Talk:Communes of Algeria

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: article remains at Communes of Algeria. While it may be worth looking at whether the article should be at Communes of Algeria or List of communes of Algeria, this was not what this requested move was for. I note there's no clear and definitive precedent either way, so it doesn't really matter much. fish&karate 13:09, 26 October 2011 (UTC) fish&karate 13:09, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

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List of municipalities of Algeria → List of communes in Algeria – Article is a list. Note that the current name is Communes of Algeria, the talk page doesn't have the same title Tachfin (talk) 00:24, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

• I don't have a problem with either title but note that most Wikipedia articles on such 3rd-level admin units are not titled "list of XXXX" even though they are almost exclusively lists (e.g., Arrondissements of Benin, Departments of Burkina Faso, Wards of Zimbabwe). —  AjaxSmack  02:46, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Frankly I can't decide on the standard practice in such cases; there are many "List of XXXX in Country/state". For example: List of communities in Alberta, List of counties in Ohio, List of communes of Luxembourg, List of communes in Puerto Rico, List of communes in France with over 20,000 inhabitants (2006 census). It seems natural that an article containing a comprehensive list should have a name that reflects its content. Then again, as you pointed out, there are examples where "the list of" isn't used. In any case at least the talk page should be moved. Tachfin (talk) 16:28, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• Comment - I've moved the talk page to match the article. Whether we should add "List of" to the beginning of the title remains an open question. -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:37, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Not moved per lack of consensus. bd2412 T 15:17, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Communes of Algeria → Municipalities of Algeria – Since this is the English Wikipedia, use the English translation for baladiyah and not the French. The article was named with the English name until one user changed it, with specific reference to French "move to commune as this is officially recognised in French". Androoox (talk) 22:19, 27 January 2014 (UTC) Relisted. BDD (talk) 00:44, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

• WP:UE seems to dictate a support. Red Slash 03:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

• Statoids, the sole source for the article and an English-language source, uses "communes". —  AjaxSmack  04:30, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
  • So, one person, Gwillam Law, is dictating article names in the English Wikipedia? Shall I start a website? Or maybe, just email him? Androoox (talk) 10:05, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. French is widely spoken in Algeria and "commune" is a widely recognised term for a municipality even in English. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:32, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

  "French is widely spoken in Algeria" - That does not matter. And even more widely spoken is Arabic. Androoox (talk) 10:04, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. I just a Google Books search, and got to following results:

1. municipality algeria -wikipedia 10,600 results
2. commune algeria -wikipedia 59,700 results

That suggests that commune is more widely used in English to refer to this level of local govt. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:19, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

What can one learn from the second link?

• "when the Algerian administration removed the post of Tabelbala from the Indigenous Commune of the Saoura"
• "La mosquee au peril de la commune" - any word English?
• "De la commune a la guerre d'Algerie [Amnesty: From the Commune to the Algerian"
• "Offensive Commune contre le Terrorisme" - common offensive
• "1871 Paris Commune" - unrelated
• "Organisation Commune des Régions Sahariennes " - ? common organisation
• " the administrateur de commune mixte and" - /administrateur de/ does not look very English
• " Administrateur de la Commune Mixte de Bordj-Bou-Arrèridj to Sous-préfet" - same

Androoox (talk) 09:49, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

• Support: Your English/French reasoning seemed to be plausible for me. Alexyflemming (talk) 15:07, 8 February 2014 (UTC)
  • "Commune" is also an English word. Check a dictionary if you don't believe me. —  AjaxSmack  00:04, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
    • Oh, you mean the wiktionary that everyone can edit. "A local political division in many European countries." - Algeria is not a European country. Androoox (talk) 10:02, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
      • Yeah, it's a little like Wikipedia, the encyclopedia everyone can edit. However, other dictionaries agree. Oxford: "commune" 2.1 "a territorial division similar to a French commune in other countries."; Merriam-Webster: ²commune 1 "the smallest administrative district of many countries especially in Europe."; Cambridge: "commune" (2) "in some countries, a unit of local government." It's English. Get over it. —  AjaxSmack  03:38, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
        • Get over it yourself. Algeria is in Africa and other dictionaries do not agree. Furthermore, if "commune" is only a unit in some countries, then this is not a correct usage here, but the correct usage is "municipality" which is a unit in many many countries. The sole official language is Arabic, it is baladiyah. Androoox (talk) 09:00, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per lack of evidence of common usage of "municipality" vis-à-vis "commune" (see above). We already use this term for many other articles from Communes of Albania to Communes of Cambodia to Communes of Senegal. —  AjaxSmack  00:14, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

User:AjaxSmack - then it should be reverted to the version before one user changed it. BTW: English Wikipedia also uses "Gmina". Does that make the word English? Androoox (talk) 09:52, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

Although I generally support reversion of undiscussed moves, I'm not really concerned about the motives for a series of various moves 5 years ago. "Commune" is an English word as I've demonstrated above and it is used for numerous countries both inside and outside of Europe. I did look carefully through the Google Books results for both of the terms before making a decision. I agree with you about the false positive hits for commune algeria -wikipedia. However, there seem to be just as many for municipality algeria -wikipedia. For example, the very first result reads "the municipality [of Saint-Denis in France] hosted a reception to honor new conscripts, boldly asking the men to sign petitions against the 'war in Algeria'." Others include:

"Like Pantin, the municipality [of Mantes-la-Jolie in France] is divided into..."

"The municipality [in Tunisia] was reorganized and a constitution was promulgated in 1861..."

"...in the tiny municipality of Les Rousses in the Jura mountains [in France]."

"...a public-house which has had to be set aside by the Municipality [of Wiesbaden in Germany]."

And so on. Such false positives are bound to occur. —  AjaxSmack  03:38, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

User:AjaxSmack - what can one learn from your lengthy talk? Do you have any prove that the minority term "commune" shall be used instead of the generic term "municipality"? Androoox (talk) 09:00, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

• Comment, procedural:
  • 11:11, 19 May 2008‎ Dr. Blofeld (talk | contribs)‎ . . (33 bytes) (+33)‎ . . (moved Municipalities of Algeria to Communes of Algeria: move to commune as this is officially recognised in French)
  • 04:38, 2 August 2009‎ Bejnar (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (112,527 bytes) (0)‎ . . (moved List of communes of Algeria to List of municipalities of Algeria: as that is the English form, as opposed to the French, the Algerians use the word "baladiyah")
  • 12:59, 13 September 2009‎ Rich Farmbrough (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (112,577 bytes) (0)‎ . . (moved List of municipalities of Algeria to Communes of Algeria: Per user request - correct name -problems,please use talk page to reach consnsus)
    • Where is this talk about the term? The originally used term was "municipality". Androoox (talk) 01:39, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
• Comment. The official language in Algeria is Arabic, not French, see Languages of Algeria. This is the English Wikipedia, not the French one. User:Bejnar had it right, User:Blofeld, was right that this is the French term, but since this is the English Wikipedia that does not matter. Androoox (talk) 01:39, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
• Comment Statoids has switched to Municipalities of Algeria. See http://www.statoids.com/ydz.html Androoox (talk) 01:39, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
• Comment The last user that switched the term is currently blocked: Special:Contributions/Rich Farmbrough, so he cannot join the discussion. Androoox (talk) 02:05, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Per Brown Haired Girl. The official term is commune and it's what is most commonly used in reliable sources, I wouldn't look at what statoid does but what the Algerian government does. We use the name commune for many other African countries or comune for Italy etc too and should continue to do so.♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:34, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.