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[[Category:Motorsports Hall of Fame of America inductees]] up for deletionEdit

See Motorsports Hall of Fame of America. 7&6=thirteen () 17:46, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Category Discussion 7&6=thirteen () 17:48, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Ill-informed adminEdit

Reporting @Drmies: to the project for making ill-informed changes to drivers, particularly those in 2019 W Series. Namely changes regarding removing flags from the infobox (as is seen at Stoffel Vandoorne, Robin Frijns, Jamie Whincup, Ryan Hunter-Reay, Norbert Michelisz, etc.) and removing linked content for personal reasons.

@SSSB, Mclarenfan17, Falcadore, Kytabu, DH85868993, Ivaneurope, Willsome429, and RewF12012: Tagging some active editors as this talk page can be a little quiet sometimes. Holdenman05 (talk) 22:52, 7 May 2019 (UTC)

This is not the first time this admin has been pushing their personal agenda with regards to flags. I've seen them do this to a F1 article, which resulted in this and this discussion in favor of the flagicons.Tvx1 14:50, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Categories by nationalityEdit

Why only Formula One and IndyCar has their categories by nationality (Category:Brazilian Formula One drivers, Category:Brazilian IndyCar Series drivers)? Is it allowed to make same categories for other series? Eurohunter (talk) 08:48, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Eurohunter, I have no objections for you to do this to other series so long as they are limited to only the most important racing series and the drivers aren't predominatly from one nation. ie don't make one for F2 (not a major racing series) or NASCAR (99% Americans). Really these sorts of categories should be kept for only the biggest and most widly known racing series. I would probably only add nation specific categories for world edurance championship and mabye World rally championship and leave it at that. SSSB (talk) 10:19, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

Yuji Ide 1999Edit

In his article, in Complete Super GT results gives as runner-up of All Japan GT Championship GT300, but in Racing record it does not say anything of that year. Please fix that error. Thanks. --Adriel 00 (talk) 03:50, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Actually, you can do it yourself. That's the beauty of Wikipedia.Tvx1 10:57, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Totals rows in driver career summary tablesEdit

An editor has added "Totals" rows to Charles_Leclerc#Career_summary and Lance_Stroll#Career_summary. Do we think these are helpful/useful? My concern is that the numbers may be incorrect/misleading if the career summary table doesn't list a driver's complete career. Thoughts? DH85868993 (talk) 22:15, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

They're out of line. Total points from totally different series with their own unique point structure? Completely useless. The359 (Talk) 00:14, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Not relevant at all. Stats from different series have nothing to do with each other. This would only be usefull if you add up stats from the same World Championship/Series like this. As far as I know we don't have this kind of situation in car racing. Jahn1234567890 (talk) 22:09, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
Jahn1234567890 first we have got something like that in the World Endurance Championship. However I am not concerned by Jahn1234567890 nor The359's comment but the fact that these results tables never show a drivers complete career, only their most notable seasons/participations. Therefore these rows are simply incorrect and if we correct them it would mean adding rows from series that are completely unnotable. SSSB (talk) 07:30, 20 June 2019 (UTC)
Both "Totals" rows have now been removed. DH85868993 (talk) 21:55, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

"WDC" and "TD"Edit

Note: at the time this discussion was started, the abbreviation "WDC" in the heading of George Russell's F1 results table did not have a tooltip. A tooltop has since been added. DH85868993 (talk) 22:46, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Interested in a driver I've not heard of, I looked at George_Russell_(racing_driver)#Complete_Formula_One_results. His race by race record includes unexplained abbreviations that I couldn't understand. As well as the ones I mention in the header, there are others from other seasons. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:38, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

"TD" stands for "(Friday) Test Driver" - this is explained in the table key which is linked just above the table; "WDC" stands for "World Drivers' Championship (position)" - this could probably use a tooltip in the column heading (in fact the WP:F1 standard table format says there should be one). DH85868993 (talk) 14:57, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
The key just says "(Races in bold indicate pole position; races in italics indicate fastest lap)" Doesn't mention these abbreviations. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 21:05, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
@Dweller: that's because (key) is wikilinled to a wider more detailed key on a subpage where all the abbreviations are listed. I've been thinking for some time now that this design needs to be revisited for this very reason. It was also confusing for me at one point but I keep forgetting to chase it up. SSSB (talk) 21:17, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Yes, that is confusing. You can't see the key and the table at the same time and "WDC" isn't there anyway. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 21:18, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
We had discussions back in 2007 and 2009 regarding the idea of transcluding the key (i.e. so it could be seen at the same time as the table) rather than linking it, but consensus was never reached. DH85868993 (talk) 21:45, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
Would transcluding the key in a collapsible format (and collapsed by default) be an option.Tvx1 11:04, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
We got a fair way down that path in the 2007 discussion but never reached final agreement on the formatting. The idea was raised again in the 2009 discussion but one editor pointed out that MOS:COLLAPSE states that "Collapsible templates should not conceal article content by default upon page loading". DH85868993 (talk) 13:05, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
I think it's time to sort it out. If you'd like input from someone who self-evidently has interest but no expertise in the topic, drop me a line. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:11, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
@DH85868993: I don't think MOS:COLLAPSE applies here as we aren't concealing article content but rather the key which helps editors interpret article content which is different. The content we plan on concealing isnt currently in the article at all. I therefore have to agree with Tvx1's proposal. SSSB (talk) 19:20, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
Should we seek opinion/clarification at WT:MOS? I'm in favour of the collapsible key, but I'm keen to avoid a situation where we update thousands of articles, only for the changes to later be reverted. DH85868993 (talk) 22:52, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Definitly. We should probably put in a RfC here and then advertise the RfC at WT:MOS. SSSB (talk) 14:10, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Does "DC" or other "xC" need explanations also? None of the motorsport articles explain those actually. Pelmeen10 (talk) 16:33, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

They probably do (ugh, that's going to be a big job). DH85868993 (talk) 22:13, 26 June 2019 (UTC)
Couldn't we just include them in the key? SSSB (talk) 14:11, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Kenelm Lee GuinnessEdit

Hello, I've posed a question on Talk:Kenelm Lee Guinness regarding his country of birth and nationality, and would appreciate your input, thanks. A7V2 (talk) 07:42, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Licenced vs. actual nationalityEdit

In recent times, drivers have been placed into entry lists and results using 'licenced nationality' (for example here with drivers such as Armstrong listed as Italian and not New Zealander, and Sato represented as Sammarinese and not Japanese) as they are sourced from entry lists and the like. As this is not 'actual nationality' (i.e. Armstrong is not an Italian citizen), such representation goes against Wikipedia's factual accuracy policy, particularly considering that 'actual nationality' for drivers is easily sourced and is often provided in the Driver Database link in the external links section of their personal pages.

I would like to gain consensus on a future solution, however this is my perspective – a driver should be listed as being from a nation of which they are a citizen, regardless of the entry list source. The current end-of-page notes regarding nationality can be flipped, stating that "X is a *insert nation* citizen however is displayed as *licence nationality* in the official entry list". If a driver is a dual citizen (such as Sebastián Fernández or Keyvan Andres) and is licenced to one of those nations, then as it is both 'actual' and 'licenced' simultaneously therefore the 'licenced nationality' should be used. If a dual citizen is licenced to a nation not of their citizenship then the nationality to which they are credibly externally sourced (e.g. if Andres is labelled Iranian by should be used. Holdenman05 (talk) 02:09, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

I completely agree per the above. SSSB (talk) 07:27, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
@Tvx1, Mclarenfan17, Kytabu, DH85868993, Ivaneurope, Willsome429, and RewF12012: We need some more editors involved to get this discussion off the ground. Holdenman05 (talk) 09:43, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
I think it has to be one rule applied consistently, and I think the licence nationality taking priority over birth nationality is the right way to go about it. First of all, we use the entry lists as sources. Mahaveer Raghunathan is Indian by birth, but there is nothing in the sources that says he is Indian. We therefore cannot call him an Indian driver.
We have also had this problem outside driver articles. It has particularly come up with Red Bull Racing and people who try to argue that the team is not Austrian, but rather British because the team is based in Britain, employs mostly Brits, and the car is built in Britain. It's little more than a thinly-veiled attempt to claim Red Bull's success for Britain—and, full disclosure, the double standards expected by British fans pretty much drove me away from Formula 1 in recent years (they gave Ticktum a free pass over something they crucified Vettel for) so I freely admit bias here—but I'm worried that if we start accepting birth nationality over licence nationality, it could open the door to some pretty serious issues with misrepresenting things.
Also going to tag @Corvus tristis here because he's the junior formulae guru. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 10:22, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
I disagree with the proposal here. We have always used flags to denote nationalities they represent. That's the only way MOS actually endorsed the use of flags in sports article. Also note that in FIA world championships drivers have to use a nationality they have the citizenship of. Drivers with multiple citizenships, like Grosjean, Verstappen or Stroll pick which one they want to represent. In the case of Marino Sato mentioned above, if he were to win a F3 race that would be celebrated with the playing of the Sammarinese national anthem, not the Japanese one. Hence why we use the flag of Japan. Given priority to nationalities they don't represent would just create unnecessary confusion.Tvx1 10:31, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
According to Article 9.5, Point 2 of the FIA International Sporting Code all drivers competing in FIA World Championships such as Formula One, WRC, WEC etc. are displayed by their nationality of their passport in all official documents, publications and prize-giving ceremonies irrespective of which ASN the driver's license was isseued. For instance a driver, competing in WEC, who has Russian passport, but races under license from DMSB – the German ASN – but doesn't have German passport, will always have the Russian flag flown and the Russian anthem played since he's Russian by legal documents. To race under German flag he has to obtain German passport as well.
This is not limited to drivers, but also teams – we at TCR Series WikiProject stumbled across a similar issue with JSB Compétition, a French registered team in the TCR Europe Series and TCR Benelux Series. To be eligible for TCR Benelux the competitor need to be from either Belgium, Netherlands or Luxembourg, or driving for a team based in one of the three countries. JSB and its drivers by extension happen to be eligible by virtue of the team also having Belgian license. But we at WP:TCR we're listing the team as French since in the TCR Europe website is listed as such.
I am not sure how to procede with the issue, but IMO all drivers on Wikipedia articles should be listed with their passport nationality and have a footnote should they race under different license.Ivaneurope (talk) 10:33, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
@Mclarenfan17: If you look at Raghunathan's (I've fixed the link for you btw) page, as with most drivers, you'll see that there is a link to 'Driver Database'. DriverDB is the most accurate (but not always – for example Lyubov Ozeretskovskaya of Formula 4 South East Asia is entered as Lyubov Ozeretkovskaya, missing an 's' in the surname) source of information for a drivers' personal statistics and results, and the vast majority of drivers have a nationality - 'actual nationality' - attached. If we lack a source, you can always go back to the DriverDB page to accurately source 'actual nationality'. Teams are to remain listed as 'licence nationality'; I don't see the issue personally – particularly if we provide a source or even a footnote next to the team name it'll be fine - for the Red Bull example, the note would say that it's an Austrian licenced team based in Britain.
@Tvx1: You've got the argument the wrong way around. We currently display Sato as Sammarinese (please read the entry list). I'm asking that we display him as Japanese as that is his nation of citizenship, whereas he is licenced to San Marino. Same as Doornbos in 2005 - he's Dutch but listed as Monégasque.
@Ivaneurope: Not really relevant to the discussion, but you have to question why Raghunathan appears as Dutch in the F2 graphics if that's the FIA's stance. Holdenman05 (talk) 11:12, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── @Holdenman05 — I think @Tvx1 is referring to individual driver articles whereas I am referring to championship articles. I see no problem with a discrepancy between the two where Ragunathan's article says he is Indian, but the championship article says he respresented the Netherlands.

To be honest, I do dislike the use of flags in championship articles because Ragunathan is not really representing a nation. The Netherlands gets no benefit from his having a Dutch licence the way they would if he was competing in A1GP. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 12:25, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

  • First of all, I would disagree that showing flag of the license breaks in any way factual accuracy policy. The sport articles were newer based on our general knowledge about athlete's nationality. It was always based on the information from sport federations and organisers, i.e. 1992 Summer Olympics with Independent Olympic Participants and Unified Team. Secondly, I honestly do not understand why there is so much trust in the Driver Database which information is filled by almost the same concept as Wikipedia (any info could be added by anyone), especially in comparison to official entry lists. P.S. I support Mclarenfan17 concerns about opening Pandora's box of biased interpretation. P.S.S. To illustrate accuracy of the Tvx's point, i advise Holdenman05 and SSSB to listen carefully what happened at podium after Armstrong's win. Yes, it is an Italian national anthem. Corvus tristis (talk) 12:38, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

───────────────────────── @Holdenman05 – this stance only applies to World Championships such as Formula One, WRC, WEC, WRX, WTCR (maybe) etc.. Since the FIA Formula 2 Championship is de facto not "world championship", thus perhaps allowing drivers to choose under which flag to appear. Thus Raghunathan races under Dutch flag despite being Indian and Patricio O'Ward races under US flag despite racing under Mexican flag in the Indycar Series.
Also I find it baffingly that Doornbos is listed as Monegasque, despite in season reviews on the Formula One site is listed as Dutch
And to be fair I think the FIA should only allow drivers to race for certain nation if they have passport there. If thet Armstrong has Italian passport and not merely a license issued by ACI, that's fine. But if not, I dont think he has legal right to race under Italian flag. But that's just my oppinion.Ivaneurope (talk) 14:00, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

With regards to Mclarenfan17's stance, in my opinion their view on what constitutes "representing a nation/nationality" is too restricted. Simply put, the organizers and governing bodies of these sports quite patently recognize them as representing a nationality by celebrating their wins with the raising the flag of the nationality they are registered with an by playing the relevant national anthem for the race winner. The above example of Armstrong's win celebrated by the playing of the Italian national anthem is self-explanatory. We just reflect these facts on Wikipedia. I respect that some people think it's wrong to list racing drivers in season and race articles with a nationality they possibly don't have the citizenship of, but Wikipedia is not the place to right great wrongs. These drivers simply compete under the nationality we list them with in these articles. Besides these drivers like Ragunathan, O'Ward, Sato or Armstrong must have had a good reason to register and compete under the nationality they have. All someone like Armstrong had to do to have the New Zealand anthem played when he wins a race, was to obtain a racing license stating "New Zealander" in the nationality field. As for Doornbos, he actually competed in the a FIA World Championship under the Monegasque nationality as evidenced by contemporary entry lists and on-screen graphics. Given that we're dealing with a FIA World Championship (which makes the case not comparable to the other mentioned drivers) there, per the sporting regulations it means that Doornbos actually must have held Monegasque nationality. In summary, season and race articles should use the nationalities that the drivers compete under. Of course, the drivers' own biographies can use prose to explain the situation fully. For instance, Marcus Armstrong's article could open with a sentence like "Marcus Armstrong is a New Zealand racing driver who represents Italy." or "Marcus Armstrong is a New Zealand racing driver who competes under the Italian flag."Tvx1 15:40, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Firstly, think about the statement 'Marcus Armstrong is Italian', because that's basically what the licence is saying. I'm not denying he used the licence or had the Italian anthem played, but no matter how you cut it Marcus Armstrong is not an Italian, and that is fact. He does not hold Italian citizenship nor an Italian passport, therefore to call him Italian (i.e. put the Italian flag next to him) is not fact. Furthermore, look at Giorgio Carrara – he has to compete under a Swiss licence due to visa restrictions, that doesn't make him any less Argentine or in any way Swiss.
Secondly, the claim that DriverDB is in any way the same as Wikipedia is false. DDB is a Swedish company that only people who work for the company can edit. None of us here work for Wikipedia, we're all unpaid volunteers. DDB has also been a trusted source for a long time, and if you have any issues I suggest you get in touch with them directly
Thirdly, we need to look at the bigger picture. Wikipedia is a source for the average fan. How are they going to look at Sato with a Japanese flag on one article and a Sammarinese flag on another and make any sense of it? Frankly, most will just change it to fit what they see as correct (i.e. what's on the driver page) regardless of the existing note.
Fourthly, on the team front, team nationality can be affected by a range of factors – where the team is located, who owns the team, who sponsors the team, etc. Think   Virgin Racing (2010) and   Marussia Virgin Racing (2011). Driver nationality isn't affected by where they live or who they are sponsored by – Mark Webber has lived in the UK for 20 years and he doesn't hold British citizenship. The only argument I forsee is a situation similar to Bruno Banani (luger), but Bruno Banani (the company) let him keep his Tongan nationality.
Fifthly, I'm not going to pretend I know everything about the CIS but the time difference between the fall of the Soviet Union and the '92 Games certainly wouldn't have been enough to set up 15 international-standard NOCs, therefore the IOC considered the athletes stateless and gave them their own flag – which is in no way different to the Independent Olympic Athletes team. The protocol for athletics and motorsport is not the same as their licencing systems are not the same. If Catalonia were to become independent tomorrow would Álex Palou be recognised as Catalan in the next Super Formula race? Almost certainly not, however that doesn't change the fact that he's still a citizen of the new Catalan state. This brings us back to the original point about actual nationality – if he's a citizen of the new Catalan state, therefore he should appear as Catalan because to state otherwise is false.
Similarly, unlike in the Olympics or FIFA, the FIA has never banned an active ASN – of which there are only 140 with recognised motorsport arms. This creates confusion – Ali Akabi, for example (again F4 SEA), is a dual citizen of Iraq and Jordan. Akabi appears on entry lists as Iraqi, however the Iraqi ASN is not recognised by the FIA, therefore he must be listed as Jordanian. This also goes back to one of my original points – if we have a dual citizen that is licenced to one of their nations of citizenship, we put down the licenced nationality. If not, we use a credible external source.
The overarching point is this – If a Kiwi is not in any way Italian, it is factually inaccurate to label him Italian and that goes against policy as there are sources to prove that he is a New Zealander and not Italian. Holdenman05 (talk) 23:07, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
What you fail to understand though is that our season and race articles list representative nationalities and not legal nationalities. therefore your Kiwi is labeled as representing Italy in those article which does follow policy and is factually correct. As I said before, you can use his personal article to explain the discrepancy between his legal nationality and his representative nationality.Tvx1 00:00, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Holdenman05, well if 'only people who work for the company can edit', what is this? I am just a registered member of Driver Database, but I can add and edit pages, just like anyone who want to register. Corvus tristis (talk) 06:01, 1 July 2019 (UTC)


So GhostOfDanGurney has reverted my edit over at {{Chip Ganassi Racing}}, referring to this WikiProject. The navbox uses custom styling which in itself isn't a problem, except for the fake and confusing WP:REDLINKS. This user specifically refers to {{Red Bull Racing}} as if its existence implies an established consensus to ignore MOS:ACCESSIBILITY and create confusing links.

As far as I can tell, consensus has never been established to intentionally violate WP:LINKCOLOR:

Refrain from implementing colored links that may impede user ability to distinguish links from regular text, or color links for purely aesthetic reasons.

 ... and:

Link style Type Color Color
red link link to a page that does not currently exist within Wikipedia #CC2200 = rgb(204,34,0)     

 ... as well as MOS:NAVBOXCOLOR:

Colors that are useful for identification and are appropriate, representative, and accessible may be used with discretion and common sense.

So let's all agree it's time to address this issue. I'm not against arbitrary styling, except when it affects web accessibility. Jay D. Easy (t • c) 10:25, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Before I say anything else, it should be pointed out that this user's edit history shows he created the link MOS:LINKCOLOR before pasting it into three templates so as to argue against them being coloured like the F1 templates, so it was never "intentionally violated" like the user claims to have happened. As it stands now, Ganassi, Hendrick and RLLR are no different from the Red Bull template. Either do all or none. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 15:29, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
linking for convenience: {{Hendrick Motorsports}} {{Rahal Letterman Lanigan Racing}} {{Chip Ganassi Racing}} GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 15:40, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
@GhostOfDanGurney: you haven't actually argued anything. He only created the shortcut, that MOS text was always there so it is a violation and the reason he didn't do all of them is because he got reverted after some. Please either argue one way or another rather that accuse other editors of doing things wrong. Now as Jay D. Easy points out this is a violation of MOS, these links shouldn't be red, as MOS explains. I suggest, to stop it violating MOS, that you make the background red and the text whatever colour the background used to be. I am certainly more than happy to see this happen to Red Bull's template and any others. SSSB (talk) 15:56, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
I didn't claim to argue anything other than the three he changed were no different from Red Bull's. His edit history showed no intention of changing Red Bull's, anyway; I reverted three hours after his changes, after he had moved on to editing other areas. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 16:04, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Pinging @Areaseven: who added the colour to Hendrick Motorsport's navboxGhostOfDanGurney (talk) 16:09, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
That's neither here nor there, the point is that these templates shouldn't have red text, otherwise they don't comply with MOS, MOS it very explicit on this issue. The fact that they are no different from red bulls isn't a valid argument either, just because it's in one location doesn't make it correct and you should assume good faith and assume he wasn't aware that red bulls template was another violation. SSSB (talk) 16:16, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
And I'm being accused of intentionally violating a redirect link that was created last night. That's not an assumption of good faith, either. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 16:49, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
GhostOfDanGurney: calm down. You're not being accused of anything. The fact is that the template is in violation of the aforementioned guidelines. Also, why does it matter that a shortcut was only recently created by me? I could just as well have used a section link. This changes nothing about the fact that an accessibility guideline is ignored. Jay D. Easy (t • c) 18:54, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Basically, I’m going to second SSSB. Yes, it may be semi-precedent, but sometimes precedent is unknowingly violated. Once a rationale, backed up by policy, was given for change, it should’ve stayed. I haven’t heard anything from GhostOfDanGurney regarding why they should be kept the way they are. I’d be in favor of complying with MOS and changing all affected templates. Willsome429 (say hey or see my edits!) 16:19, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Well {{Red Bull Racing}} looks absolutely terrible now... But it now "complies" with this awful policy.....GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 16:53, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Usability trumps pretty colors. This is a horrible hill to die on. The359 (Talk) 16:53, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
It was pretty horrible to begin with. SSSB (talk) 16:57, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
Then I will go make every F1 template the default colours. Is everyone fucking happy now?GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 16:55, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
So you're going to vandalize because you don't like having to not use the color red for links? The359 (Talk) 16:56, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
No I'm making everything consistent. Not vandalizing a damn thing, or else take me to ANI. Stupid that this is only an issue NOW off all times.GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 17:16, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
The consistency is that colors are allowed, except for the use of red in links because of usability issues which affect all of Wikipedia. Exceptions do not ruin the consistency. When in time the discussion comes up is irrelevant, either you're aligned with the MOS or you're not. The359 (Talk) 17:18, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

So now we have Red Bull and Torro Rosso in lovely default, and every other team in full colours. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay! Nobody wanted that. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 17:21, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

I left them as the default until a solution can be made. You are not doing anything to actively find a solution. If you have a better suggestion, make it. The359 (Talk) 17:23, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
GhostOfDanGurney: what is with this passive aggresive child-like behavior? You were the one who reverted my edit and told me to discuss things here, which I completely agree with. Just because a precedent has been established doesn't necessarily mean it's a good precedent. The whole reason I changed the link colors is because I honestly thought they were actual red links, i.e. links to non-existent pages. The fact that I was confused is exactly why such guidelines are in place, I'd imagine. Jay D. Easy (t • c) 19:04, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
I already inverted the colours and it looked bad. Dark blue on red does not work. GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 17:30, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
So let it sit until someone more helpful can think of a better solution. The359 (Talk) 17:38, 6 July 2019 (UTC)
I actually think the solution was very simple. Change the text color to one that cannot be confused with a link.Tvx1 00:31, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
Which I have taken the liberty of doing for Rahal Letterman, Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Hendrick, and Chip Ganassi. None of them look ugly, none of them are red now. The359 (Talk) 00:59, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

May as well have just made them default, because they look identical now, anyway. When I did Ganassi and RLL, the intent was to try to imitate the team logos. Someone then went and did the NASCAR teams the same way, so at least one person thought my idea wasn't stupid....GhostOfDanGurney (talk) 21:07, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

The Hendrick, RLL, and Ganassi ones were all identical before, they were literally white backgrounds with alternating black and red text. I removed the red text. Further, because of the way you did them, the V-D-E links in the corner of the templates were also red, which makes them appear to be empty links. If you want to improve them, be my guest, just don't use red links. The359 (Talk) 22:31, 7 July 2019 (UTC)
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