Talk:DeAndre Brackensick

Restoring the Article

Based on the discussion that took place, I can understand the administrator's decision to close this article's AfD nomination as a redirect. That said, without pointing fingers, I'm afraid that those editors who participated in the AfD discussion must not have researched the article's subject very thoroughly before voting. The article was redirected on the basis that Brackensick had supposedly only received significant news coverage for his appearance on American Idol. Personally, I feel that significant coverage in multiple reliable sources, spread out over the course of several months, should be enough to demonstrate notability, even if the subject is only notable for being featured in a television series. But I realize that many editors disagree with me on this.

What's concerning is that at the time of the AfD, Brackensick had received significant news coverage for more than just appearing on American Idol. He had already been signed to a label and released a single, titled "Her Crazy". This single was discussed in articles published by Yahoo!, SFGate, The York Dispatch, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, and MidWeek (possibly among others).

I've decided to restore the article on the basis of this coverage. If anyone wants to discuss the matter further, please ping me or drop a message on my talk page. Thanks! --Jpcase (talk) 04:29, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Bradv has contested my decision to restore the page, and I concede that I shouldn't have tried to do so unilaterally. I apologize for getting ahead of my self. I also want to stress that I'm not looking to criticize anyone who was involved with the AfD. I feel quite strongly that Brackensick's article never should have been redirected. But I realize that there are a lot of different opinions out there when it comes to the notability of reality show contestants, and I respect that all of the editors involved with the AfD were simply trying to determine the most suitable outcome for this article. That said, I hope that we can come to an agreement that significant coverage does exist for Brackensick's post-Idol life and career. I'm not sure why these didn't come up during the AfD, but here's what I've been able to find:

About his single:

• Yahoo! - Idol DeAndre Brackensick Drops the "Brackensick," Drops Debut Single
• The York Dispatch - DeAndre Brackensick Releases His 1st Single
• The York Dispatch - DeAndre Proclaims 'Her Crazy' On Video, Too
• The Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel - Mequon native Kevin Sucher, former Gerard member, runs new record label

Profiles of Brackensick written a full year after his American Idol appearance:

• SFGate - 'American Idol' finalist shares his 'aloha with soul'
• MidWeek - Hawaiian At Heart

Profile of Brackensick written just last year (three years after his American Idol appearance):

• Campbelltown MacArthur Advertiser - Former Idol visits Campbelltown

Although Brackensick's single was mentioned in the article at the time of the AfD, none of these sources were included. I feel that these sources should demonstrate clear notability and hope that the article can be restored. I've discussed the matter with the closing administrator, Samwalton9, who advised me to ping everyone involved with the Afd - something I realize I should have done in the first place. @John from Idegon: @Piotrus: @CoffeeWithMarkets: @SwisterTwister: @Bearian: @Onel5969: @Spirit of Eagle: --Jpcase (talk) 21:14, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

This is by far still too trivial and unconvincing for establishing his own actual notability as he is in fact still only best known as a show contestant. It's far too soon and is thus unnecessary as it's own article. SwisterTwister talk 21:35, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

@SwisterTwister: Brackensick may still be best known for being a reality show contestant, but if a musical artist who hadn't appeared on American Idol released a single that received coverage in the above sources, then that would be a clear sign of notability. I'm not sure why we would hold former-reality show contestants to a higher standard. --Jpcase (talk) 21:41, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

This isn't the correct forum to be discussing this. WP:DRV is where you need to take this discussion. Bradv mentioned that in his edit summary when he reverted back to the redirect, unfortunately he linked to Dispute Resolution (WP:DR), rather than deletion review. If you choose to go that direction, which I don't recommend, since I feel it will be a waste of time, I'll make my comments known there. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 21:50, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Right, I should have linked to WP:DRV. Dispute resolution is not the way to go on this. That was my mistake in suggesting that.

Also, can I just point, yet again, to WP:BAND? Particularly the following:

2. Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart.

8. Has won first, second or third place in a major music competition.

His single has not charted, and he came in 8th on American Idol. Under what criteria would you suggest this passes WP:NMUSIC? Bradv 21:57, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

@Onel5969: I've spoken with Bradv on his talk page. I would have taken this to WP:Deletion Review in the first place, but according to WP:DRVPURPOSE, that forum "should not be used because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment." I have no issue with how the administrator, Samwalton9 handled the matter. Based on the conversation that took place, closing the AfD as a redirect was absolutely the correct call. So Deletion Review doesn't seem to be the proper venue for discussing this. I'd love to hear your thoughts though. --Jpcase (talk) 22:01, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

@BradV: WP:NMUSIC doesn't require that an article's subject meet all of those criteria. If that were the case, than countless professional musical artists wouldn't be considered notable. WP:BAND states that an artist "may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria". You're right that Brackensick doesn't meet criteria #2 or #8, but he does meet criteria #1 (which is by far the most important), #4, and #12. WP:NMUSIC isn't meant as some sort of stringent test, making notability harder to attain for musical artists than other types of individuals. Several editors seem to interpret it as such though, and I can't say that I understand why. WP:NMUSIC is simply meant as a guideline for giving editors some sense of what kind of accomplishments may lead to an artist attaining notability - if an artist meets at least one of those criteria, than there's a good chance that reliable sources exist covering that artist. If an artist fails to meet any of the criteria, than there's a good chance that coverage in reliable sources does not exist. But at the end of the day, it all comes back down to to quality sourcing. WP:Notability simply requires that significant coverage from reliable sources independent of the subject exist - the notability of musical artists shouldn't be governed by any stricter criteria than is in place for other topic areas. --Jpcase (talk) 22:21, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Then you should have no problem convincing the folks at WP:DRV. That's where this discussion needs to go. Bradv 23:08, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

@Bradv: As I stated in my response to onel5969 above, WP:DRV doesn't seem to be the proper venue for this, since I don't have any issues with how the closing administrator handled things. DRV doesn't appear to be for just any followup on AfDs; it's primarily meant for instances in which an article was actually deleted (as opposed to redirected) or in which the closing administrator of an AfD misinterpreted the consensus. Or at least, that's the impression I'm getting from WP:DRVPURPOSE. Perhaps in practice, the forum works differently, in which case I have no problem opening the discussion there. If you still think that it's a good idea, then I'll go ahead and do so. --Jpcase (talk) 23:20, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

It is. Bradv 23:24, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Alright! Then it's off to WP:DRV! Thanks for being willing to discuss this with me. :) --Jpcase (talk) 23:25, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

I've opened a discussion at WP:Deletion Review#DeAndre Brackensick. --Jpcase (talk) 01:56, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

A new discussion has been opened at Talk:American Idol (season 11)#RfC on DeAndre Brackensick standalone article. --Jpcase (talk) 01:22, 21 December 2016 (UTC)