Talk:Grub Street

The Enlightenment

This article should be updated with regards to Robert Darnton's work on the literary sphere during the Enlightenment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JPSCastor (talk • contribs) 04:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

User:Parrot of Doom/sandbox3

I've been working on an updated version of this article. At some point when its more complete, with no objections, I'll copy it across here. Parrot of Doom (talk) 23:39, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Comments

Here are my comments - sorry it has taken so long!

• I'm not sure about the specific references to Pope and Johnson in the lead. Many writers have depicted Grub Street. If you want to highlight these two, you have to explain to the reader why these are the most important.

• The last paragraph of the lead seems to include quotations from something. They thus require a citation.

• I think the lead can be expanded. The article has quite detailed sections about the role of the periodicals, taxations, etc., but these ideas are not reflected in the lead.

• I would separate the etymology of the name out from the "History" - make that its own second-level section.

• I'm wondering if doing some additional research on the history of London would help you pull together the "Early history" section. Reading a few books on the history of London might give you some context for the development of the street and the area. You could then frame these details within larger developments and they wouldn't seem so scattered. One good book is Peter Ackroyd's London.

• I feel like the "Press freedom" section needs more of an introduction. It is a bit jarring for the reader to go from a more general history of the area to this very specific history of the Stationers' Company and licensing. Can you add some material about why this particular topic is being introduced?

I hope this helps. For me, it is the "Early history" section of the article that needs the most work, as it seems to be collection of facts rather than a coherent history. The other sections are much better in this regard. Some readers might even suggest a reduction of detail in these sections, but I think the historical context is good. Awadewit (talk) 00:50, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I haven't really touched the lead, its almost identical to the article as it was before I expanded it. I've tried to give an idea of the geographical location and its history, and then tried to explain the evolution of publishing in the area. Its still a loose collection of 'stuff' right now, I'm struggling to find any useful material on a 'legacy' section, although there are plenty of newspaper search results containing modern references. Your comments are sound though, and I'll certainly work on your recommendations. I feel I'm constantly taking 1 step back with every 2 steps forward, but its certainly progressing. Parrot of Doom (talk) 10:33, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Grubby?

Any relationship to the adjective grubby? Merriam-Webster Online says it originally meant "infested with fly maggots," and dates it to 1725. In American usage, it's come to mean anything dirty, shoddy, substandard.

Sca (talk) 14:21, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Grub has several meanings, one of which is a 'grub' (larvae), but in this context it is believed the name derives from the 'grub' (ditch) that used to run near the street. 'Grubby' according to the OED is a relatively late invention, c.19th century. Parrot of Doom (talk) 14:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Some observations from another discussion, placed here for convenience

* "The street no longer exists" is incorrect - it may have had a name change but it's very much still there;

*There's no need for the "may" in "An early use of the land surrounding Grub Street may have been Archery" - Finsbury Fields was and still is a military facility since at least the 15th century, and is currently the Royal Artillery's cricket pitch (see this image, and once you've seen it then tag it {{db-f9}} as it's a blatant copyright infringement);

• Something you don't mention which at least warrants a side note is the significance of Bedlam, located nearby from 1675-1815, and the role it played both as a source for stories and ideas, and as an instrument of coercion against radical thinkers;
• The general tone of the article gives the impression that the Grub Street press was far more important than it was; for all the period in question, London's publishing industry was centred on Fleet Street and Paternoster Row, while the Grub Street press was for the most part the 17th-century equivalent of today's bloggers and YouTube posters;
• I'm extremely unconvinced by "in Elizabethan times archery became unfashionable, and Grub Street is described as largely deserted", unless you have an absolutely cast-iron source for it. This was a military base during a period of near-constant warfare, and would surely have been in constant use regardless of fashion. The area also borders on Goswell Road, which was (and is) part of the Great North Road (aka the A1), the main (in this period the only) road connecting London to Yorkshire and Edinburgh, so would have had constant traffic;
• In the section beginning "The local population was known for its nonconformist views", you mention Foxe, who may have had a vague association with the area, and Milton, who lived nearby but wasn't really "nonconformist", except in the broadest sense (and in the context of a religious war, "nonconformist" doesn't really mean much) - however, you don't mention John Wesley and Charles Wesley, arguably the most important nonconformists of them all, who have cast-iron associations with the area (Wesley's Chapel, opposite Bunhill Fields, is still in use today);
• The Star Chamber was a court to judge cases in which, despite the letter of statute law not being broken, it was felt that a breach of natural justice had occurred (notably conspiracy, libel and sedition). It was not "a court which controlled the press", other than in the sense that modern libel and copyright laws "control" the press. The growth of the anti-government press in the second half of the 17th century wasn't anything to do with a relaxation of censorship laws - the only change was from the common-law regime of the Star Chamber to the statute-law regime of Cromwell's Licensing Order of 1643 - but the inability/unwillingness of the government, distracted by the civil war, to enforce the laws;
• A {{citation needed}} in bright flashing lights for "in a literary context, 'hack' is derived from Hackney—a person whose services may be for hire, especially a literary drudge", and I'd go as far as to say the OED is wrong if that's what they're saying - "hack" in this context (and in its other use as a synonym for "taxi") is patently derived from Hackney (horse), a horse bred for obedience and stamina;
• Robert Walpole never used the title "Prime Minister"; his title was First Lord of the Treasury. The first British leader to use the title was Henry Campbell-Bannerman in 1905 - the "Walpole was the Prime Minister" idea is a modern-day back-formation to make "most prominent minister in the cabinet" into a neat succession that will fit into lists and navboxes;
• I'm less than convinced by "Christopher Smart's The Hilliad (a pun on Pope's Dunciad)". Surely it's a pun on The Iliad?
• "[Grub Street] has since been replaced by the Barbican Centre" is incorrect, although it's an easy mistake to make. The Barbican Centre is further west; the southern end of Grub/Milton Street is the site of Brandon Mews, part of the Barbican Estate housing estate.

Well, you asked... – iridescent 13:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Parrot of Doom (talk) 19:31, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

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