Talk:Tornado outbreak of March 2–3, 2012

What?

How was it agreed to keep the events separate when they are part of the same event? TropicalAnalystwx13 (talk) 02:36, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Go back to the talk page at Tornadoes of 2012. This had been planned yesterday. CrazyC83 (talk) 02:37, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree with TropicalAnalystwx13 that 2012 Leap Day tornado outbreak and Early March 2012 tornado outbreak should be merged; as they are part of the same system, there were also tornadoes on March 1st that are not included in either article. I suggest a new title for 1 new article such as "Late February-early March 2012 tornado outbreak sequence." What do think? Undescribed (talk) 03:44, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I also agree with TropicalAnalystwx13 that 2012 Leap Day tornado outbreak and Early March 2012 tornado outbreak should be merged; as they are part of the same system. Also the storms on March 1 should not be excluded. The storm system continued to move east throughout "Leap Week 2012." (Ssgdonp (talk) 00:18, 5 March 2012 (UTC)).

Two separate storm systems are responsible for the outbreaks and should be reflected as separate events. The three tornadoes on March 1 are not enough to connect the events as there wasn't an outbreak each day (an outbreak is generally considered to have at least 6 tornadoes). Cyclonebiskit (talk) 13:49, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the articles should remain split since they were seperate systems. United States Man (talk) 14:49, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

A tornado outbreak sequence, by definition, is an outbreak over multiple consecutive days with active tornado activity with no breaks in between. One example would be in 2003, with 9 consecutive days, each with 10+ tornadoes. March 1 was a pause, with only 4 reported tornadoes (3 when filtered), which is a relatively normal event that happens with weather fronts almost every week. Therefore I agree on that these are also separate events and not enough to be considered a sequence, and that they should be considered as separate events. TheAustinMan^(Talk|Works) 16:07, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

From a New Mexico perspective there was no letup in our jet component that fed the southwest flow. It is the same system from this perspective and the articles should be merged. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.213.186.63 (talk) 16:54, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Don't merge them; they weren't the same outbreak, 24 hours is plenty to separate them, and I really have to say I think we should stop writing articles as "tornado outbreak sequences" unless reliable (official?) sources call an event a tornado outbreak sequence (as opposed to multiple tornado outbreaks or just abnormally high background tornado activity for several days). Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 20:50, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree that it's part of the same system (it was the same cold front that the storms formed in front of), but with the day's difference, and in media coverage, they have been viewed as 2 separate events. While it may be the same system, it makes sense from the public's perspective to keep them as 2 separate articles, in my opinion. Inks.LWC (talk) 22:00, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

While it is true that the same frontal boundary played a role in each outbreak, two separate low pressure areas were responsible for the outbreaks. At 2015Z on February 29, low pressure system 1 (responsible for the Leap Day tornado outbreak) was located near the Minnesota/Iowa border. The low pressure area continued moving east while driving a cold front towards the gulf coast between that time and 1215Z on March 1. By 0015Z on March 2, low pressure system 1 had moved out of the US/dissipated and low pressure system 2 (responsible for the most recent outbreak) was located near the Kansas/Missouri border and had picked up the leftover frontal boundary and was returning it northward. To me, this constitutes two separate storm systems, despite the fact that they did, indeed, share the same frontal boundary. As such, I feel that these articles should remain separate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lou1986 (talk • contribs) 05:09, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Page notice

See my question here. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 20:39, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Duplicate info in two versions?

This list: List of United States tornadoes in March 2012 contains a big portion of what is in this article, minus some updates. Is this intentional? Ottawahitech (talk) 22:11, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes. That list will eventually include every tornado during the month of march as an easy way to access all confirmed tornadoes in the United States. It ends making the main tornado year article more manageable as less notable events can just be represented in lists on there. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 22:16, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Often, months are combined (like Jan-Feb), but those months were both more active than usual so instead of starting up to March like in the recent past, March starts the next page. Almost always, April, May and June are their own pages, with the summer and fall months either separate or combined based on activity. CrazyC83 (talk) 03:40, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

EF4 was confirmed by the national weather service

The EF4 was confirmed in Indiana by the national weather service. Please undo revisions that undid the EF4 information. Rating is preliminary so it could have been stronger. Stormchaser89 (talk) 6:00pm, 3 March 2012 (US central)

Show me a link to an official NWS product listing that rating. I can't find any, so until one's provided, we can't include it. rdfox 76 (talk) 01:52, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Just got an email from CNN Breaking News

"CNN Breaking News

The tornado that swept through southern Indiana on Friday was an EF-4 -- meaning it had sustained winds between 166 and 200 mph, putting it in the top 2% of all tornadoes in terms of strength, the National Weather Service said Saturday.

The tornado was a part of a string of vicious storms that contributed to at least 37 deaths in Kentucky, Indiana, Ohio, Alabama and Georgia.

Eleven states were hit by tornadoes on Friday." 173.179.155.183 (talk) 02:20, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/03/us/severe-weather-indiana-town/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 173.179.155.183 (talk) 02:32, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

NWS Louisville has now posted it. However, the specifics on that tornado are quite sketchy still. The rating is certain (unless EF5 damage is found), but the path length, exact damage, track and death toll are still quite speculative. It is highly likely there were multiple tornadoes there as a second supercell trailed the first and they crossed paths. (There is no rating on the second tornado yet.) However, due to the difficulty in analyzing, it is best - for the moment - to consider it one tornado, with disclaimers, until Louisville makes the next decisions. CrazyC83 (talk) 03:38, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

The summary gave me an impression that 2 separate EF4 tornadoes affected Henryville and Marysville (actually the second one that developped between Henryville and Marysville was EF4 only in Scott County). I guess it wasn't long enough off the ground to count as two separate tornadoes. Here's the text:

"The tornado rapidly narrowed to a rope-like structure and ended as an EF1 with 90-95 mph winds and an 80 yard wide path. This occurred near the intersection of Blackberry Trail and State Highway 3.

Simultaneously, a new tornado vortex rapidly formed near Mahan Road and Old State Road 3 immediately southwest of the first tornado." 173.179.155.183 (talk) 00:09, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

That might be an account of the multivortex nature of this tornado. Though if it is it seems a somewhat odd way of wording it.TornadoLGS (talk) 04:06, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

The wording there may be a bit funky but they clearly list it as a continuous tornado along a 49 mile path. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 04:22, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

South Cincinnati area tornado duplicated entries?

Not sure if I'm correct but it looks like the Peach Grove (on Kentucky list) and the Moscow (Ohio list) entries appears to be the same tornado since their times and number of fatalities are the same with Clermont County (as well as Brown County) listed in the Peach Grove entry, but again I might be wrong and could be two different tornadoes. 173.179.155.183 (talk) 16:28, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Tri-State Tornado Outbreak?

Didn't the Tri-State Tornado occur in March? If so, this would be the third deadliest March Outbreak. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.92.63.121 (talk) 18:08, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

That was in mid-March, the lead indicates that Friday's outbreak was second deadliest in early-March not the second deadliest for the entire March outbreak, because in addition to the Jackson F5 in 1966, there were deadlier outbreaks in 1890, 1920, 1925, 1932, 1952 and 1994 among others. 173.179.155.183 (talk) 18:30, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

additional information continues to develop regarding this subject ; contentious issues may be resolved as more resources are deceloped. --RichardMills65 (talk) 01:10, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

A baby was carried for 10 miles by this tornado.

The title of this section is what the article currently says.  It is an urban legend.  Here is what the regional newspaper says here says,

Angel was found in critical condition in a field near her New Pekin home Friday afternoon, shortly after a tornado ripped through her home, killing the rest of her immediate family

. An AP report dateline Indianapolis places the baby at the Salem, IN hospital, ten miles north of the New Pekin, IN mobile home, here, with possibly a one-word error on the last word of the story.  Now this story from Australia has the entire family being blown 16 kilometres north to Salem, Baby Angel dies after being blown 16 kilometres away from family by tornado.  Unscintillating (talk) 06:08, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

See New Pekin, IN#Angel Babcock.  Unscintillating (talk) 04:22, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Might be worth noting

Just ran across this on the SPC page. They seem to have compared this outbreak to the 2011 Super Outbreak [1] but I'm not sure if this warrants addition (though the map of at least the 2012 warnings should be used). Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:19, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It's worth at least using the map, although I'm not sure of the merits of directly comparing this to the 2011 outbreak. It really wasn't as iconic as that outbreak, so I'm not sure there's much comparison to be made, to be honest. Ks0stm ^{(T•C•G•E)} 16:29, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Is there a discussion or news article that went with the image? If so, some info could be gathered from there if they discussed similarities. Inks.LWC (talk) 08:46, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

There was no comparison in reality. As bad as this outbreak was, it isn't really in the "legendary" class. That was a generational outbreak, this kind of outbreak happens every 1-3 years or so on average. CrazyC83 (talk) 17:21, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

According to an ex-Air Force meteorologist friend of mine, the setup on Friday was "almost identical" to that of the 1974 Super Outbreak and at least somewhat similar to last year's superoutbreak; the big difference is that both superoutbreaks occurred later in the year, with a lot more energy available to them due to higher temperatures. He figures that's the only reason Friday didn't turn into a similarly-sized event. Does this mean that there's a direct comparison? No, but if the SPC had an article discussing similarities in the initial conditions, that could be a very useful resource. rdfox 76 (talk) 18:41, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

But is there an article or just the graphic? Inks.LWC (talk) 08:47, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Section for the West Liberty tornado

Given that the West Liberty, KY tornado killed 11 people and almost reached EF4 I would say that this tornado was significant enough to get its own section in this article. TornadoLGS (talk) 23:02, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

There is nothing stopping anyone from working on it. It needs to cover the entire track though. CrazyC83 (talk) 20:05, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Okay. Once I get a bit of time on my hands I'll see what information I can get. TornadoLGS (talk) 21:55, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I started a section for the West Liberty tornado using the information from the outbreak list. Needs more information however. Stormchaser89 (talk) 9:02, 25 March 2012 (US Central)

Trimble County, KY and Carroll County, KY

Currently the article shows the EF4 tornado as stopping at Chelsea, IN.  Some news sources describe this tornado as continuing across the river into Kentucky.  I've added material to the Milton, KY article here.  I also saw a source saying that this was a touchdown in Trimble County continuing into Carroll County.  I don't know how this info gets organized, so I will see if there is a response.  Unscintillating (talk) 20:55, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Another report has it that there were two tornadoes in Trimble county.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:10, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Trimble County (NWS LMK) has three tornadoes. Source

* Long-track EF4 that came in from the west (this is described in detail here ).

* A short EF1 in the southern part of the county.

* An EF3 in the north part of the county. The important note on this one: the EF3 SSE of Milton and the EF1 W of Carrollton are the same tornado. They cross CWA boundaries and are written up separately by each office. Obviously that will impact the total count for the event. Source (NWS ILN) --The Great Zo (talk) 00:39, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

name change from Early March 2012 tornado outbreak to March 2–3, 2012 tornado outbreak

Should we change this back?  Unscintillating (talk) 23:50, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

Details for the West Liberty tornado not accurate

The WFO Jackson report of the event differs from what the article (and also the sections in the city article) are saying. Should be corrected. --Matthiasb (talk) 20:34, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

That's the preliminary survey information. It's likely that the information within the article has been updated to reflect the final data provided by the National Climatic Data Center. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 20:53, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Well the NCDC says: Tornadoes struck Menifee, Morgan, Bath, Wolfe, Laurel, Johnson and Martin Counties causing a combined 16 deaths in those counties. One of the strongest tornadoes in this outbreak, (…) killed 2 people in Menifee county and took an additional 6 lives in Morgan county. (…) A second EF-3 tornado touched down in extreme southeast Wolfe County and cut a path of damage across portions of Magoffin, Johnson, and Martin Counties. (…) This second tornado killed 2 people in Johnson County. (…) A third strong tornado caused extensive damage in and near the community of East Bernstadt in Laurel County. This tornado was rated at EF-2 and caused 6 fatalities.

Possibly the reason for the discrepancy is the mesh up of two different tornadoes travelling within the Johnson County, the 2239 EF-3 and the 2351 EF-3. Appearantly The death total now includes three deaths in Menifee, six in Morgan County, two in Lawrence County, two in Johnson County, five in Laurel County and four in Kenton County, French said. in http://www.kentucky.com/2012/03/05/2096127/more-than-18000-without-power.html#storylink=cpy was used as a source for calculating the deaths in the article. The SPC however does not mention 4 fatals in Kenton County and does not mention any Kenton County fatals though they count 2 fatals in Lawrence County in an 2330 event which is missing in the table in the article. --Matthiasb (talk) 06:04, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

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Widths of tornadoes appear to be inaccurate.

Hello, I've been doing some reading up on past outbreaks in Kentucky, and I've noticed that the storm events database and tornadoes on here are very differing, with majority of the tornado widths in the table being only 30 yards. Was this done intentionally, or was a mistake that was just never fixed? Wanted to ask and show evidence before I start going ham on the page.

The Harrison TN EF3 tornado for example, has a width of 30 yards on here. But on the NCDC Storm Events Database, it has a width of 400 yards Another EF3, the Holton EF3 has a width of 30 yards on here, but on the NCDC Storm Events database, it has a width of 350 yards

Im sure there's more examples, however this is only about 7 minutes of shallow search. MariosWX (talk) 22:10, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Full NCDC updates have yet to be done for these tornadoes. You are welcome to correct the data based on the NCDC entries. United States Man (talk) 22:51, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

All tornadoes should have the correct max width now based off of the NCDC. If discrepancies are found, we can email the offices involved to clear up information. MariosWX (talk) 02:29, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

References

Missing data, citations

Since the article was last heavily modified, maybe 2-3 months ago when the full reformatting job was carried out by other users and me, only a few small changes have been made, including the addition of the widths of the tornadoes according to the NCDC. However, back then, I tried properly sourcing all of the informaiton, but outbreak articles and storm report reviews for these storms are pretty messy and difficult to add to all the tornadoes that occurred. Also, the "Damage" column was set to 0$ for most tornadoes, as I could not find the proper damage accounts to add to the table. It has been like this for months, and as it is a relevant article branching from the Tornadoes of 2012, I feel we need to fix this. In the months since, I have gathered a little bit more experience in sourcing and updating tornado outbreak articles, so I will try to find the information that is missing. But is a moderate job. Not pinging anyone, as I wish not to be a hassle or be annoying to others. Mjeims (talk) 02:29, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Misleading citations

The citation for the Tornado Watches that are supposed to display the watches from 2012 are showing watches from 12 years later (2024) instead. PDS Tornado Watch 62 (2012) I’m pretty sure was issued for parts of KY/WV. The watch it displays when I open the link is Tornado Watch 62 (2024) for parts of Mississippi. 12.74.221.21 (talk) 14:09, 17 May 2024 (UTC)