Talk:East Lancashire Railway (1844–1859)

Date Question

Should the title of this page be 1844-1849? The ELR amalgamated with the LYR in 1859. If this is merely a typo, could it be changed to 'East Lancashire Railway 1844-1859'. Thanks Hutch 12:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it should be 1859. I don't know how to change the title though. Can someone do this?

--Train guard 16:24, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually it should be 1845 - 1849, since the company did not technically exist in 1844. I have created an article for one of the companies that formed the merger. Any thoughts? I will move the article to 1845 if nobody minds. Parrot of Doom (talk) 01:59, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

lack of sources

Theres a fair bit of back story in the 'formation' section which while interesting has no sources, and appears unverifiable? As it is now, it appears biased. Parrot of Doom 23:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

unsourced material

I'm putting this here so it doesn't get lost. It probably isn't WP:OR but until I find a source for it...

_{In 1843 the Manchester and Leeds Railway (M&LR) decided to extend their Heywood coal branch to Bury. The sight of their surveyors caused considerable anxiety in the town; the Leeds company, described as the "Lies and Mancheater [sic] Railway" in a contemporary poster, and "the most brutal line in the kingdom" by the inhabitants of Huddersfield), was unpopular, and some of the influential inhabitants (led by John Grundy, a rich cloth merchant) decided to take matters into their own hands.}

_{The promoters wished to reach the intended Manchester station at Hunts Bank (Victoria Station) by means of a junction with the Manchester and Leeds Railway at Collyhurst, hoping that this would induce the Leeds company to abandon its own scheme.}

_{However, the Leeds directors played them along, while pressing ahead with their own plans. Fortunately, the Bury Provisional Committee saw through this trickery, and came to an agreement with the Manchester and Bolton Railway, reaching Victoria Station by means of a junction at Clifton.}

_{Public interest was aroused by the scheme, and pressure was exerted to extend the line further, but it was too late to incorporate this in the Parliamentary Bill.}

_{The ELR was now guided by Cornelius Nicholson, something of a Victorian polymath - he was an ex-mayor of Kendal, a promoter of the Caledonian Railway, and a correspondent of Wordsworth. Nicholson modelled himself upon George Hudson, the Railway King, and proposed a railway empire based upon Bury. His wilder schemes (which included promoting a line to Scotland) came to nothing, but the ELR certainly expanded. Unfortunately, Nicholson's ambitions, especially the promotion of the ELR as part of an alternative trans-Pennine route, had made a serious enemy.}

Most of this is derived from "The Coming of Steam", a booklet produced by the Bury Civic Society in the 1980s.

--Train guard (talk) 14:50, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I doubt however it would be useable right now as it seems fairly biased. Parrot of Doom (talk) 00:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't undestand. Why 'biased'? It's a publication, like any other.

--Train guard (talk) 10:44, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Well for one thing I don't have it here in front of me, so can't add page numbers and other details. Secondly I don't know if it contains an index, or any references itself (although to be fair some sources in this article also do not do this), but thirdly as the text now stands I think it is a little too coloured to be suitable for an encyclopaedic entry. I have been able to find nothing—nothing—else that mentions a "Leeds and Mancheater" Railway anywhere, and you'd expect to find at least a mention or two of this in other publications. I've looked everywhere for this. I've only found mention of Nicholson being on the board of directors, and not the chairman or a leading figure. I don't doubt however that verified information like this would make a valuable addition to the article. Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:18, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I tell a lie - I did find a Lies and Mancheater here but am unable to read it. Other similar results get Manchester and Mancheater mixed up on the optical character recognition. Parrot of Doom (talk) 11:23, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Finally, I'm not sure that this line should be in the article - else we'd have to make mention of every single closure. Better to include it in local articles in my opinion.

_{The East Lancashire Railway built the Skelmersdale Branch from Ormskirk to Skelmersdale and Rainford Junction, which opened on 1 March 1858. Passenger services ended on 5 November 1956, goods to Rainford finished on 16 November 1961 and Skelmersdale on 4 November 1963.}

Parrot of Doom (talk) 18:46, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Thoughts

I'm not going to get involved in the GA review for this – I'm a notoriously bad reviewer – but a few thoughts:

• The article could really do with a "legacy" section. At present, the only mention of the 150 years post 1859 is "Following the Beeching Axe much of the ELR's network was closed, but parts of the original MB&RR lane are now used by the East Lancashire Railway, a modern heritage railway opened in 1987". How much of the infrastructure still stands? Was the trackbed converted for other uses (roads, cyclepaths etc)? Are the stations still standing and if so, what are they used for?;

None of the track from Clifton Junction to Radcliffe remains, it has now been converted into a nature trail. From Radcliffe to just outside Bury the railway was shared with what is now the Metrolink Manc-Bury line. The modern ELR has the line up to Rawtenstall but no further. As for the other lines, I don't yet have a map of the network in 1859 so cannot say. It will take a visit to a library with a good railway book for me to get this information. Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:04, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd mention the nature trail in that case. This is England; people are interested in ruins and assorted derelict things. (Assuming you're in Manchester, I'd strongly recommend a trip to Ian Allan at 5 Piccadilly Station Approach, who are the biggest transport-history bookshop in the country and will happily sell you every conceivable historic map, book of old photographs, line history…) – iridescent 22:17, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I cycle up there all the time (even today) so getting the odd picture won't be difficult. Thanks for the bookshop tip, that's tomorrow sorted :) Parrot of Doom (talk) 22:55, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

• Although you wikilink "down line", it's not at all obvious what's an up and what's a down line in this case, even for someone familiar with the concept; "up" is traditionally towards a major location, but this line appears to have run between multiple locations of equal significance;

Well the up line in this case would be Manchester, but the important part is that the L&YR ran a train on the wrong rails, in the face of oncoming traffic. Parrot of Doom (talk) 16:11, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I know that – I'm just trying to think in Sandy Mode. (One of Giano's observations which is almost always correct is, assume your reader is a bright 14 year old with no prior knowledge, and ask yourself if they'd understand every term.) I had a similar row once about whether trolley pole, points and siding needed to be explained in the text. – iridescent 17:26, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

• Are there any images available of the railway in operation? (Hint: when it comes to obscure rail lines, Middleton Press is your friend). Provided the photographs were published prior to 1923, they can be hosted on en-Wikipedia (not Commons) regardless of what British copyright law has to say;

I have tried and tried, but can find none. There must be drawings and such in local publications. I may be able to sort this out on the weekend. Parrot of Doom (talk) 16:11, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

• For File:Map of the Manchester Bolton and Bury Canal with east lancs line.gif, I'd strongly recommend forcing the image width to 300px width– which in these circumstances is expressly permitted by WP:MOSIMAGE – to make the captions readable, as at upright-thumb width it looks like a plate of spaghetti;
• Finally, if you haven't already, ask at WP:GM for people to take a look over this. For reasons I don't quite understand, arguably a lot of the best copyeditors on Wikipedia are all Mancs, and it could do with someone familiar with the area but completely unfamiliar with train jargon to have a read through for clarity. – iridescent 21:31, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Report of opening

PoD et al, have you seen the report of the opening of the line in The Manchester Guardian? Would it not be suitable at least as a part of a further reading section? Yes, it is typical florid Victorian journalese but it conveys some idea of the corporate pride etc that otherwise we cannot really show. Details are: "Opening of the East Lancashire Railway : First Trip of the Directors and their Friends". The Manchester Guardian. Manchester. 26 September 1846. p. 7. (subscription required) - available via Manchester Libraries Access arrangements, which I'd guess PoD has already. If not, then mail me. - Sitush (talk) 19:50, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

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