Talk:Counterweight (novel)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 16:22, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

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• ... that cyberpunk novel Counterweight is the English debut of South Korean writer Djuna? Source: any of the four cited
  • ALT1: ... that South Korean cyberpunk novel Counterweight features concepts such as artificial intelligence and space elevator? Source: ditto
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Krasowo-Częstki massacre

Created by Piotrus (talk). Self-nominated at 04:03, 6 December 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Counterweight (novel); consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Honestly, I don't think either of these hooks is interesting enough for DYK. (And "space elevator" isn't a mass noun, so would need a leadingi "a".)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  10:08, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
• @Piotrus: Can you please provide new hooks? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 10:04, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
  • I can't think of anything else. If someone thinks the hook is not very interesting, they should come up with an alternative. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:50, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the article, I can't really think of any good hook either. The review quotes don't seem to work as material, and the only thing that I could really think of (about it being based on a 10-year old movie script draft) isn't remarkable in the grand scheme of things. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 11:33, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I took a quick look, and nothing jumps out at me either; I suggest that this is one of those fairly frequent cases where an article that is valuable to the encyclopedia nonetheless is a poor fit for DYK. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:13, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

• Per the above comments and Vanamonde's opinion, it doesn't seem like a suitable hook can be proposed for this one so unfortunately the nomination is now marked for closure. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 23:11, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Narutolovehinata5, I do not agree. I find the proposed hook interesting enough. This is a subjective view and we should not decline hooks because someone thinks mentions of space elevator and AIs are not interesting enough. I am approaching 1k DYKs and this would be the first time I've seen a hook declined for that, it is very demotivating. Ping BlueMoonset. PS. If you want something weird, we could mention the extreme anonymity of the author, who is only known under pseudonym, and who appears in public using a full body suit. I can't find a ref for the latter (I read it somewhere) but all sources comment, if briefly, on their anonymity (name, gender is unknown to the public). That said, it is not something directly related to to the book. In either case, we can add the word pseudonymous to the hook preceeding Djuna, making it more interesting. Would that be a fair compromise? Another alt hook could be made by expanding my ALT0, stressing that their debut in English is importnat because (from their bio): "Since the 1990s, Djuna has been one of the most prolific and important writers in the South Korean science fiction field. Djuna been described as "a literary giant in Korea"." I.e. they are a major Korean writer, debuting in English just now with that work. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:31, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

If you are approaching a thousand DYKs, this would be just a minor setback and shouldn't prevent you from creating or improving articles to reach that goal. Not all articles are good fits for DYK, and the idea you're proposing (that the author is a big deal in Korea) would be specialist knowledge, and even adding it to the hook wouldn't necessarily make it more interesting. As for the anonymity thing, that may be more appropriate for a hook about the author, but not the book itself. In any case, given that three separate editors have come to the conclusion that none of the hooks are interesting, it appears that there is simply no consensus for either hook to run. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:00, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

See ALT0a below. It should be interesting enough. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:06, 19 January 2024 (UTC) PS. Also @SMcCandlish and Vanamonde93:. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:07, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@Narutolovehinata5: ALT0a: ... that cyberpunk novel Counterweight is the English debut of South Korean pseudonymous writer Djuna, described as "a literary giant in Korea"?

I disagree. The mentions in the article appear to have been added simply to make this hook work, but in reality the information should instead be in the author's article. The hook is marginally better than the original but it's not really that interesting: it is not uncommon for "literary giants" of any country to have their works be untranslated. It may be better to let this nomination go: as Vanamonde93 said, not all articles are good fits for DYK, and the energy spent here could instead be directed towards more suitable articles. I understand a nomination being rejected is tough and we've all had that experiences, but as editors, we have to move on from such demotivations. They're just setbacks in the grand scheme of things, what's important is how we learn from them and move on. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:15, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

How about ALT2: ... the sci-fi novel Counterweight explores how South Korean family-owned conglomerates (chaebols) could evolve in the far future? I think this is pretty interesting. toobigtokale (talk) 04:15, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

No objection, sounds good to me, although we probably have room to mention stuff from ALT0 (debut by Djuna). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 04:40, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

The issue with ALT2 is that it might fall afoul of WP:DYKFICTION since it is primarily about the plot of the work. Adding the author stuff is probably not going to work because, not only is it probably superfulous, but I also remember there being some kind of discussion before that simply reframing such a hook by including real-life elements like including the author does not sufficiently meet the criterion. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:06, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

DYKFICTION, as stated in the lead of that article is just a subjective guide that does not need to be observed. It is also so vague I wonder who and when added it. Can you link to a discussion or vote where there was a consensus to add this weird rule, which seems very unfair for those of us writing about fiction? PS. Based on this, it seems to be just a personal opnion of a single editor, added without citing an consensus. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:23, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm a bit surprised that an editor who has been on DYK for several years and has almost a thousand DYK hooks would consider the real-world criterion "odd" as it's been a long-standing rule. I cannot find when and where this rule was put in place, but a search seemed to suggest it was already in place back in 2010 and my guess is that it was implemented earlier than that. In any case, for what it's worth, there have been discussions in the past to relax or modify the rule and the proposals were rejected by consensus (I remember proposing one such discussion myself but I can't seem to find it right now). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 05:32, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

You are are correct, and I found the relevant discussions, including your criticism of it (sadly not endorsed by the majority). Out of curiosity, I checked my DYKs and it seems the newer ones meet DYKFICTION, although I wasn't trying to do intentionally; several, however, do so by mentioning something about the writer. I fail to see how the alt0 about this being debut is less interesting then for example "that Polish science fiction novel Extensa marked the growing recognition of its writer" (promoted by User:Gerda Arendt), or "that The Gospel of Afranius, a 1995 Russian novel and polemic challenging an American evangelical apologist text, has not yet been translated to English", promoted by User:Guerillero). Seriously, the fact that a novel is an English debut of a major author is, to me, quite interesting, related to the novel, and passing DYKFICTION. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:15, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Well given that three separate editors objected to ALT0, it doesn't seem that other editors share your opinion about the "English debut of a notable writer" being interesting to a broad audience. As such, there doesn't appear to be consensus for it, so any approvals of it or variants thereof would be going against consensus. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 12:25, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Coming by ping, and with no time to read all of this: the original hook is real world (not only plot), and I could approve it, but I think that there's more potential in getting something from a review (notable reviews!), and I'd mention the 2023 English translation of a 2021 novel. In the article, I miss an infobox, and could imagine level-3 headers for the very short paragraphs, or fewer headers. - Piotrus, I'm busy with a Polish composer, Rom, can you perhaps help? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt. Thank you. I can add an infobox if this is approved, np. And I can probably help with "Rom" - what do you need exactly? (As the latter is off topic, perhaps stop by my talk page for that?) --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:14, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Was thinking of reviewing but I thought it might be worthwhile throwing some alts into the mix that caught my eye reading through the sources:

ALT3: ... that Anti-Korean sentiment, due to South Korea's economic growth, motivated the author Djuna to write the sci-fi novel Counterweight?

ALT4: ... that despite Djuna's desire to move away from the influence of western sci-fi authors, they considered the novel Counterweight to be a pastiche of their works?

Seddon ^talk 13:13, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

ALT3 is probably the best option among the two new proposals. ALT4 might still be too specialist or reliant on knowledge of the author. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 13:20, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Seddon, you seem to have the gift to please Narutolovehinata5. Would you take a look at the nom for Tamara Milashkina? Her name (only) was on the Main page and attracted more than 8k+ views that day, so please nobody tell me that only specialists would be interested in her. - The composer mentioned above is on the Main page now, in the Recent deaths section where a review just means checking if a biography is detailed enough and sourced throughout. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:28, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

• ALT0a is interesting to me. I would like to know more seeing that this is their English debut despite success in Korean. I might mention that it is their nth novel. I would also accept ALT3. @Narutolovehinata5: you got your review in. Please let other people take a look at things. --Guerillero^{Parlez Moi} 16:59, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you, Guerillero. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:28, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

  • A new reviewer for the hooks would seem to be in order at this time. BlueMoonset (talk) 17:09, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
    • New enough, long enough, QPQ done. Approving Alt3. --evrik ^(talk) 19:30, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
      • evrik, your edit summary says "Pass", but a pass doesn't occur unless the appropriate "Approved" icon is used. Please do so if that's what you mean by your review. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:34, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
      • D'oh. --evrik ^(talk) 19:40, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

The article, and the DYK hook based on it, get the facts exactly backwards.

The novel wasn't motivated by chauvinism against Koreans, as the article claims, but by chauvinism of Koreans against other nations - that is what Djuna says in the Wired interview, but the Wiki editor has apparently misunderstood the sentence and arrived at exactly the opposite meaning.

The DYK says: 'Did you know that anti-Korean sentiment, due to South Korea's economic growth, motivated Djuna to write the sci-fi novel Counterweight'?

This is based on a part of the text of the article, which says: 'Djuna's motivation behind the novel was rooted in the exploration of Korea's relationship with other neighbouring countries in Southeast Asia, particularly as the country's growth has led to the surfacing of historic prejudices against it'.

But that sentence is sourced to the interview in Wired, and in it Djuna actually says the following: 'The most important thing for me was to deeply consider the relationship between Korea and the Southeast Asian countries. Until fairly recently Korea was like an isolated island, with no wherewithal to think about other countries. But the world has changed, our neighboring countries have become closer, and Korea has become something of an “advanced nation” — which led latent prejudices regarding other (emphasis mine) Asian nations to become clearer and more violently present. I find this extremely alarming, as its mechanism is similar to the Japanese’s entrenched hate towards Koreans. These forces also serve as the constituency for Korea’s far-right government.'

In other words, Djuna claims to have been motivated not by prejudices in other Asian nations against Korea, but by prejudices in Korea against other (specifically Southeast) Asian nations. Djuna isn't worried by, say, actual Japanese xenophobes' anti-Korean sentiment, but by Korean far-right xenophobes having an attitude that resembles that of Japanese xenophobes. And indeed this makes sense: Djuna says this tendency is the result of Korea becoming an 'advanced country', and 'advanced countries' are typically not the target of prejudices - 'developing countries' are. Also, the story is apparently about a Korean corporation exploiting a poorer Asian nation - thus, it's primarily about Koreans being unfair to others, not about others being unfair to Koreans (by not letting them exploit others to their heart's content just like Westerners have done). 62.73.69.121 (talk) 21:39, 27 January 2024 (UTC)