Talk:Convention of Alessandria

Signed by the Habsburg Empire, not the Archduchy of Austria

The article is written (as at 28 January 2019) in such a way to say that the treaty was signed by France and the Archduchy of Austria. Treaties in those days were signed by sovereigns. So, it would have been signed on behalf of Emperor Francis II, in his capacity as the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire rather than as the Archduke of Austria. His realm was known as Austria for short, but as can be seen in Marengo Order of Battle article, all lands ruled by the Habsburgs were present at the battle of Marengo. For this reason, I have changed the reference from Archduchy of Austria to Austria, to be consistent with the article Battle of Marengo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zixt2010 (talk • contribs) 14:20, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Break

Dumelow: I've been flipping through a bunch of sources for this, none of which have been completely incorporated... Likely I will not get back to working on this in-depth until next weekend maybe? Potential for much expansion exists in the Convention and Aftermath sections. Let me know if you have any questions about what I've done. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 22:31, 16 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi Eddie891. It looks like you are doing excellent work on this, with a wide range of sources and images. Unfortunately I haven't had much time on here recently, I'll perhaps try to drop in and do some copyediting or something but don't think I can contribute much more than that. Keep up the good work! - Dumelow (talk) 15:56, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

• Dumelow: might be ready to move out to mainspace soon... not sure what else to add. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:40, 25 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi Eddie891. Looks good to me. I did a little bit of copyediting, but feel free to revert any of my changes. Happy for you to move it into the mainspace whenever you like - Dumelow (talk) 18:36, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

• Dumelow:created. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 16:02, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi Eddie891, sorry for my lack of input to this, I have been away over the Christmas period. Thanks for your excellent work on this article and for moving it to mainspace. I've watchlisted the GA nomination so should be able to help out when that gets going - Dumelow (talk) 12:05, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Unused sources

https://books.google.com/books?id=qW4OAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA594&dq=%22Convention+of+Alessandria%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVzdiVzaTfAhWCy4MKHdFxAN8Q6AEIWTAJ#v=onepage&q=%22Convention%20of%20Alessandria%22&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=tdIkI_xrqi4C&pg=PA23&dq=Convention+of+Alessandria&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjKjpSS2qXfAhUH7IMKHSvrBCYQ6AEIPzAD#v=onepage&q=Convention%20of%20Alessandria&f=false

B class review comment

Thanks for a much-needed addition to the Napoleonic Wars history. I assessed this as B class. However, it really needs an Infobox Treaty. Please see Template:Infobox treaty. Djmaschek (talk) 05:30, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Convention of Alessandria/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Gog the Mild (talk · contribs) 00:30, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Images

• Could you provide a source for the map. Ie in the same way you would for a prose statement of fact. (The way this is handled in File:Guyenne 1328-en.svg is one possible approach.)

• Source added. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 01:04, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

• The map could do with a title.

• added in the article (I think). Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 01:04, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Prose

I have done a little copy editing. Feel free to bring anything you are not happy with back here for discussion.

All of my suggestions are just that. Feel free to tackle anything I have commented on in your own way, or to tell me why you think I am wrong.

• Note 1. "a treaty of peace" is a little odd. Consider 'a peace treaty'.

Y Agreed and changed - Dumelow (talk) 13:27, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

• Note 2. "Saint-Julien was intended to buy the Austrian empire time". Seems to be missing a start, eg 'The despatch of' or similar.

Y I've reworded the first sentence of this footnote - Dumelow (talk) 13:27, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

• As Djmaschek notes, this really needs an infobox. This is not a requirement, but a strong recommendation. You could do it in 15-20 minutes. I will even do it for you if you ask me nicely .

• Thanks for the offer, but I thought that I had already added it... are there other parameters you would like me to add? Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:15, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

• "The War of the Second Coalition was the second war on revolutionary France by the European monarchies" "on" -> 'against'.

•  Done Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:15, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

• Were all of the nations you list at war with France in both wars?

• Clarified Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:15, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

• Optional. "In 1799, Napoleon Bonaparte began an Italian Campaign" 'a campaign in Italy'.

• from what I've seen, they are generally referred to as his "italian campaigns" Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:15, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

  Removed by Dumelow Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:12, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• "Towards the end of the day, the French overcame the Austrian surprise attack, driving them out of Italy and consolidating Napoleon's political position in Paris as First Consul of France in the wake of his coup d’état the previous November." This sentence is trying to do too much. Try a full stop after "attack", or add something like 'after a hard fought battle' or 'after coming close to defeat'. The battle clearly didn't drive the Austrians out of Italy, as they are still there in the next sentence. I would skip this bit, as the whole of the following section is about how an effect of the battle was to lead to the Austrians relinquishing part of Italy. The political bit may be accurate, but move it to Aftermath; and, possibly, introduce 18 Brumaire in its chronological place?

•  Done I'm unclear about what you mean by 18 Brumaire? I understand it was a month, but why does it need to be mentioned? Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:15, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

Coup of 18 Brumaire. I've added a mention in the background section. I've rejigged the second paragraph of this section also, if you could review and make any changes. Thanks - Dumelow (talk) 08:23, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• "At 4:00 AM" -> am.

•  Done Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:15, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

• "In the agreement, the Austrians agreed to evacuate to the left bank of the Bormida, and that hostilities would cease for forty-eight hours while negotiations for what became the Convention of Alessandria were carried out." Another sentence trying to do too much. Try a full stop after "hours" and move the last bit to the end of the paragraph - something like 'The final agreement was formalised and signed as the Convention of Alessandria' or similar.

•  Done Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 02:13, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• "It immediately ceased hostilities" You probably want to reread that.

• Ce'd Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 02:13, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• "and abandon strongholds in the Piedmont and Milan" This implies some strongholds. Is that what you mean, or is 'all of their' missing?

• Indeed, it is all of their Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 02:13, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• "the French would have accepted much fewer concessions" "much" -> 'many'.

•  Done Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 02:13, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• "The Cispadane Republic was re-established and a temporary government was put in place until the signing of a peace treaty." With whom - the Cispadane Republic?

•  Done Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 02:13, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• "Count Joseph Saint-Julien was sent to deliver the convention to Francis II" Saint-Julien appears a little out of nowhere. Who is he. Possibly add 'Austrian diplomat' or whatever to the front of the sentence?

•  Done Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 02:13, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• "Austria soon dispatched Saint-Julien to travel to Paris, carrying news of the signed armistice, and to further consider the terms of the treaty." "Armistice", what armistice? Surely he either delivered the signed treaty, or he entered into discussion of its terms. If he did do both I think that you need some further explanation. Or if you are using armistice to refer to the convention I suggest that you don't.

• ce'd, and see the note next to it. It was a fairly complex situation, one that I think is best explained in the note. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:11, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

• " at which Saint-Julien was convinced to assume the position of" "convinced" -> 'persuaded'.

•  Done Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 02:13, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Lead

• Optional. "a treaty signed on 15 June 1800 between Napoleon's French First Republic and" Replace "Napoleon's" with 'the'.

• Personally I think it helps to introduce Napoleon and show how integral he was to the republic... but am open to changing Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:17, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

• "Further negotiation followed between them" "them being two (which) of the three countries, or all three?

• Replaced with "all three countries" Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:17, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

• "Count Joseph Saint-Julien" See above re introducing him.

• Done Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 02:13, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

I am on holiday and away from my sources, so I can't really do this fine budding article justice, but I shall leave you with the comments above for now. There is absolutely no rush. You are filling a surprising and important gap and I would rather that we get it right than do it quickly. So take your time and come back to me when you think that the article is ready. Gog the Mild (talk) 00:30, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Gog the Mild, I think we've responded to most of your concerns. Thanks for taking up this review Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:13, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

It is looking good. I will concentrate my new comments down here.

• I have again been a bit bold with some changes. Do flag up if you are not happy/don't understand any.

• Looks good Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

• Infobox. Optional. I am not convinced by your stating that a nation was defeated by an individual. Why not say 'after the defeat of Michael von Melas by the French Republic'? (PS That was an ironic suggestion')

• Replaced with French First Republic Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

• Infobox parameters. Optional. "Negotiators", "Initial signatories".

• Not done, there is not a list of specific people for either, and it would only duplicate the 'parties' parameter otherwise.Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

• Then say ' his [second] Italian campaign

• Rephrased by Dumelow Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

• "Napoleon's French First Republic". It's an unusual construction. Would you write 'Francis' Archduchy of Austria' or 'George's Kingdom of Great Britain'? Maybe 'the French First Republic led by [dominated by?] Napoleon'?

•  Done Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

• "refused to accept the terms and give up Austria's Italian holdings" My understanding is that their was never a question of Austria giving up all of their Italian holdings, as this implies. Just those in north west Italy. The map in the article would seem to support this, as would the lead.

• Added 'any' Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

• A comment only. The mix of referencing styles jars a bit. You will want to swap them all in harv before you nominate for ACR.

• Will do eventually... Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

• Bibliography. Could you put all of the titles of works in title case. And remove the two months from publication dates.

• Think I got them all Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

• Sources:

Hewson needs an OCLC. (656982611)

•  Done Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Knight, could we have the full title: 'A History of England Volume 7: 1760-1840'.

•  Done Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Sainsbury. Should that be 'Les'? And if you are referring to the translated version, you should give the English title.

• Doesn't the param 'trans Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Does Shosenberg not have an OCLC or ISSN?

• Replaced source. It was taken from Battle of Marengo, an A-class article. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Good work. Barring these minor points, two of them optional, you are done.

Gog the Mild (talk) 04:30, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

Gog the Mild, How's it look now? Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 19:36, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Very good. A fine piece of work, which is now a Good Article. Well done, both of you. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:03, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Umm. Do either of you have any thoughts as to where to put it in the GA list? The best MilHist fit seems to be under "Battles, exercises, and conflicts (1800 to present)", but a case could be made for "Massacres, war crimes, and legal issues of warfare". Or for World history, European history. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:16, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

• Gog the Mild, I'd probably say European history, because it doesn't clearly fit into either of the other two in my mind.

Done. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:49, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for such a thorough and speedy review Gog. I did very little, Eddie deserves all the credit for this one - great work! - Dumelow (talk) 21:19, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

My pleasure. Well done Eddie. Ping me when it goes up for ACR. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:24, 19 January 2019 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

"Most disgraceful capitulation in history"

@Eddie891: Sorry to be the no-fun brigade, but... is the quote by Dyer really that relevant, or worthy of being highlighted so much? (The Dyer quote was highlighted on the Facebook Wikipedia feed recently, which was presumably mining from DYK... cool that they're even covering "old" history at least, and no shame in some magazine-style spicy quotes, in moderation.)

According to the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica... which most people would consider nowadays a very Anglophilic and old-fashioned source... Dyer was considered by the standards of the 1800s an uninspired and "conservative" historian who basically just regurgitated the official line. If that's what the 1911 Britannica thought, Dyer would likely be considered positively archaic by modern standards. Dyer was also a British historian in an era where people were not shy about nationalistic coloring of their history writing about a military defeat by an ally, so it's not shocking he considers the Convention a disgraceful betrayal, nor that Mitchell or Prussian von Bülow would think the same. I guess the closest modern comparison might be an American historian of the "America was totally winning but got stabbed in the back by weak allies and politicians" school writing about a South Vietnamese defeat in the Vietnam War and calling it "disgraceful". Well... maybe, but I'd want to hear it from different and more sources. It seems very possible to me that the Austrians knew more about the state of their forces than the British or French, and that they were in no condition to fight. Are there modern historians with spicy, magaziney quotes who can be cited instead? And/or Austrian historians? Dyer, von Bulow, and Mitchell were all writing ages ago. SnowFire (talk) 21:50, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

• SnowFire Yeah, historians just aren't as spicy these days as they used to be! I have looked, but nobody really wants to say anything conclusive about anything. I am fine with removing the quotes if you want... If it means anything, von Bulow was espoused as recently as 2013. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:50, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Nah, it's better to have some sort of response rather than nothing. The fact that 2013 Dwyer (who is different from Dyer... sheesh) seems to agree that the Austrians weren't that badly off helps; I was more worried it was a case of not merely the slant being wrong, but the facts as well, wherein the Austrians had simply been beaten badly and there was no cowardice or "throwing victory away" here.

In the realm of productive suggestions, it might be worth calling out the dates of the writing a little more as a soft disclaimer about the vintage of the comment. Yeah, it's in the reference already, but nobody reads that.

"British historian Thomas Henry Dyer wrote in 1877 that it was "one of the most disgraceful capitulations in history."

perhaps? SnowFire (talk) 05:57, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

SnowFire Added the date. I'm in the process of tracking down a source through the resource exchange that might have more too say from 2007, so I will let you know if I find anything else. Thanks for the suggestion! Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:32, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

SnowFire: I added another source. Let me know what you think Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:59, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Those changes look fine to me. Thanks! SnowFire (talk) 23:17, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

SnowFire, I'm in the process of (hopefully) getting access to another source... Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:18, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Just to chip in here. I like what Eddie has done with adding the dates/nationalities and moving the quotes to a "historical opinion" section. I agree that the writers probably have something of an agenda, but think the reader will need to make their own inferences unless there is a modern source that discusses their comments (unlikely). I think it is preferable to have some commentary from historians, even if it is old, rather than none. Though I would be interested to hear a more modern take - fingers crossed for the new source Eddie mentions above - Dumelow (talk) 15:35, 2 February 2019 (UTC)