Talk:Hellé Nice

Untitled

Is it useful to notice somewhere that that Philippe de Rothschild was of Jewish origins ? Ericd 17:08, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 02:26, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Racing is Hellé

"five major Grands Prix in France"? In one year? Or 5yrs? Or 5 major races to a voiturette formula? Or what? TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 20:34, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

As for the Italian GP, this site & this site both agree she wasn't entered. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 01:05, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Indeed she wasn't entered in the 1933 Italian GP, which ran on the combined Monza track in the morning of 10th Sept, but she was entered in the Monza GP which ran in the afternoon on the banked track only. She finished last in her heat and the shortened final, both of her races suffering fatalities. The link is to the wrong GP. see this site Kletzmer (talk) 14:39, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Movie

Is there a movie about her called The Devil's Trampoline?70.53.51.120 (talk) 16:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

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WikiProject Women in Green is holding a month-long Good Article Editathon event in June 2023!

Hello Hellé Nice:

WikiProject Women in Green is holding a month-long Good Article Editathon event in June 2023!

Running from June 1 to 30, 2023, WikiProject Women in Green (WiG) is hosting a Good Article (GA) editathon event – Wildcard Edition! Participants are invited to work on nominating and/or reviewing GA submissions related to any and all women and women's works during the event period. Want to improve an article about a Bollywood actress? Go for it. A pioneering female climate scientist? Absolutely. An award-winning book or film by a woman? Yes! GA resources and one-on-one support will be provided by experienced GA editors, and participants will have the opportunity to receive a special WiG barnstar for their efforts.

We hope to see you there!

Mujinga (talk) 16:03, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

I'm hoping to get this article to GA quality by the end of June Mujinga (talk) 21:33, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Well done for taking on the rewrite of this article. Without wishing to make your task any more difficult, please however exercise caution in the extent to which you use Miranda Seymour's book as a source - much of what she has written is unverified/unverifiable speculation, not evidenced fact (as the author herself acknowledges in the "Author's Note" at the beginning and in the "Notes" at the back of the book). As well as some of the alleged affairs, a specific example of this speculation is the supposed argument between Helle Nice and de Courcelles/Mongin regarding the "men only" 1921 race at Brooklands - Seymour herself describes the entire visit (which must include the supposed "argument") as "speculatively described" (see Note 5 to Chapter 4), i.e. "made up". Good luck! JamesHT1967 (talk) 12:03, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes absolutely, a lot of Seymour's imagined situations do seem rather speculative so at the moment I'm using the biography to draw out the chronology before delving into other sources to confirm things, probably newspapers from the time (recent coverage seems to draw on Seymour as fact). As just one example, do you know anything about the 1936 'L'affaire de Menton' concerning import duty fraud? So right now the article is definitely top-heavy on Seymour, feel free to get involved if you spot anything fantastical to chop out. Collaboration would be welcome, this is quite far from my area of expertise and I'm just coming to the end of another editing session now. I shouldn't need to use the inuse template much longer since the structure is nearly there (I hope). Thanks for the comment! Mujinga (talk) 12:48, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I will take a look - perhaps once you've settled at least the structure. I'm afraid I don't have any specific information about the import duty fraud, though I can certainly have a look in some of the French journals I use for source material to see what I can find. Meanwhile, keep up the good work! JamesHT1967 (talk) 19:31, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

@JamesHT1967 I'm stopping here for now - interested in your thoughts on the freshly added career highlights table. Plus I wonder if there's a French dictionary of biography she might have an entry in? Cheers Mujinga (talk) 19:47, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I put in a request at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Resource_Exchange/Resource_Request#Classic_and_Sports_Car_magazine for Mick Walsh, 'One Hellé of a Girl' in Classic and Sports Car (June 1997) Mujinga (talk) 10:05, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

I added in info from Walsh then decided to nominate for GA Mujinga (talk) 14:25, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Well done, I'm afraid I haven't had a chance to sit down and look at the new version yet, but will do so in the next few days. My only general observation regarding the table of results is that I am not sure any other racing driver has anything in this format - usually a race career is divided up into racing categories (e.g. Formula 1, Le Mans 24 hours, Indianapolis 500, etc), each with its own table; but I appreciate that the variety in HN's career might make this difficult. I believe the US events were largely demonstrations, while (e.g.) the Actors' Championship, although a competition, was in reality little more than a celebrity auto-test (driving around obstacles, etc) rather than a race. I will think further however and give proper feedback. JamesHT1967 (talk) 17:45, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi @JamesHT1967 thanks for that comment. I'm 100% not tied to the current table format, so feel free to change it if you like. I did have a look around at various other racing driver articles to see what format to use and at least for the ones linked from this article, there seems to be a lot of variation. I did however copy the format from somewhere (that's why it is Racing record / Career highlights) but now of course I can't find the article I used as a template, the closest I got was Robert Brunet. Mujinga (talk) 19:57, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Hellé Nice/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: BritneyErotica (talk · contribs) 17:15, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	"In 1949, driver Louis Chiron accused Nice of being a Gestapo agent during World War II, without providing any evidence. This claim disrupted her planned career revival, and her partner subsequently left her." Avoid puffery, consider "In 1949, driver Louis Chiron accused Nice of being a Gestapo agent during World War II, without providing any evidence. This claim disrupted her planned career revival, and her partner subsequently left her." sorry what's the difference? Mujinga (talk) 21:35, 1 September 2023 (UTC) I've reworded but want to keep the notion that Chiron is a big name since his denunciation without evidence ruined her career Mujinga (talk) 14:07, 4 September 2023 (UTC) "She travelled to England with Courcelles and Mongin in 1921, the two men planning to race Grégoire cars at the Brooklands circuit; the cars were not delivered and Delangle argued with her friends because the race was for men only." Unsure what this sentence is trying to convey. Consider rewording it. yes that could be clearer, rewritten Mujinga (talk) 21:35, 1 September 2023 (UTC) Rework this sentence (Should there be a full stop before "She"?): "Her first appearance was in Woodbridge, She was immediately christened the "Speedbowl Queen", gaining a sponsorship deal with Esso." rejigged Mujinga (talk) 21:40, 1 September 2023 (UTC) Reword and reference (avoid plummeted) "She was too shocked to reply and afterwards her reputation plummeted" rewritten Mujinga (talk) 21:40, 1 September 2023 (UTC) "Despite the accusations not being proven" consider "Despite the accusations failing to be proven" rewritten Mujinga (talk) 21:40, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	Links appropriately archived.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	Feedback above. Also I recommend avoiding 4 inline citations for a single sentence "enquiries at the German Federal Archives in Berlin yielded no record of Nice having been a collaborator.". Perhaps these references could be distributed better. Likewise the first paragraph in Final years and death could do with having an inline citation in the middle of it as there are 3 sentences without one which generally is too many. I'm not quite sure what you mean here since every paragraph should be cited but not every sentence. To take In 1949, the esteemed racing driver Louis Chiron accused her of being a Gestapo agent in the war, at a party in Monaco to celebrate the first postwar Monte Carlo Rally. She was too shocked to reply at the time and she was later ostracised. Her biographer Miranda Seymour considers what the evidence could have been: a connection to Fritz Huschke von Hanstein did not prove problematic for fellow driver Anne Itier, who was known to have had an affair with him; in Nice's archives, Seymour found a picture of German General of the Cavalry Manfred von Richthofen, who had written to Nice in 1936 after her accident in Brazil, but no further link could be found; enquiries at the German Federal Archives in Berlin yielded no record of Nice having been a collaborator.[25][24][26][27] the four references are being used for this whole paragrpah not just for "enquiries at the German Federal Archives in Berlin yielded no record of Nice having been a collaborator" Mujinga (talk) 21:43, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
	2c. it contains no original research.
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	Copyvios looks good.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.

Overall

• Thanks for taking on the review, I'll hope to make a start on the replies later today Mujinga (talk) 10:37, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

@BritneyErotica I've made some replies, back to you Mujinga (talk) 21:43, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

I quoted my proposed rewrite by accident in the first piece of feedback. I believe I was referring to this section "In 1949, the esteemed racing driver Louis Chiron accused her of being a Gestapo agent in the war, at a party in Monaco to celebrate the first postwar Monte Carlo Rally. She was too shocked to reply at the time and she was later ostracised" where it could be clearer with what's being conveyed and also avoids "esteemed" which should generally avoided.

Thanks I see no and made the adjustment Mujinga (talk) 14:12, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

You're correct that inline citations do not have to reference every sentence when in a paragraph. This is supported through WP:CITEDENSE. However my feedback refers to WP:CITEKILL, where "...more than three should generally be avoided; if four or more are needed, consider bundling (merging) the citations." BritneyErotica (talk) 14:02, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

OK great that makes more sense, although I do think it's hard for me to udertsand that when at first you said "Also I recommend avoiding 4 inline citations for a single sentence". WP:CITEDENSE and WP:CITEKILL are not guidelines, whereas WP:CITEBUNDLE is and it says "sometimes".. I think I'd rather keep the four refs as they are to be honest and I don't think it's a GA requirement to change them. My rationale is that this is a quite complex issue and I'd like to show i'm using a range of sources to summarise the view that Chiron's allegations do not appear to have been based in fact Mujinga (talk) 14:12, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

It's definitely favourable but not a guideline as you say. While the mentioned sentence isn't a run-on sentence, it is still quite lengthy. Nonetheless I won't necessarily hold you for this minor change as it's quite cosmetic and the sentence still reads well as the multiple clauses are properly connected. I also do prefer "well-known" instead of "esteemed" as it appears more neutral and still places emphasis on the point being made.

I can see you have extensive experience with writing on Wikipedia and it definitely shows so I'm happy to pass this. BritneyErotica (talk) 18:58, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Best finish in infobox?

Is it needed? It seems very subjective for a driver who took part in a wide variety of disciplines(Grand Prix, rallying, hillclimbs, gymkhana, etc), at various levels, in both mixed gender and women-only events. Normally the "best finish" entry is used for listing the best finish in a particular championship. SunflowerYuri (talk) 13:17, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@SunflowerYuri that's a fair point - looking at the other winners listed at Rallye Paris – Saint-Raphaël Féminin, Betty Haig has it under "wins" in her infobox, would that be better? or feel free to delete it if you think that's best Mujinga (talk) 15:29, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, both would be better, although I don't really know what's best. The issue with a "wins" column is that choosing which ones to pick is going to be subjective too.

By the way, I am confused by the Mont Ventoux hillclimb victory listed in career highlights. Rudolf Caracciola won outright in 1931, and Hellé-Nice is not mentioned in the results in Motorsport Magazine and Euromontagna, and her participation is not mentioned in Seymour's book, although Motorsport Memorial lists her as having finished in 2nd in class strangely.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/october-1931/22/the-mont-ventoux-hill-climb/

http://www.euromontagna.com/results.php?id_race=5208&lng=1

http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/LWFWIW/focusLWFWIW.php?db=LWF&db2=ms&n=1055 SunflowerYuri (talk) 13:35, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Glad we resolved the best finish issue. Hmm yes the Ventoux sources are confusing. I have all the sources to refer to except "Walsh, Mick (June 1997). "One Hellé of a girl". Classic & Sports Car. No. 16." - which is the one referencing "Mont Ventoux hillclimb 1st 1931". That source was a real pain to find, I'll have to do some more digging to see where I saved it, although since we already have a clear winner in 1931 maybe the entry should just be deleted. Maybe she won an exhibition or the womens race or a timetrial, I'm really not sure, but as you say the outright winner was clearly Caracciola.

Seymour is the ref for "2nd in 1934" .. Motorsport Memorial says she finished "second in class in the Mont Ventoux hillclimb" in 1932, but it also says her gender is male ... maybe safer just to delete the 1934 entry as well. Mujinga (talk) 16:45, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

I misread the Motorsport Memorial source, my bad. I was not able to find the 1934 Ventoux results after a few searches, but the race time Seymour lists is over 3 minutes slower than overall winner Hans Stuck, which means it was likely some kind of class result, not an overall result.

Anyway, thanks for your work on the article, you did a great job with it! SunflowerYuri (talk) 20:27, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for helping to improve it! I'll remove the Ventoux refs from the table, that seems best. Mujinga (talk) 21:35, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi - apologies, but I just haven't had the time to look at article this since our exchange elsewhere on this page last summer. I can however give you the details of the Ventoux Hill Climb on 16 September 1934, in which Helle Nice (Alfa Romeo) finished 2nd in the over 2-litre Sports Car class in 16m 43.2s behind Renato Balesrero (Alfa Romeo) who set a class record of 16m 16.0s. Stuck (Auto-Union) meanwhile was the overall winner and winner of over 2-litre Racing Car class in an absolute hill record of 13m 38.6s (nearly a minute faster than the previous best). Which all probably means you won't include this in the table, but I hope it helps! JamesHT1967 (talk) 08:50, 30 January 2024 (UTC)