Talk:Deaths in March 2018

Davide Astori

Hi. It looks very much from the edit history in the Deaths page as though the Italian national football team are currently playing US Cremonese, from the country's Serie B. Joking aside, and as a non-contributing editor in the matter, my claim is that, regardless of "number of games played" for either entity, the inclusion of the national football team as part of his Rule of Three "teams played for" is a foregone conclusion, on honour merit alone. Added to which, clubs in the second tier of any national football league are not strong enough in notability to trump the inclusion of the national team in the description, let alone the inclusion of the two currently-mentioned Serie A clubs that he played for. And in any case, his spell with Cremonese was merely on loan, his registration still being held by A.C. Milan at that time. In order to avoid any future, or imminent, edit war, I'd ask editors with an interest on one side or the other to enter a discussion here. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 20:24, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. National teams of any sport always supersede professional teams (within reason- i could see a case where if you played 1 or 2 games for the national team yet had 1000s of games for 3 professional teams. But that would be super super rare.)Sunnydoo (talk) 03:12, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Also agreed. Cremonese played in Serie C when Astori played for them. His matches for Italy are far superior in notability than his matches for Cremonese. Nukualofa (talk) 22:58, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Ralph Keller

Can we also get an amen or dammit for farm team superstars who briefly happen to "make it" in the big league? By the edit history, two of us seem to think the Rangers don't matter (in context), one that they both do and one that the Bears don't. I'd think the Rangers matter if Keller logged time for a third team, but as a duality, it isn't much of one. InedibleHulk (talk) 16:40, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Keller played for the Bears for 11 years, how doesn’t that matter? He played 3 games for the Rangers so IMO it’s pretty clear it wasn’t a significant run with them. But the Bears should definitely remain. Rusted AutoParts 17:00, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Why not both? It's an accomplishment to make the NHL, so there's no reason why that shouldn't be listed, but he's much better known for his long time playing in the AHL -- the top level of the minor leagues. Soccer players (sorry... "footballers") can have teams at multiple levels listed, so why not hockey players if there's a good argument for doing so? Skudrafan1 (talk) 17:33, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Both should be in and the NY Rangers should be listed. They are 2 different levels and I would normally say the Rangers go first, but in this case, the Bears should be first b/c of the accomplishments and b/c the lack of games for the Rangers.Sunnydoo (talk) 03:25, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Patrick Doyle (drummer)

Hi. Whoever it is who keeps piping the above name to Veronica Falls, would they please stop? It is a basic consensual rule on the Deaths page that persons cannot be pointed to another Wikipedia entry by piping in this way. Piping should be used for "disambig" purposes only. (Plus, the deceased's wikilink is already a redirect to that band.) Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 18:23, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Bignone

Apparently, it's inappropriate to call an infamous and well-known dictator, convicted criminal and ruthless taker of lives what he was. Human right violator are mild words for his actions, and should not be deemed controversial at all. There's no need to mention criminal acts of all people convicted of one, but crimes of this magnitude have to be mentioned. They are at least as notable as Shammi's three movies, Dil Apna Aur Preet Parai, Khuda Gawah, and Dekh Bhai Dekh. Nukualofa (talk) 22:10, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Also, we're not starting now, as TedR23 claims. Luciano Benjamín Menéndez died last month, as was labeled a military officer, convicted murderer and human rights violator. Max Clifford died in December and was called a publicist and convicted sex offender. Slobodan Praljak died in November. He was a military officer and war criminal. Tudor Postelnicu died in August, and was called a politician, police officer and criminal. The list goes on. Nukualofa (talk) 22:19, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

This page is about Notoriety. What Ted is not understanding is that we are not publicizing every crime in the history of humanity. We are labeling a guy who was known for his criminal activity which was in fact UN Level of Crimes against Humanity. When you run with people like Pinochet this is what happens (and that club is not exclusively Argentinian/Chilean...Stalin or Hitler or Idi Amin or anyone else who is known for 1000s if not 100000s of crimes, murders, tortures, rapes and kidnaps) and what your legacy is. This has nothing to do with personal feelings or objectivity...he was convicted of his crimes and the United Nations was involved in the locating of victims and prosecution. That is in fact the definition of Notoriety.Sunnydoo (talk) 22:34, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

And a 2nd point, I undid one of Inedible's edits last night...it is a very long detailed list of crimes he was involved in. So much so that individually labeling them or singling out the worst ones, is very much an injustice given the horrific nature of the list. It includes murder, rape, kidnap, torture, criminal conspiracy, fraud, assault, corpse desecration, blackmail, and more. Here are 2 paragraphs straight from his Wiki article:

On 20 April 2010, Bignone was sentenced to 25 years in prison for his involvement in the kidnapping, torture and murder of 56 people, including guerrilla fighters,[14] at the extermination center operating in the Campo de Mayo military complex.[15] On April 14, 2011, Reynaldo Bignone was sentenced to life in prison for crimes against humanity.[16][17]

On 29 December 2011 Bignone received an additional 15-year prison sentence for crimes against humanity for setting up a secret torture center inside a hospital during the 1976 military coup. On July 5, 2012, Bignone was sentenced to 15 years in prison for his participation in a scheme to steal babies from parents detained by the military regime and place them with friends of the regime. According to the court decision, Bignone was an accomplice "in the crimes of theft, retention and hiding of minors, as well as replacing their identities."[19] On May 27, 2016, Bignone was convicted for his role in Operation Condor, which included the murders of 105 people, among them 45 Uruguayans, 22 Chileans, 13 Paraguayans and 11 Bolivians living in exile. He was sentenced to 20 years in prison."

Sunnydoo (talk) 22:38, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Again I read these, and again I don't see rape, fraud, assault, desecration, blackmail or more. Just murder, torture and kidnapping. Conspiracy is implicit in all, because that's how government works. I singled (tripled?) out those three crimes because they're easily verifiable, not worst. But yeah, we should convey he's a bad criminal. Something vague like "criminal" or "violator" next to "politician" invokes white-collar assumptions by default. Granted, an astute reader might notice he's old and Argentine, so deduce "dirty war"-style dirt, but we don't write for astute audiences, only general. Generally, people like things somewhat specific. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:17, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

The correct place to detail his biography is his own article. Here, we have to be short and to the point, and describe where does he fit in the grand scheme of notable people. "President of Argentina" is his main source of notability, and should be enough. Perhaps we may say "de facto president of Argentina" or "dictator", to clarify that he was not an elected president (and the usual bad stuff associated with this kind of ruler would be implicit). Cambalachero (talk) 15:28, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Nah to the last part. Love him or hate him, he did preside for a while. Many who seize power wield it relatively kindly, and many elected presidents order murder, torture and kidnapping. The latter are just less likely to be overthrown and convicted by the new new system. I don't aim to delegitimize or trivialize his notable accomplishment, just wanted to add the other things history remembers him for. InedibleHulk (talk) 14:11, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Bob Baxt

Bob Baxt is listed as Chinese-born, but I'm not convinced he has ever been Chinese. His parents were, to my knowledge, Russian Jews who had settled in Shanghai. I remember a similar case from a few months back, and we ended up on nationality at birth was what should be listed, and not country of birth. Nukualofa (talk) 10:43, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

His article states his country of birth as being China, though it doesn't confirm whether that was as a national or as a child born to parents of another nationality who were working or residing in a temporary geographical location, carrying out diplomatic or military occupations, or appointments of that kind. Although I suspect he was a foreign-born Australian national, until that is clarified within his article or within a useable source, I would concede that the "Chinese-born" listing is not an incorrect description, as it stands. Ref ^(chew)(do) 13:12, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

The top link here from the Sydney Morning Herald says "Baxt's parents were Russian Jews who, like many, took the train east Baxt was born in Shanghai, and at age eight came with his parents to Australia, ...". You need to sign up to read the actual article. China practices mainly jus sanguinis, meaning his parents would have to be Chinese for him to be Chinese. However, if they were stateless or of undetermined nationality (the latter which they were not), or if they were naturalized citizens of China, which is a possibility, he could have been born Chinese. His parents likely fled from the Russian revolution in 1917. Reading about Jews in China gives no clear answer. Nukualofa (talk) 14:55, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

March 14: John Ludwick

John Ludwick, listed at March 14, is not notable. He's only mentioned by first name at his only claim to fame and, most importantly, was not a "criminal", as his entry states. He was a friend of a murder suspect who reportedly paid him to help dispose of a body. Not convicted, not jailed, just a complicit friend.[1] Should be yanked, although a shining example of karma being a bitch. — Wyliepedia @ 10:10, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Agree completely. Let's have some more input then. Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:18, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

I am the one that put it in because of a couple of points although I care neither way- #1 the Holloway Case was a major news event involving 3 countries after the serial killer whacked someone in Brazil and was finally brought to justice. It was probably the next big murder/kidnapping after Jon Benet. It had international intrigue. It had rich v. poor. Young, pretty white girl. All the great elements of a story. #2 Ludwick was represented in 2 or 3 of the biopics on the case and on VanderSloot for TV and movies. They were friends and went to school together. He was on the island at the time it happened. #3 He led police to a body. It turns out that it wasn't Holloway's but it was a body. That said...as far as criminal...disposing bodies, robbing people in driveways, these are typically things associated with criminal activity. If you want to change it to American figure involved in Holloway murder/kidnapping, I am OK with that. I don't understand why people have the social hang ups with criminals and suicides (and this isn't directed at you just in general and a recurring theme around here). It is stuff that happens. People are people there are good and bad. Certain people do things to make a living on the wild side or do things like stay in power. That doesn't mean that they are an out and out terrible person past redemption. However, it is what they are known for, which is what we are documenting with sources. If you tell me John down the street robbed my elderly neighbor next door in her driveway, I will tell you that he is a criminal...because he is. Disposing of bodies at lightest is hindering an investigation and it would run the gamut to accessory after the fact depending on the facts...either way it is a crime.Sunnydoo (talk) 16:17, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

As far as notability, do i expect an article? No, probably just a footnote in the Holloway disappearance page. However, there are close to 50 stories right now ([2]) already written about him and Holloway. So there is some notoriety there. I just dont want to go down the road of how famous is famous...let the clock run for 30 days.Sunnydoo (talk) 17:52, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Because BLP has a laundry list of pitfalls (tabloid, "criminal", one event). However, I see our resident redirecter has made him a blue link, even though there still is no full mention of him at his one event. Thirty days it is, then. — Wyliepedia @ 19:17, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

But in this instance, the subject in question is the one whom admitted it so it wouldnt be a violation of BLP. Secondly, he did so to the police and there is an official account.Sunnydoo (talk) 19:22, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

I've only read he told a TV show. A TV show with producers being sued for making things up, no less. Have you read something I haven't? InedibleHulk (talk) 22:44, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

If he's staying, at least avoid the ambiguous and almost non-descript "figure" slanguage. I've put "person" - any better descriptions? Ref ^(chew)(do) 20:25, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Maybe try "subject" or "subject of investigation in the." "American person" sounds kind of silly to me....or belongs in a song...he was an American person, who was burstin' to do bad. He helped bury a girl who became famous when he was a lad. yada yada yada.Sunnydoo (talk) 20:33, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

I turned the figureperson into an American claimant of involvement, should've guessed there was a Talk Page section. It's not exactly a common descriptor, but I don't think it's confusing, either. I'd earlier called him an "attempted kidnapper", which was much more awkward. Glad it's gone. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:06, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Suicide, Homicide and Accidental Death

Maybe I am wrong but we always list suicides then cause. Don't we also list Homicides if they are in a traditional area of death from accidents? So if someone is hung by someone else isnt that Homicide by Hanging as opposed to just hanging of a typical accident (or suicide by hanging in the case of suicide)? Or say someone shoots themselves cleaning a gun...instead of homicide or suicide wouldnt that by accidental shooting? It has come up with the latest victim in London from the Cold War Shenanigans. Coroner has ruled "Homicide by Neck Compression", so shouldn't we list that as such because neck compression is usually of the accidental variety except in the very obvious cases of strangulation.Sunnydoo (talk) 20:42, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

People's necks are relatively quite rarely compressed by accident or natural causes. Normally a homicide or suicide. The absence of "suicide by" makes homicide clear enough, I think. People accidentally shoot or stab themselves now and then, too, but "shot" and "stabbed" are likewise good enough. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:51, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Natural Causes is a whole different set of causes. Car accidents especially in the old days used to cause frequent deaths from neck compressions in particular the seat belts were a big issue...one reason why many people didnt use them. The days of air bags have lessened that but it is still quite possible. Compression can be strangulation but it also can be spinal cord trauma that disrupts the CN system or it can cause circulatory problems by either stopping blood flow (what happens when someone puts you in a sleeper hold) or actually severing some of the blood vessels. Kind of perplexing what to do here.Sunnydoo (talk) 20:58, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

If seatbelts haven't killed people like this since Wikipedia came along, it doesn't matter if it's still theoretically possible. In such cases, we could simply clarify "neck compression by seatbelt" or note something to the effect of "traffic collision". General audiences generally default to assuming what isn't far-fetched, I find. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:03, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

In 2000, a department of forensic medicine in Tokyo wrote about the only case it knew of a diagonal seatbelt squeezing a neck to death in a rollover, if that helps understand the rarity. InedibleHulk (talk) 21:14, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

My opinion is that it should be listed as "homicide by neck compression", to avoid confusion and misinterpretations. Vague manners alone should be avoided, but manners in combination with other details are informative. In my opinion, both suicide and homicide should be acceptable as stand-alone manners. 123.51.64.122 23:21, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Just saw now that I didn't sign with my username. It was me. Nukualofa (talk) 16:23, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Gordon Walgren

I added information with a citation to the Gordon Walgren article that he served briefly in the Washington House of Representatives in 1966 just before he served in the Washington Senate. I tried adding this to the information to the article's info box and it never appeared in the info box; is there something I am doing wrong? Thank you-RFD (talk) 12:16, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

You're asking the wrong talk page - you need to go to the Gordon Walgren talk page for general guidance on adding to their infobox. The Deaths pages don't have infoboxes. Thanks. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:16, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Bento the Keyboard Cat - March 8, 2018

Hi. This is certainly bending the rules, if not breaking them ("All non-human/animal deaths added to the page MUST have their own article"). It doesn't - it has a redirect to a dubious and vague section on keyboard cat(s) who are NOT the main subject keyboard cat of that article - 'a female cat called "Fatso"' - Bento gets a two-line mention and the article is definitely not about him. Ref ^(chew)(do) 19:21, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Removed, needs OWN article. WWGB (talk) 20:57, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Uzbek : Uzbekistani

Hi. I'm having a lot of trouble keeping the correct term in context for the entry for Dilbar Abdurahmonova on the 20th. There are clear indications from internet research that Uzbek is a reference to an historic set of ethnic people who also populate areas outside of modern Uzbekistan, and that the correct description for someone of whatever assorted lineage who is born within the actual country but does not necessarily come from the precise ethnic group of Uzbeks is "Uzbekistani" (as also backed up in the subject's own Wikipedia article). We should use the longer term in this case, and certainly avoid using Uzbek in order to disambig from the wider ethnic meaning. Is this so difficult to process? Ref ^(chew)(do) 15:57, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Here is the confusion on Wiki- the Uzbeks are the people, Uzbek is the Demonym. WWGB states we always have to go by the Demonym [3]. So it should be Uzbek and whomever is saying that is correct.Sunnydoo (talk) 16:58, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

The one weird thing about demonyms is that Americans use different ones than Europeans...we tend to -ian things instead of shorten like the Europeans...so you will see us enter Argentinian, Slovenian, Saudi Arabian or Slovakian whereas the Europeans would use Argentine, Slovak, Saudi or Slovene. It is enough to give one a headache.Sunnydoo (talk) 17:25, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

If you're changing it back to Uzbek, be aware that the spread of the ethnic version outside of Uzbekistan is very significant and does not relate to citizenship of the country, and also have a word on the subject article's Talk page about their use of Uzbekistani (check it out). "WWGB says" is not a reasoned argument, by the way, and consensus can be rebuilt at any time. I would call this an exception, purely because of the ambiguous ethnic use versus the national use. I've used up my reverts, so what will be will be from here. Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:00, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Demonyms do not always clearly distinguish place of origin or ethnicity from place of residence or citizenship; ergo, "Uzbekistani". "Uzbek" is seemingly a neologism for this page (for brevity's sake), which shouldn't happen. — Wyliepedia @ 11:54, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

For the record, we use the adjectival form and not the demonym. In many cases, they are the same: "Donald Trump is an American" (demonym) versus "Donald Trump is an American man" (adjective). In other cases they are different: "Jacinda Ardern is a New Zealander" (demonym) versus "Jacinda Ardern is a New Zealand woman" (adjective). The full list is at List of adjectival and demonymic forms for countries and nations. That list reports that Uzbekistani and Uzbek are both correct adjectives. WWGB (talk) 23:59, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

I still believe that, for disambiguation purposes, Uzbek should not be used as a national descriptor here when so many of the ethnic Uzbek descendants live outside of the country. That has been my whole point on this entry as a one-off. Other future entries would need to be judged individually as to any similar possible confusions of course. Ref ^(chew)(do) 07:07, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2018

Could I have David Cooper's entry, listed in March 18, amended to the below please? His age is wrong and his primary role was as Director of the Kirby Institute.

David Cooper, 68, Australian immunologist and medical researcher (HIV), Director of the Kirby Institute, UNSW Sydney (1986-2018), President of the International AIDS Society (1994–1998). --Kirbycomms (talk) 03:45, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Age has been fixed.Sunnydoo (talk) 04:09, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Is there a reason why you have left his position as Director off?--Kirbycomms (talk) 01:13, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Your user name suggests you have a vested interest in the Kirby Institute. Best stay uninvolved. WWGB (talk) 01:25, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Flores' fall

From my reading of his citation, he died directly from falling off a horse and hurting his head and neck. There were no complications beyond life support prolonging death. Which do you prefer? InedibleHulk (talk) 01:44, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Even by the new source, "Flores was taken to Aria Jefferson Torresdale Hospital in Philadelphia but never regained consciousness. An organ donor, he was kept on life support while his parents traveled from Florida to say their goodbyes and until a time could be coordinated with surgeons and organ recipients." This isn't like when you break your leg and develop a fatal blood clot. This is just delayed death. His agent says he "died doing what he loved", presumably meaning racing rather than having his machine switched off. InedibleHulk (talk) 01:47, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Jessica Falkholt didn't die in her "traffic collision", but after her life support was switched off a month later. Ergo... — Wyliepedia @ 08:59, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Not a similar story. She lasted five more days without the machine, because she had natural life left in her. Flores was already essentially dead from the fall, and once switched off, didn't stick around. InedibleHulk (talk) 00:32, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

You say potato... — Wyliepedia @ 05:46, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

I say a lot of things. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:57, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Carmel McSharry

Chiswick has an approximate population of over 30, 000 people. Though unlikely it’s not impossible for there to be a second Carmel McSharry. This source only says a name, no specifics like age, nationality, occupation. That’s why I feel it can’t be used because it only bears a name. Rusted AutoParts 18:18, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Some Twitter accounts posted about her death during the last days. Plus, Carmel McSharry does not seem a common name by any logic and she resided in a small town. 100% her. Hope some proper obit is written, but as Cyril Frankel case demonstrated, this does not always happen. --Folengo (talk) 15:26, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

I encourage you to undo your revert as it’s a disputed addition and should be discussed before you continue adding it back in. Rusted AutoParts 15:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Any second opinions are welcome. If I’m overthinking this or something. Rusted AutoParts 17:39, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Not been happy with the quality of the source since McSharry was added. It's an unattached name in a bulletin. And if there's a concrete Twitter link to her death, bring it to the table - don't just hearsay "some Twitter accounts". Exact verbatim Twitter links have been known to grant a stay of execution on certain entries recently. Show up, or leave her out until something concrete and clearly valid indicates that this is the Carmel McSharry of past notability. I for one am happier with it removed as it stands. Ref ^(chew)(do) 18:03, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Want to use this at all? https://twitter.com/i/web/status/977179196027015168 Cart before horse, though, would be if "John Williams" (who he?) actually gleaned this information from the entry you just removed! Ref ^(chew)(do) 21:41, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Eh, he’s got only a 1000+ followers and isn’t verified. I’d rather use the social media of family members/news to confirm deaths. Rusted AutoParts 22:20, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Case closed. Proper source came through confirming it was the actress and with a date of death included. Rusted AutoParts 15:35, 27 March 2018 (UTC)