Talk:Godred Crovan

Successor

Powicke's Handbook of British Chronology has Godred succeeded by Lagmann (p. 63), Hudson's Viking Pirates has Godred succeeded by Lagmann (p. 188), and McDonald's Kingdom of the Isles has Godred followed by a three-cornered fight between Lagmann, Domnall mac Taidg and one Ingimund (p. 35). The evidence seems to be that Godred was not followed by Magnus Barefoot, which is what we'd expect if he only arrived in the west in 1098. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

After looking into the story of King Magnus, it would appear that you in some ways have a point.

Magnus only intervened at Man and the Isles after Godred's heirs started fighting each other over control. With a chaotic situation in the Irish Sea King Magnus sailed with a fleet across the North Sea and first captured the Orkneys (and seizing the Earls of Orkney), then the Hebrides and lastly the Isle of Man.

If we view the infighting following Godred's death as anyone's reign, then sure, Magnus isn't Godred's immediate successor. But it seems that Lagman only gained real control in 1103. Should we really view fighting for succession as a reign? Manxruler (talk) 01:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. How important was the Isle of Man in the scheme of things? According to Hudson, Lagmann is called "lord of Uist" in Morkinskinna and he was captured by Magnus's fleet off Skye or Scarba. Lagmann might still have been king in the "Isles", or some of them, even if he wasn't king on the isle of Man.

It might be easiest to have Godred succeeded by Lagmann and make sure that the Lagmann article explains that he didn't necessarily rule Man and the Hebrides, and that he had several rivals: Domnall mac Taidg, Amlaíb mac Taidg (killed on Man in 1096), "Ingimund" perhaps, his brother Harald even (the date of his rebellion and blinding is uncertain). Then there are Earl Ottar and the MacMaras, but they might be having a private war in 1098. Chaos is harder to present on a list of kings though. Having Godred followed by chaos and then by Magnus makes it harder to explain the chaos. But maybe I'm missing some other solution. Angus McLellan (Talk) 02:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems that exactly what happened with regards to Lagman and when is very much unclear, different sources say different things. As my professor said, Mediaeval history is a lot about qualified guesswork. I don't know what we should do, but it seems clear that Magnus III of Norway did capture the Norse-held islands in the Irish Sea in 1098 and that Lagman ruled the Isle of Man at some point in time. Which order this happened varies from source to source. Seeing as you have a number of probably good books to cite then by all means edit the order of the kings, just just edit the list of kings too and add footnotes. Manxruler (talk) 02:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Having read the Manx Chronicles, I have now started reading the notes by Professor P. A. Munch. He was evidently of the opinion that the Sagas had the dates wrong, and that Magnus III sailed against Man and the Hebrides in 1093, not 1098. Interesting. Here's the link. Manxruler (talk) 04:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Munch's hypothesis relied upon there being three expeditions made by Magnus rather than two. The idea isn't widely accepted any more, as Rosemary Power has shown that all that really supports that is Ordericus Vitalis' account, and his dating and details for anything involving Magnus is all over the place. Also, the Manx Chronicle has Godred as the son of Harald the Black of Ysland, and attempts to translate that as Ireland or Islay seem to be more popular than Iceland. That said, nobody really knows for sure and the sources contradict each other enough that you'd have a hard time having this page make easy reading. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.239.120 (talk) 17:17, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

If you're interested in other (newer, but still free-to-read) stuff, this paper from the Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland may be worth a look. Seán Duffy's medieval volume, covering 1000 to 1406, of the New History of the Isle of Man may (finally) be out this year, there's a blurb here. No sign of the Prehistory volume though :-( There's no problem with qualifying things - on the one hand P.A. Munch said X, but now <people> say Y - indeed it's a good thing! Angus McLellan (Talk) 14:59, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Macdonald has a new book - Four Courts Press so overpriced - Manx Kingship in its Irish Sea Setting, 1187–1229: King Rognvaldr and the Crovan dynasty. I dunno though if it's any good or if it'd be relevant. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:45, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

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