Talk:Educational attainment in the United States

Scope of article

This article is going to outline the educational attainment for each of the groups mentioned in the opening paragraph and then discuss the relationship between other demographic characteristics and educational attainment. Please be patient with the creationg and building of this article. Regards, Signature^brendel 21:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Just an update, the article has been expanded as visible above is a GA nominee. Signature^brendel 07:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The current article doesn't discuss actual education attainment. A discussion of theories that are interested in education attainment is notable enough for Wikipedia, but doesn't seem relevant to the title of this article. How about we move the theoretical stuff to its own article, say "Theory of educational attainment in the United States" and reduce this article to a bald statement of degrees and such attained by people of the US, broken down by the usual suspects like ethnicity, wealth, sex, etc? -- KarlHallowell (talk) 14:44, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Race numbers don't add up

Just a concern about the graph of income, race, and education status - there must be some flaw in the data there. For example, Whites have a higher income than Asians in every category, but in the "Total" category where the data is averaged together, Asians have a higher income than Whites. I don't see how that can happen, unless there's an error in the data or calculations. -Scott

No, no its' not Podium a flaw (I was puzzeled myself when I first read the data). Here is why: Whites with college degree have a higher mean income than Asian with a college degree, the same is true on every level. Among all races those with college degrees make significantly more than those who do not have a college. Now the reason why Asian have a hogher Total median income is becuase the percentage of Asians with college degrees is higher than the percentage of Whites with a college degree. In other words- Even though Asians make less at every level than Whites, they are more educated than Whites and thus have higher total mean income. Let me give you a small model. Say we have 6 Asians and Whites. 3 Asians (50%) have a college degree and make $50,000 a year, 2 Asians (33%) have some college and make $35,000. One Asian has a high school diploma and makes $20,000. Now, the mean income for this group of Asians is $40,000. Among the six Whites, 2 have a college degree and make $55,000. One White has some college and makes $40,000 and the other three have a high school diploma and make $25,000 each. Now even though the group of whites make $5,000 more at every level than the group of Asians, becuase they are less educated the mean income for our six whties is only $33,333- that's $6667 less than the mean for the six Asians. Now this is just an examlpe-but it should illurtate how Whites can outearn Asians at every level but yet have lower total mean income. Regards, Signature^brendel 20:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

GA failed

I failed this from WP:GA for the following reasons:

• It fails to give an adequate historical context.
• Sources are not broad enough to give broad coverage of topic.

- Davodd 22:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you should think about refreshing you fact here is a link why the highest attainment group in the US is no longer Asains and some of your figures are wrong.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_immigration_to_the_United_States double check with the census, wiki,and other articles thank you. http://www.migrationinformation.org/USfocus/display.cfm?id=719 and http://www.examiner.com/x-3865-Chicago-Public-Education-Examiner~y2009m6d16-African-immigrants-outgraduate-American-Caucasians-and-Asians

Race section needs some clarification

The section on "race" does not at any point get into the muddiness of using "race" figures that in any way get into the whole Hispanic/non-Hispanic issue. Readers constantly comment on talk pages that (a) "Hispanic/Latino is not a race," which is true in most of the historic classification systems although the whole race concept is debatable and (b) numbers tend not to add up because of the overlap. Fixing it by simply writing about "White non-Hispanic" doesn't actually fix it, and this fact should at least be addressed, both for the sake of intra-U.S. readers and those in the rest of the world who may (MAY, I said!) have less familiarity with this subsection of the topic. There is literature out there, moreover, on how common it was for the "other race" category in the 2000 census to be chosen by the same people who marked "Hispanic/Latino," which confuses the issue further. I'm not saying that this article should attempt to straighten it out, only to introduce the issue and point the reader to articles that explore this arena. I'll try to dig out my notes and see if I can make a start on doing this, but if someone else beats me to it, I'll scarcely be disappointed. Lawikitejana 05:41, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

So what exactely is it that you would like to see? I know Hispanic and Latino isn't really one race as it is even less of homogenous group than Whites, but nonetheless we use the term by the US Census Bureau which is "Hispanic or Latino (who may be of any race)." We need to use the figures the Census Bureau provides in the exact manner in which the present them which includes using the term "Hispanic or Latino." If we stray from the manner in which the Census Bureau presents these figures to far, we run the risk of having OR content here. Would adding the phrase "(who may be of any race)" behind the term "Hispanic or Latino help? Regards, Signature^brendel 20:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Renominated

As per the GA dispute (archived here: Wikipedia:Good articles/Disputes/Archive 5) this article is being re-nominated. Homestarmy 18:39, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. Signature^brendel 20:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Second GA nom failed

I failed this GA nom: The big problem that I can see is in the quality of the prose: it is choppy, too informal, unclear, etc. It needs a lot of reworking and copyediting. It does yet not meet the "well written" criterium.

Also the referencing is not thorough enough; large sections are lacking in inline citations. It is granted that almost all of the info comes from the Census, but that's the problem... more commentaries and books on the topic must be researched. The article is now just a list of figures. I'm sorry, but it's still not ready. -- Rmrfstar 15:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is "some college"?

Can anyone find the official definition of this? Does it include completing at least a semester, a year, enrollment? 75.6.200.166 11:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Some college in general means people who have not completed their Bachelor's but have earned some number of college units. It's the completion of units; whether you have completed 3 units, a year or three years. Some college just means that you went to college earned any number of units but didn't get a degree. Interestingly enough, people with an AA may or may not be included under some college-so the definitions vary a bit. So, both a college freshman who drops after completing one 3 unit course, as well as a person with an AA may have some college. In the statistics mentioned in this article I usually use the former definition which states some college to be any accumulation of units that did not earn a degree. If I included people with Asociate degrees under some college, I clearly stated so in the text. Thanks for your interest. Regards, Signature^brendelNow under review! 00:28, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

-

"This large racial inequality might partially be explained thorough the influx of uneducated Hispanic Americans -who had not been OFFERED the chance- to complete secondary education in their home country"

I think the "offered" should be changed to "Didn´t want to finish high school because thought it was pointless and prefered to start making money"; i live in mexico, where public high school is FREE as college and there are also distance and night options. I know a lot of teenagers that just don´t like to study, even when they could afford a private institution and choose to work as construction workers and get married young.

If you take out the jews?

If you exclude the jews from the white population how much closer are black people to the whites in educational attainment? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.69.220.205 (talk) 02:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC).

Wow. Let's enumerate the underlying assumptions that appear in that statement: 1) The subtle anti-semitism. 2) The assertion, whether true or not, that Jews are somehow not white. (This is a subject of great debate both inside and outside of the Jewish community.) 3) The belief that 1.4% of the population can skew the numbers of 60% of the population such that they tower over the 18% of the population when adjusted for scale. 4) The refusal to believe that the systematic ghettoization and exclusion of a group (in this case, 'black people') *might* cause lower educational achievement.

It sounds like you are just projecting your own prejudices. The question, even if not politically correctly formed, is valid and interesting. Your response is particularly useless because it seems that you knew the right interpretation, but instead decided to troll.

This is a valid and interesting question but any skew in the data is probably caused by baby boomers who are "white" and a significant part of the population. I am no expert on U.S. Census data so I will leave this argument to the professionals. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/07/30/most-common-age-among-us-racial-ethnic-groups/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Roachpatty (talk • contribs) 04:57, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Education and schooling are not synonyms

the words education and schooling are not synoynms.

• To put the above poster's objection more clearly and exactly, as I interpret it: education and the possession of degrees are not necessarily synonymous -- but are generally assumed to be so. If the possession of degrees has become a marker of something other than education (on the debatable argument that cultural, social, and economic emphasis on the possession of degrees rather than possession of knowledge has changed the priorities of the education system), then the resulting mismatch between the assumption and the reality presents potential difficulties both for education itself and for public discourse about education. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.246.173.144 (talk) 22:23, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Studies

24.32.208.58 (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2007 (UTC)The Pew Research Center has found that support for the availability of abortion, stem cell research, gay adoption, gays serving in the military, and assisted suicide correlate with involvement in higher education, with those with college degrees leaning more liberal.[1] [2]

I would like to include more info about this correlation, but the material has to be handled delicately. The fact that most well-educated people support certian ideas doesn't mean that the ideas are right-- (see eugenics). Still, these and other studies could be mentioned in a NPOV way. 24.32.208.58 (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

True, I will such info later on. I am aware of the correlation between education and liberalism and, though an educated liberal myself will be able to add such info in an NPOV manner ;-). Signature^brendel 00:19, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Figures need updating/clarification

Figures are now available as late as 2007 from here: http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/educ-attn.html

References are made to figures from 2005 but the PDF report cited is from 2003. Davidbrake (talk) 17:23, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

"Graduating" High School

This obscenely racist article seeks to discredit the intelligence of "Hispanics", latinos and Blacks, yet the grammar says little for the intelligence of whoever wrote these sentences.

"Persons identifying as Hispanic or Latino had the lowest educational attainment. The gap between race was the largest between foreign-born Asian Americans, over half (50.1%) of whom had a Bachelor's degree or higher and foreign-born Hispanics, 9.8% of whom had a four-year college degree. Hispanics and Latinos also trailed far behind in terms of graduating high school"

So they go up to the building and paint white lines with numbers -23 cubic feet, 24 cubic feet and so on?

Perhaps the Neo-Nazi and Murrayan (East Asian/ Azhkenazi Jewish supremacist) trolls on Wikipedia should consider actually studying the English language before falsifying statistics to create racist propaganda. 64.222.107.35 (talk) 03:32, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

The numbers don't appear to be falsified. You can investigate them for yourself here: www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/education/educational_attainment.html. I find it interesting that your accusations of racism are in and of themselves racist. As far as the gap is concerned. Yes there is a gap. Maybe the article should better explain the causes of the gap. Thank you for your input. Does anyone else feel that the above comments by 64.222.107.35 (talk) should be deleted? --205.155.65.233 (talk) 17:23, 14 March 2012 (UTC)(a Murrayan).

Badly stated, but the writer seems to want the article "improved," to his liking, so I suppose the comment can remain. He wasn't attacking any person in particular. Anyway, his complaint about using the regionalism "graduating high school" has been fixed. It is now graduating from high school. GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

What is a professional degree?

I thought I'd ask that someone perhaps include a definition of "professional degree" on this page, or at least be careful about explicitly mentioning the definition when citing data sources that provide statistics for professional degrees. For example, when I look up first professional degree, I wonder whether the numbers cited on this page showing professional degree holders to earn more than PhD holders use a stricter definition than that page, since the "First professional degree" page includes social work, religious ministry, and others which (though I could be wrong about this) seem to be rather low-paying.

Darthhappyface (talk) 04:59, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Degree Percentages

I think the statistics are misleading. The percentage of people age 24 or over with a Bachelor's degree is 19%. This number should be shown in place of or in addition to the percentage of people with an Associate's/Bachelor's degree which is much higher. Jmruru (talk) 00:42, 9 March 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmruru (talk • contribs) 00:37, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Gender gap

Maybe expand this section and write about the degrees where m>f and f>m? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.73.145.46 (talk) 05:01, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Needs Updated

The 2003 statistics should be replaced with the 2010 statistics, here: www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/education/educational_attainment.html. --205.155.65.233 (talk) 16:36, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Anybody who has the fortitude can edit the article. GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:48, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Census stats on graduation

It appears to me that the US Census stats indicate 19.5% have a bachelors, not 39%. 201,543,000 total over 25 years. 39,286,000 Bachelors degree. Am I mistaken? Check the rest of percentages please.

199.8.232.55 (talk) 16:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC) David Ostergren, PhD. Goshen College

I agree the "educational attainment" table is just plain wrong. Should be updated with census department data that can be found in the reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.79.203.125 (talk) 19:17, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

update graphic of wages & employment by educational attainment

The graphic of wages & employment by educational attainment needs to be updated (I'm referring to this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Figure01-earnings_by_degree.gif). Here is the same image from the BLS but updated with 2011 information: http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.gif

I would have already updated this, but I'm not sure if this is considered a copywrited image. The data is public info, but the graphic may not be? However, I assume it is if older version of this graphic was allowed to be uploaded to the wiki. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.8.65.25 (talk) 13:32, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

It's a public record and open for use. Done by our government. Well, mine anyway. GeorgeLouis (talk) 05:49, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

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Links to "Map of Educational Attainment in the US"

This is primarily a note for GermanJoe, but I'm still putting on the talk page for visibility. In a recent edit an IP editor added a link to this map which includes a visual way of navigating the percentage of people in various counties would have at least a certain level of education. GermanJoe removed the link, which admittedly could have been formatted and described better, with the summary "spam, WP:EL". When I look at the page I don't see how the link in particular qualifies as spam, as far as I can tell it is a genuinely reasonable and informative map. Is there something else about the webpage or the site as a whole that overtly promotional of spam? Thanks The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 19:08, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

The site is a personal website (see WP:ELNO #11) maintained by a non-expert in this particular topic, and has been added several times into various topics by - probably - the site owner (= spam). Generally speaking, personal websites are not exempt from our spamming and link guidelines, just because they aren't commercial. Anyone can create an informative and well-made website, but most of these websites are still not suitable for an encyclopedia. GermanJoe (talk) 21:14, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Out of date

I put a warning sentence into the article as the first line of text. There is a 5-year-old "Needs Updating" tag which has been ignored for 5 years and 4 months. I am not a demographer, and do not know how to find the current data. I hope some editor, who knows how to find the data, will get on the ball, and update this article. Come on people, much of this article looks as though it is the original from the first days of Wikipedia. All of the data in this article has changed dramatically as shown by the one or two tables that have been updated. Please fix this article. Thanks, Nick Beeson (talk) 21:51, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

And I have already removed it. The template is fine (not that we needed a second copy of the same template), but not the commentary. That's what the talk page is for. Meters (talk) 21:54, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Differences in income due to major area of study vs. educational attainment based on household income

Can someone explain why differences in income due to major area of study is relevant to educational attainment based on household income? I feel like further elaboration is needed on this point in the intro (edit in question).

TooManyTabs (talk) 21:22, 25 January 2021 (UTC)

Related AfD

Editors of this article may be interested in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Decreasing graduation completion rates in the United States. Apocheir (talk) 21:44, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

the two most important forms of education are missing

Vocational education and tertiary education are not even mentioned although they are much more important for a modern industrial nation and for producing informed voters than high school and university education. Germany looks bad compared to the US and Canada in tertiary education but in fact has a much larger percentage of educated citizens due to widespread high quality vocational education in the form of dual education. --Espoo (talk) 11:22, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

Images too large?

When I look at the page, the figures are too large. When I go to edit, they appear normal. Just me or is there an issue? 🤔 Chamaemelum (talk) 02:07, 3 July 2023 (UTC)