Talk:Hetmans of Ukrainian Cossacks

Ivan Pidkova = Ioan Potcoavă

Ivan Pidkova was a Moldavian Prince under the name "Ioan Potcoavă". Please, don't change his name on that page: most sources mention him as such, and note that he claimed to be a voivode's brother (and thus Moldavian/Romanian in name). I cited the Ukrainian variant, and linked the article to here. Could you please add the uk: category on the bottom of the page? I can't spell his name in Cyrilic. Thanks. Dahn 06:06, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Proverb?

"Где два украинца, там три гетьмана" Any comments about this proverb? `'mikka (t) 01:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, therefore Mazepa lost the Battle of Poltava to Russians. That is a good proverb even though seems to be as an offensive one. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 22:18, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The proverb hyperbolizes a known longing of many Ukrainians to be a chief commander. --Nazar Saman (talk) 11:46, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Tymofiy Orendarenko

Was Tymofiy Orendarenko a hetman? See Talk:Taras Fedorovych.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Hryhoriy Chorny

Shouldn't Hryhoriy Chorny be added to the list here?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  14:21, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Rename

How about renaming the article to List of Hetmans of Dnieper Cossacks? While at it, please see the issues I raised at the template's talk. --Irpen 03:32, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree.--Kuban Cossack 11:03, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Please do this the way you are supposed to. Ostap 00:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Since you disagree with the move, why don't you offer to move the article back using RM, instead of reverting, like you are NOT supposed to? --Kuban Cossack 07:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

This is very original. Someone renames the article in violation of WP:RM, and when others protest he asks them to use the procedure he himself ignored! --Hillock65 (talk) 11:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Well let's see this artilce is not often used, I don't think its neither on your or Ostap's watchlist, neither of you have ever edited it in the past. (this comes to mind). Anyhow for four days since my move noone has raised a single voice, that kind of defeats the point of WP:RM. Then along comes Ostap, and despite not being an admin reverts again with no WP:RM, mind you doing so prior to putting an entry on the talk page. So anyhow:--Kuban Cossack 12:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to support move. JPG-GR (talk) 05:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Hetmans of Ukrainian Cossacks → Hetmans of Dnieper Cossacks — Per Irpen's arguments here in short:

“ Firstly, are we talking about the Hetmans of the Dnieper Cossacks only? The title suggests the wider scope and calls for Pavlo Skoropadsky and even Viktor Yushchenko to be included. For obvious reasons, these two relatively modern Ukrainian leaders do not belong to the same template as Orlyk and Doroshenko.

There is, however, a deeper issue best exemplified in Taras Fedorovych who I respect a whole lot but still... He was proclaimed hetman by the unregistered cossacks. Does it make him a hetman unquestionably enough for a template?

”

— Kuban Cossack 12:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support, the usage of the term Ukrainian here is as vague as it can get. Some of the hetmans were Poles, some were Russians, moreover in ethnical terms the Cossacks were never regarded as Ukrainian, but as Dnieper or Zaporozhian. --Kuban Cossack 12:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose The term Ukrainian does not refer to nationality but to a geography. These were Cossacks from Ukraine as opposed to Cossacks from Zaporizhia. What is more important, is the fact that the term Ukrainian Cossacks is well established in historiographic literature and had almost twice the number of publications with this name then the proposed change. [1][2] Thus, it is evident that the present name of the article is generally accepted among historians and is widely used. There is no need for the move. --Hillock65 (talk) 12:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose In terms of geography, Ukraine is much better known than Dnieper for the general reader. Also, my google search showed 48,200 hits for "Ukrainian cossacks" [3] and 2,710 for "Dnieper cossacks" [4] - not even close. Googlescholar showed 420 for "Ukrainian cossacks [5] versus only 50 for Dnieper cossacks [6]. Google books shows the closest results - about 650 for Ukrainian cossacks versus 450 for Dnieper cossacks. I know that google results fluctuate with time, but the difference is so large that I can't imagine Dnieper even coming close. I'm not against placing Skoropadsky on the list, either, although Yushchenko would be ridiculous.Faustian (talk) 13:08, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

  The problem is placing Skoropadsky on the list is as dubious as adding all of the Kievan Rus rulers to the List of Russian rulers. Or for that fact renaming Kievan Rus to Kievan Russia. --Kuban Cossack (По-балакаем?) 13:21, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

That is a good point. On the other hand, if the Russian tsars had referred to themselves and were primarily known as Kniazi of Kiev then perhaps their inclusion in the same list as Yaroslav the Wise would make sense. But I don't feel as strongly about Skoropadsky as I do about Ukrainian Cossacks.Faustian (talk) 13:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose, as seen below the term Ukrainian cossacks was clearly used already in the early 1700s. So Hetmans of Ukrainian Cossacks would be an accurate title for the article, and for most readers it would also be more understandable. And BTW the Swedish officers also wrote about Zaporozhian Cossacks (who in the end were the ones that supported Mazepa). Narking (talk) 16:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose Irpen's year-old argument is about a different title (“Hetmans of Ukraine”) for a template which appears in a completely different context (I hope you checked with him before you used this as sole justification for this request).

  Neither Skoropadsky's Hetmanate nor Yushchenko's Ukraine is in danger of being mistaken for Ukrainian Cossacks. Subtelny uses the term, and even defines hetman as “highest military, administrative, and judicial office among Ukrainian Cossacks” (p 650). Magocsi uses the term too, but only attributively—I am speculating that he may be using Ukrainian here as a geographic but not ethnic reference, but that makes no difference to this argument. Neither author uses “Dnieper Cossack(s)”. —Michael Z. 2008-07-16 21:35 z

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• • Why strongly? There is no doubt that the term Ukrainian Cossacks is used, just like there are people who call these people as Ukrainian rather than Ruthenian rulers. The point is that Zaporozhian Cossacks are not titled Ukrainian Cossacks per WP:NC, moreoever as your Google books shows the Ukrainian Cossack term is only by a fraction bigger than that of Dnieper Cossacks. Thirdly the definition of Ukraine as a historical region is also obscure, for example you well know that the Zaporozhian Sich was not part of the Hetmanate. Fourthly, the title Hetman of Ukraine could mean latter examples like Skoropadsky. In short there are more problems with the title Ukrainian Cossacks than Dnieper Cossacks.--Kuban Cossack (По-балакаем?) 12:52, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

To begin with, please use the discussion section if you have anything to say, that's what it is for. Strongly, because the move plainly doesn't make sense. 1). Again, Ukrainian has nothing to with nationality. 2) Ukrainian Cossacks in book publications exceeds by 700 publications the proposed change, this is a substantial number. 3) Definition of Ukraine as a region is obscure only to Russian imperialists looking for every exuse to get rid of the name. 4) There are no reasons to necessitate the move from a well established title to the one with questionable pupularity. I am yet to see any intelligent reasoning to the opposite. --Hillock65 (talk) 13:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

1)If that was the case then there would not be a problem, however alas, Ukrainian has multiple meanings, and it equally makes little sense. 2) Pupularity? Well that was never a criterion for naming convention, considering that a majority of 700 is not really a majority when put percentage wise. One thing is 1000:1 another is 3:2 which we have here 3)The namings of the Cossacks, who never called themselves Ukrainian are clear to all but the Ukrainian chauvinists who are looking for every excuse to privatise history. 4) Indeed there is every reason to move a title that is as questionable and dubious as this one, to one that has still gained no actual questions, and that is equally found in literature and has been widely applied here in Wikipedia. --Kuban Cossack (По-балакаем?) 13:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

At least the Swedish officers that entered Ukraine in 1708 wrote in their diaries that when Mazepa entered the Swedish headquarters he brought some "distinguished Ukrainian cossacks" with him. So the term was apparently in use at that time. Narking (talk) 14:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Is that "oppose" in the survey section above? --Hillock65 (talk) 15:49, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move again

What about a move to Hetmans of Cossacks, or Cossack Hetmans? Is there a need to disambiguate with "Ukrainian"? Where there hetmans of non-Ukrainian Cossacks? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:48, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

None of non-Ukrainian Cossacks used the title Hetman. However, during 1649-1734 Hetman was the title of the ruler of the half-independent Ukrainian state, who was at the same time the chief commander of the Cossak army. So the proper name of the article will be "Ukrainian Hetmans".--Nazar Saman (talk) 11:17, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Marek Zhmaylo

Why is he not listed here? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:24, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Page move without consensus

Where is the discussion regarding moving this page from Hetmans of Ukrainian Cossacks to Hetmans of Zaporizhian Cossacks, Ушкуйник? In fact, it's not even grammatically correct in the English language (i.e., it would have to be Hetmans of the Zaporizhian Cossacks to be correct). If you care to check the discussions on this talk page, there has been an RM in the past to change this article WP:TITLE from "Hetmans of Ukrainian Cossacks to Hetmans of Dnieper Cossacks". Furthermore, the convention would be Hetmans of the Zaporozhian Cossacks (as in Zaporozhian Cossacks as opposed to Zaporizhian Sich).

You've done to the same to "Rosumovskyi" via WP:OR in moving "Rozumovsky" to "Rasumofsky".

These are not bold moves but WP:POINTy moves in light of your involvement in refactoring content for the Kyrylo Rozumovskyi article, content in Cossack Hetmanate, and any article revolving around the history of Ukraine and historically notable Ukrainian people. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:24, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

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