottish, French people on Turtle Island [North America] …

https://themindfulrambler.ca/tag/sokanon/ JamesManderberg (talk) 20:27, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

"At Harp’s side in Black Wolf Company is skilled and strategic tracker Sokanon, played by Matten, who is mixed Métis/Saulteaux-Cree, and spent a lot of time at the Maskwacis reserve south of Edmonton."

She does not mention family or membership in this community which is a Cree reserve.

https://edmontonjournal.com/entertainment/television/edmonton-born-actress-brings-edge-to-fur-trade-history-drama-frontier JamesManderberg (talk) 20:36, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Not Asian

Yes, her father is part Chinese and part British according ti [1]. Other sources say indigenous and Red River Metis-Cree [2] But whatever we can't call her Asian and the source used didn't call her Asian. Doug Weller talk 14:28, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

China is not part of Asia? JamesManderberg (talk) 06:36, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

So is India. Doug Weller talk 10:21, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Wait are you saying that the first nations drum is not a reputable source...? She is credited on IMDB as played Asian girl 2 on Footsteps Into Gangland as Jessica Yee.

https://m.imdb.com/name/nm3906656/filmotype/actress JamesManderberg (talk) 06:45, 1 August 2022 (UTC)

Paternal Heritage

{{BLP noticeboard}} Morbidthoughts

Métis is not mixed Cree-Ojibway. Saultreux are Ojibway people, specifically plains based. It is literally one source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A9tis https://indiancountrytoday.com/archive/canadas-pocahontas-theresa-ducharme-is-a-powerhouse JamesManderberg (talk) 22:10, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Focus on sources about Matten; not Ducharme. Wikipedia is not meant to be ancestry.com. Morbidthoughts (talk) 22:16, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

It seems like you have an agenda, I have asked for the page to be protected. Ancestry is normative for Indigenous peoples on Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Latimer JamesManderberg (talk) 00:59, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

You must gain consensus to reinstate your edits per WP:BLPRESTORE rather than justify reinstatement as WP:ITSIMPORTANT and cast aspersions. Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:29, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Then why do you keep removing her mother? I am not accusing your without evidence you have failed to address this criticism. I will apologizing for the format of past statement regarding editorializing but I do see the continued deletion of something potentially embarrassing but true as a bias. The entire Lemon Cree website has recently gone down, so I am concerned.

Morbidthoughts JamesManderberg (talk) 05:17, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Her mother's name was removed because the cited and strongest sources, the Elle and Edmonton Journal articles do not name her mother. The article you cited from TribalTVSeries is a press release and not an reliable source. Her entire article has sourcing problems, but the specific issue of her heritage was brought up by a Wikipedia administrator on the BLP Noticeboards.[3] That's why outside editors have intervened on this. If you continue to edit war after your block expires rather than obtain consensus for your edits, you will be blocked for longer periods. Morbidthoughts (talk) 08:01, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Furthermore, I am concerned that the sources for Jessica's indigenous heritage are self-reported and the article with her mother reporting is given less credence than self-reported sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JamesManderberg (talk • contribs) 01:16, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

You are supposed to focus on sources that discuss Matten; not one that solely discusses her mother. By inserting that Matten is Ukrainian from a source about her mother, you are committing WP:Synthesis. I also do not understand why you removed Red River Metis when the cited Elle article states she is of Red River Metis-Cree descent.[4] and the cited Edmonton Journal article states she is "mixed Métis/Saulteaux-Cree".[5] Morbidthoughts (talk) 03:34, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Only if it is formatted improperly. WP:Synthesis. I think that it could be formatted in a way that would satisfy the terms. JamesManderberg (talk) 05:25, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Is it reasonable to add her grandfather's name to the Wiki?

@Morbidthoughts can you give me advice on an edit?

This is a link to the actress's Grandfather Edward Hein. She is listed as Jessica Yee and it mentions her brother Christopher and her mother Theresa who also went by Theresa Ducharme-Hein in the 90's.

[6]EDWARD https://passages.winnipegfreepress.com/passage-details/id-252505/HEIN_EDWARD

Her mother is mentioned in the Windspeaker under this name.

[7]https://www.windspeaker.com/index.php/windspeaker-back-issues-1986-2015/windspeaker-july-5-1991

In the Canadian Pocahontas article her mother is reported as "Born a Metis in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Ducharme's father was Cree-Ojibwe, her mother Ukranian."

https://ictnews.org/archive/canadas-pocahontas-theresa-ducharme-is-a-powerhouse

Her grandfather's brother seems to be Mennonite/Lutheran. Metis are historically Catholic and Menonitees are not known to intermarry and her mother has already stated that her grandmother was Ukrainian.

[8]https://www.doylesfuneralhome.ca/obituaries/2009/505-hein-herman-albert

Menonitees and Interacial Marriage:https://gameo.org/index.php?title=Intermarriage

Combining these primary reputable sources would still be synthesis, but adding her grandfather's name seems relevant and based on a single source.

Is it reasonable to add her grandfather's name to the Wiki?

It is a primary source and is relevant as seen in D'Pharaoh Woon-A-Tai's wikipedia page. He is an Indigenous actor from Canada and direct links to Indigenous communities are relevant culturally. It seems like it would be an acceptable thing to do and a consistent standard with other pages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Pharaoh_Woon-A-Tai

It is a reliable source, it is a primary source from a mainstream newspaper and a first-person account as it is published by the family themselves.

Thoughts? JamesManderberg (talk) 20:28, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

What I don't see, personally, is any indication that this information is WP:DUE. Does her grandfather or her relationship thereto show up in any reliable sources? For me, you would have to show that people have taken note of this relationship before I would say it belongs in the article. That said, if consensus is against me, so be it. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 20:31, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Can you elaborate on my position regarding Indigenous protocol? Family connections to the Indigenous community are considered universally and culturally relevant. It seems to be a majority viewpoint that has consensus. The majority of wiki pages for Indigenous performers consider grandparents to be relevant.

There are many examples of this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamara_Podemski

What do you think? JamesManderberg (talk) 22:24, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

So, culturally relevant is different than WP:DUE on Wikipedia, which is largely about coverage of the matter in reliable (mostly secondary) sources. The example you gave gives reliable sources linking the person to her relatives. I am not seeing that here, as you note, this strikes me largely as WP:SYNTH. Ideally, you could point to a newspaper article or some such, saying "her grandfather came from X ethnicity and Y religion." That doesn't mean other people will agree, or that there aren't sources out there, but I personally don't see them here. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 23:10, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't think WP:SYNTH would apply, it is a single primary source. Is the issue the name change?

Another question I have is about the name Yee. This link correlates with her family history, biography and resume.

http://www.firstnationsdrum.com/2011/03/jessica-yee-positive-beauty/

It is kind of complicated when folk change their names. How do you list that? Should you list that?

Is that the synth because it is a complicated question. JamesManderberg (talk) 05:29, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Again, you are not showing me that reliable sources took any notice of this. We're talking about both WP:SYNTH and WP:OR, I think. While your sources look pretty good to me in an absolute sense, I also feel they fail WP:NPOV in that they're not a view that appears anywhere in reliable secondary sources (so far as I can tell). Others might well disagree with me! You might consider asking at WP:BLPN for more opinions. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 13:40, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. It is a matter of debate as you said, but since I have you here. What about the name change? JamesManderberg (talk) 21:02, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I also don't think that's enough to go on; we don't know if this represents a legal name, a modeling alias she used for some time, or something else. Again, I think you've found interesting information here, but for me, it would need better sourcing on Wikipedia, which is naturally going to be conservative (not in a political sense) about information. There is always going to be a lot more true about a subject than is appropriate here. But, as ever, if you can convince a few other people (potentially even one other), then you don't have to worry about my qualms. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 21:07, 26 January 2023 (UTC)