Talk:Criminal Lawyer (1937 film)

Need for (film) modifier

Hi. I set up the article with the modifier (film), [[User:|Roman Spinner]] removed the modifier, since the 1937 film was the only article with that name. BD2412 objected to this, and changed the dab page back to a redirect (which is clearly incorrect, regardless of the outcome). I could give a rat's ass whether the article is title Criminal Lawyer (film) or simply Criminal Lawyer, but the incomplete changes BD made cause quite a bit of issues with pages which link to this. I'm reverting them. If the consensus is that the article should have the "film" modifier, please have the courtesy to make all the changes on the pages which link to it.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Onel5969 (talk) • contribs) 02:06, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The sole article bearing the title Criminal Lawyer is the one delineating the 1937 film. Thus, there is no need for the modifier "(film)". All the film links go to Criminal Lawyer. There is also a redirect, Criminal lawyer, which redirects to the article, Criminal defense lawyer. All the links relating to the topic of criminal defense go to either Criminal defense lawyer or to the redirect Criminal lawyer. Thus, there is no confusion regarding incoming links. The hatnote at the film Criminal Lawyer directs users to the article Criminal defense lawyer, thus negating any confusion between the two. Per WP:TWO DABS, there is no need for a disambiguation page since both articles are clearly titled and both have a hatnote to the other. No user should be confused. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 04:58, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 4 July 2018

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed with respect to the first proposal; not moved with respect to the second. There is a clear consensus in favor of moving the film, and a roughly even consensus against moving the disambiguation page. bd2412 T 11:49, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

• Criminal Lawyer → Criminal Lawyer (1937 film)
• Criminal lawyer (disambiguation) → Criminal lawyer

– In May 2018, three-and-a-half years after the above September 2014 discussion, "Need for (film) modifier", the entry for Criminal Lawyer (1951 film) was created. As of this writing, Criminal lawyer redirects to Criminal defense lawyer but, most intuitively, it should be the main header of this disambiguation page which does not have the exact term "Criminal lawyer" as its WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.     Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:38, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support moves per rationale given above. ONR (talk) 22:55, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
• Strongly support 1st; neutral on 2nd. It seems there's no primary topic (especially between the films) for "Criminal Lawyer" in caps, but I'm neutral on whether a criminal defense lawyer would be the primary for sentence-case "criminal lawyer" as it currently redirects. Paintspot Infez (talk) 23:14, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support 1st. Neutral 2nd. With the recently created Criminal Lawyer (1951 film), there is a definite need for a dab qualifier, and since there is another film with the same name, the year is now needed. However, the dab in it's current form seems perfectly fine, but Paintspot's rationale seems valid. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 23:42, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support 1st per above. Oppose 2nd since criminal defense lawyer appears to be the WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT for sentence case "criminal lawyer". E.g. Google Books hits for "criminal lawyer" are virtually all about defense lawyers (with the exception of one novel which uses it in the sense of "lawyer who's also a criminal). I can find none using it to mean "prosecutor". Title case Criminal Lawyer should probably point to Criminal lawyer (disambiguation) though, treating the WP:DIFFCAPS as a sort of incomplete attempt at natural disambiguation. 59.149.124.29 (talk) 01:05, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Those seeking to research the subject of attorneys who defend clients accused of criminal offenses, may type Criminal defense lawyer and access the article directly. They may also type Defence lawyer, Defence lawyers, Defense lawyer, Defense lawyers, Defense attorney (Defence attorney redirects, as of this writing, to Lawyer), Defense council, Criminal lawyer, Criminal lawyers, Criminal attorney, Criminal defense attorney, Criminal defence lawyer, Criminal defence lawyers and Criminal defense lawyers and be redirected to Criminal defense lawyer.

These additional redirects all flow to Lawyer: Counselor at law, Trial lawyer, Trial lawyers, Trial attorney, Prosecution lawyer, Legal practitioner, Legal practitioners, Legal counsel, In-house counsel, In house counsel, Corporate Counsel, Company lawyer and Professional attorneys association.

None of the above redirects, however, are main title headers of disambiguation pages. Since the two films are titled Criminal Lawyer, that could be the other option for the main header of the dab page, instead of the option offered in the nomination. Criminal lawyer would then redirect to the dab page's main header Criminal Lawyer. Those users who decide to type Criminal lawyer instead of all the other above options, will still see Criminal defense attorney at the top of the dab page, while those searching for one of the two films will not have to search any further.    Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 05:52, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

The question here is not "how many other redirects point to lawyer or criminal defense lawyer" (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS), but what a person who types "criminal lawyer" is likely to be looking for (WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT). 59.149.124.29 (talk) 07:11, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

• Support both, with Criminal Lawyer redirecting to the disambig page at Crimial lawyer. Dicklyon (talk) 06:26, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support both In ictu oculi (talk) 08:17, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
• Support first move, oppose second. Since there are two films by this name, they need to be disambiguated. However, the first few pages of Google results supports that the primary meaning of criminal lawyer is a criminal defense lawyer. It seems no one really calls a jailhouse lawyer a criminal lawyer, and it is very rare for a prosecutor to be called a criminal lawyer. The page views for criminal defense lawyer are 98% of views for the remaining titles.--CNMall41 (talk) 20:58, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.