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Talk:Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania/Archive 10

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Latest comment: 30 days ago by Slatersteven in topic Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2024
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Removal of Trump from the stage

Latest comment: 2 months ago21 comments8 people in discussion

I changed the text "escorted him..." to "hoisted him..." My edit summary was "escorted" sounds like the debutantes' ball. He was in shock and hauled off by half a dozen strong men. "escorted" trivializes the extent of his impairment at that moment.

I believe that "escorted" sounds like the First Lady being taken to her seat by the West Point Honor Guard at graduation ceremonies. But Trump was in shock and was dragged from the stage in uncertain condition by many agents carefully supporting his weight. We need to reflect that by appropriate language. It is not "puffery" to convey the gravity of the moment. If not "hoisted" it could be "carried" "supported" or some other word. But see the definition of "hoist"

[https://www.dictionary.com/browse/hoist hoisted; hoisting; hoists

transitive verb

lift, raise

especially : to raise into position

SPECIFICO talk 15:27, 20 August 2024 (UTC)

What do RS say? Slatersteven (talk) 15:29, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Here is a sample: (NBC) "rush him off the stage," (Axios) "escorted off stage," (The Independent) "rushed from the stage," (ABC News - United States) "hustled off the stage," (CNN) "rushed off the stage," (USA Today) "rushed off stage," (PBS) "escorted off stage." Might need a review of sources to confirm which is primarily used, but rush(ed) appears the most often from what I found. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:26, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
That's helpful. Certainly none conveys the genteel escorting of a distinguished speaker from the stage. In fact we could see that he was limp and in shock and was hoisted and then dragged by the torso, his legs possibly not even in continuity with the ground beneath them. SPECIFICO talk 20:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
"hoisted" just seemed a bit too boisterous, and I share similar concerns with "escorted". I was going to suggest "carried", but it sounds like "rushed" is used by most RS and I am ok with that too. Kcmastrpc (talk) 20:15, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
"Escort" is actually a very serious job description in military and paramilitary contexts, which is what this case involves... it in no way "trivializes" anything. The term is used to classify the protection and support of an asset, in both noun and verb forms. "Police escort", for example. Entire classes of ships are referred to as "Escorts" (e.g. Escort destroyers, Escort vehicles, Escort fighters. Marcus Markup (talk) 20:25, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
The problem is that wikipedia isn't written from a military perspective so the average user probably would not make the connection between "escort" and a military maneuver, as evidenced by this very talkpage section. I do think "rush off" would give the appropriate context to any reader. Yvan Part (talk) 20:35, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
The text in question literally describes a paramilitary operation by the Secret Service. This is not the Simple English Wikipedia... reliable sources are comfortable assuming a level of sophistication in their readers and are comfortable using that term... I don't think we need to do otherwise. Also, he was not immediately "rushed off". Besides the delay while he was crouching, he literally told them to stop so he could go "Fight!"... they were only "rushing" at the very end. Categorizing what the SS did as "escorting" him is the most precise option of describing it. Marcus Markup (talk) 21:17, 20 August 2024 (UTC)
Presidential protection is not a function of the military in the USA, and this analysis is pretty much off the wall. SPECIFICO talk 01:48, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
The Secret Service is a paramilitary organization. Marcus Markup (talk) 02:46, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
That will require multiple Reliable Sources, otherwise...no. SPECIFICO talk 03:31, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
@Marcus Markup: Not fully sure if you intended to reply to me, but if you did I don't believe saying that rush(ed) appears the most often from what I found is trivializing anything. I will say that escort(ed) does appear to be either the second most or most popular description. For additional sources that I just checked: (NYT) "After agents escort Mr. Trump off the stage," (NPR) "escorted offstage by Secret Service," (Washington Post) "Agents escort Trump down the stairs from the stage," "as Secret Service agents escort him offstage," (CBS) "As Secret Service surrounded Trump to escort him off the stage," (USA Today) "and escort him off stage into a vehicle," (ABC News - Australian) "but as his Secret Service detail begins to escort him off stage," (SBS) "surrounded by US Secret Service agents trying to escort him off the stage" I do think we might need a review of sources as some use escort(ed) or rush(ed) and some use both. --Super Goku V (talk) 05:13, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
  • "rushed off stage" seems to be fine. Hoisted seems off and it doesn't appear in reliable sources. Carried doesn't seem exactly accurate since Trump appeared to have mostly supported himself. R. G. Checkers talk 03:45, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
    There was no rush. Don't use same-day accounts. If you're going to do word counts, you would need the most recent RS usage and not news media quickies. And why pivot from literal repetition of immediate newspaper wording to your opinion as to whether he was supporting himself? And why Australia of all places? SPECIFICO talk 11:16, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
    Based on the RS provided by folks above "carried" is not supported. Rushed off and escorted are what RS use predominantly. R. G. Checkers talk 17:47, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
    You're not addressing the issue I raised above. We need the most recent credible RS, not Aussie overnight reporting. We wouldn't use USA today for a kangaroo story. SPECIFICO talk 18:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
    We need the most recent credible RS What reliable source supports your assertion that "hoisted" should be the verb we should use? Why are you insisting on impeccable sourcing for others work, when your suggestion is completely unsourced? Marcus Markup (talk) 07:23, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
    What are you talking about? Last I checked WaPo and NYT aren't based in Melbourne or Sydney. R. G. Checkers talk 05:53, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
    @SPECIFICO: I believe you have an issue with my comment, but I am unsure since you did not directly reply to me. If so, I did two quick surveys through Google search of reliable sources and listed what I found, with the exception that I didn't cover anything in the second comment that was already covered in the first. I will go and make a small change to my first comment to keep that clearer, but I don't see why a global viewpoint should be restricted. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:02, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
'Escorted' is used by a large number of RSes, and I don't pick up any inappropriate connotations. If you want to replace it with carried or hoisted, you should be able to find at least a few RSes that use those words, considering how many RSes other people have already linked. Hi! (talk) 06:32, 22 August 2024 (UTC)
Either escorted or rushed off would work. Both appear to be the primary way to describe what happened and it doesn't seem like anyone is interested in a full survey. --Super Goku V (talk) 19:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)

"DEI" criticism of female Secret Service agents

Latest comment: 2 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Hi all. There's a section in the article that addresses criticism from Republican politicians of Secret Service hiring, specifically noting criticism of female secret service agents. This seemed to me to be pretty obviously rooted in sexism -- the implication that women cannot do their job as well as men solely because they are women. Of the two sources, Wired explicitly labels these claims as sexist, while the Telegraph article more obliquely notes that "critics claim females make less effective agents than men". Both sources mention an explicit claim from a right-wing commentator, Matt Walsh, who explicitly argues that all women are not qualified to be in the Secret Service, because men will always be better at that specific job.

I added that these criticisms were rooted in sexism -- because, well, they obviously were, this was supported by the evidence, and I felt the article as it stood led undue credence to the idea that these female Secret Service agents had been criticised for any reason beyond sexism. This was reverted by another editor, @Marcus Markup: who felt that I was making an inflammatory claim in an inappropriate way.

Quite honestly, I am not sure how else to represent these claims. Clearly some of the criticism is explicitly grounded in sexism, and even aside from the ones who don't say "only men can be a Secret Service agent", how can the implication that hiring women led to someone taking a shot at a former President be anything but misogynist? I truly am not trying to enforce my own viewpoint here, but I feel it is dishonest to merely say "female agents faced scrutiny" when this "scrutiny" is not because of anything they have done but because certain politicians and commentators don't think there should be women -- or at the very least, as many women -- in the Secret Service. LivelyRatification (talk) 00:54, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

If there are two sources, and one of them calls the scrutiny sexist, I would attribute: Female agents have faced increased scrutiny from Republicans, which some have called sexist or which Wired has called sexist.
If there were 5+ sources and they all or almost all agreed on this, I would just put it in Wikivoice. Loki (talk) 01:56, 16 August 2024 (UTC)
The women faced scrutiny because they were a foot shorter than their VIP (making it impossible to fully shield them), and because one could barely holster their gun.
On average, women are shorter and have much less testosterone than men, so it's not surprising that they will be criticized when they're put into jobs that are physically demanding, and where slight errors can result in catastrophe.
The average American man is about 5 ft 9 in, with women being even shorter (5 ft 4 in). It seems unlikely that this criticism is sexist, since it's simply rooted in reality. The average man is not qualified for securing the most important figure in the world, let alone the average woman.
There's plenty of articles that describe legitimate criticisms of short women in the Secret Service who run direct security for 6 ft 3 in+ VIPs. It's not sexist to describe these physical realities. MightyLebowski (talk) 06:56, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Southern Sniper Team made the Shot

Latest comment: 2 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Change

Secret Service snipers were likely obstructed from being able to see Crooks as he crawled into a firing position due to the slant of the roof that Crooks was on, with the northern sniper team in particular having its line of sight obstructed by trees.[1]

to

Secret Service snipers on the northern roof were obstructed from being able to see Crooks as he crawled into a firing position due to the slant of the roof that Crooks was on, with the southern roof snipers having to shoot instead.[1][2]


CBS article confirms with federal officials that northern sniper team did not shoot. 207.96.32.81 (talk) 00:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

  Bumping thread. Left guide (talk) 08:03, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
  Partially implemented; the paragraph has changed significantly since this request was made, but I have added the source included in the request and updated some of the information in the article based on it. –Gluonz talk contribs 22:55, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ a b Oakford, Samuel; Steckelberg, Aaron; Hill, Evan; Ley, Jarrett; Baran, Jonathan; Horton, Alex; Granados, Samuel (July 16, 2024). "Obstructed view may have delayed sniper response at Trump rally". The Washington Post. Archived from the original on July 17, 2024. Retrieved July 17, 2024.
  2. ^ https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/trump-rally-shooting-tree-snipers-analysis-video-satellite-imagery-cbs-news/

A failure to communicate

Latest comment: 2 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Forgotten radios and missed warnings: New details emerge about communication failures before Trump rally shooting, CNN (Aug 23, 2024)

"The day before the attempted assassination of Donald Trump, a tactical team of local police officers set aside radios for their Secret Service partners so the two agencies could communicate during the former president’s July 13 campaign rally.
But those radios were never picked up.
The next day, three minutes before shots were fired toward Trump, local police radioed that a man was on a nearby roof. That warning never made it to the Secret Service, whose snipers didn’t know the would-be assassin was on the roof until shots rang out. In the 15 seconds it took for snipers to lock onto and kill the shooter, he was able to fire off eight shots."

Bob K31416 (talk) 12:26, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Suggested summary, for Attempted_assassination_of_Donald_Trump#Security_arrangements.
"Local police set aside radios for the Secret Service, who did not pick them up." Uwappa (talk) 14:16, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Best description of shot in relation to Trump's ear

Latest comment: 2 months ago15 comments7 people in discussion

We have been under a multiple edit thing over the wording regarding how the shot affected Trump's ear. Let's settle the matter here. I propose a procedure that I think will be helpful. As a first step, lets produce a comprehensive list of all the verbs used (injured, grazed, etc). When we feel the list is ready, let's qualify each verb by Reliability of source, popularity (number of google search results), and discarding early reports which had incomplete information.

  • abrazed
  • grazed
  • hit
  • planed
  • scraped
  • shot in the ear
  • continue here

Let's go.Forich (talk) 15:50, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Uwappa (talk) 16:28, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

lets go by what RS say. or we can add uninjured, faked and god knows what else. Slatersteven (talk) 16:31, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
"Grazed"[1] is a well-sourced description that seems to fit what happened. It was just enough to draw blood, yet to heal within a few days. "Pierced" (which I just deleted, forgetting that edit wasn't to the article, so sorry about that) is Trump's own description, which is already in the article. As it's a quote, we can't do much about it, even though it's misleading. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 02:18, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Valjean, did you just deleted a Talk Page edit of mine? As I explained in the introito of the section, we are listing verbs to later discuss their pros and cons, so keep and open mind as long as the verbs are verifiable. In stage two we will greatly appreciate your comments on each decision and your opinion favoring "grazed" will hopefully show up.Forich (talk) 02:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Forich, yes, I did do that by mistake, as I mention above: "(which I just deleted, forgetting that edit wasn't to the article, so sorry about that)" I apologize again. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:47, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
Apologies accepted @Valjean:Forich (talk) 01:43, 28 August 2024 (UTC)
Let's not overdo this. Grazed, nicked, scratched, or cut are all OK. SPECIFICO talk 02:58, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Support Grazed. It's sourced and is an accurate description of what happened. R. G. Checkers talk 04:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
Suggestion, work with a table with a list of sources per word and a supported by:
Caption text
Word Sources Supported by
abrazed
grazed
  1. CNN, 10 Aug 2024 ("grazed")
  2. Neurosurgeon, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, 19 July 2024 ("barely injured")
  1. R. G. Checkers talk 04:21, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
  2. Uwappa (talk) 08:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)
  3. Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:49, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
  4. Zefr (talk) 20:10, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
hit
planed
scraped
shot in the ear
continue here
We can use "grazed", provided this table exercise we initiated does not end up exposing Wikipedia:Cherrypicking#Multiple_sources, and I don't expect otherwise, given that you guys seem to be experienced editors.Forich (talk) 02:19, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Browne, Malachy; Lum, Devon; Cardia, Alexander (July 26, 2024). "Speculation Swirls About What Hit Trump. An Analysis Suggests It was a Bullet". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Archived from the original on July 28, 2024. Retrieved July 29, 2024.

FBI: videos show Crooks scaled building at 6:05, walked on roof from 6:05-6:08

Latest comment: 2 months ago1 comment1 person in discussion

See chapter timeline in https://www.fbi.gov/news/speeches/fbi-pittsburgh-special-agent-in-charge-s-remarks-to-media-on-updates-to-the-butler-pennsyvlania-assassination-attempt-investigation Uwappa (talk) 07:49, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Claim that Secret Service counter snipers saw Crooks at 5:52

Latest comment: 2 months ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Much has been clarified and corrected in the last weeks. But the claim that the Secret Service counter-snipers first spotted Crooks at 5:52 persists in the table. This was only reported by ABC News (and WDSU, explicitly quoting them). It does not make sense in context of the verified events. Where did they spot him, when he climbed onto the roofs not before 6:06? Did they spot him in the crowd? How? This appears to be a synthesis and misunderstanding from the much better verified facts "(other) snipers spotted Crooks" and "Secret Service was informed about suspect". The claim should be removed from the article as dubious at least. --KnightMove (talk) 06:48, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Agree, this needs a correction. ABC news mixed up the 'hidden' local snipers in the AGR building and secret snipers on a remote roof. Uwappa (talk) 09:03, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
  Resolved Looks like it has been removed from the timeline's table. --Super Goku V (talk) 20:04, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 August 2024

Latest comment: 2 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Change the short description of the article from "2024 shooting the former US President in Pennsylvania, U.S." to "2024 shooting of the former US President in Pennsylvania, U.S." Scs52 (talk) 20:36, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 August 2024

Latest comment: 2 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Ulysses S. Grant III (talk) 00:18, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

The FBI announced that they found “no definitive motive or definite ideology” for the shooter to attempt to assassinate Donald Trump. [1]

  Not done, ask in the correct "Change X to Y" format, and someone will consider. Kingsmasher678 (talk) 01:33, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/08/28/trump-rally-shooting-motive-unknown-thomas-matthew-crooks/

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 August 2024 (2)

Latest comment: 2 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Change the Motive section from “Under investigation” to “Unknown”. [1] Ulysses S. Grant III (talk) 00:21, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

  Not done, the articles do not make it clear weather or not the investigation has concluded.

Kingsmasher678 (talk) 01:36, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2024/08/28/trump-rally-shooting-motive-unknown-thomas-matthew-crooks/

This article uses the term "AGR" without first explaining what it refers to

Latest comment: 2 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

That's as of the time I'm making this post. Maybe I'll find the spell-out as I read further down, but it's customary to give the spell-out upon first use of the acronym or initialism, as in 'at the Agitated Grumbling Reader ("AGR") Building'. When things aren't where they're expected to be it makes it difficult to come here and get some little factlet quickly without having to read the entire article, as I'm sure many people will desire to do.

If you don't know what "AGR" stands for, perhaps you can find out rather than leaving me to. One thing that would help would be using a more Google-Satellite type picture for the map, or at least explaining what the colors mean, and LABELING what the AGR Building is. Or label it in the photo. More maps would help. What I think readers will want to do figure out why if Crooks was RUNNING to elude officers, WHERE was he running, and why wasn't the event delayed pending the apprehending of this person running away from law-enforcement, using a golf rangefinder, etc.? If there CAN be a logical explanation for the failure to delay the event after so many indications that something untoward was afoot, I'm sure Wikipedia readers would like a chance to figure out what it IS. This article could help them more than it does.2600:1700:6759:B000:E894:BFCC:705D:880 (talk) 04:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)Christopher Lawrence Simpson
AGR International is the organization that owns the nearby warehouse complex. I have edited the article in an effort to make this clearer. I agree that maps can contribute to a better understanding of this situation; you may find that this source[1] has some useful maps. As for why the rally had not been called off, law enforcement officers, while considering the person to be suspicious, had not realized that the person had also been armed until around 38 seconds before the shooting. I hope that this helps! –Gluonz talk contribs 14:03, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Boburg, Shawn; Oakford, Samuel; Barrett, Devlin (August 3, 2024). "'We lost sight of him': Radio traffic shows failed search for Trump rally shooter". Washington Post. Retrieved August 3, 2024.

CBS: Crooks hit by rifle stock fragments at 6:11:37 pm

Latest comment: 2 months ago4 comments3 people in discussion

A quote from https://www.cbsnews.com/pittsburgh/news/butler-swat-operator-trump-rally-gunman/ that impacts the timeline at 6:11:37 p.m.

"The shot hit the gunman's rifle stock and fragmented into his face, neck and right shoulder area from the stock breaking into pieces. Crooks went down but recovered after just a few seconds and popped back up, the report says. The shot delayed the shooter long enough for a United States Secret Service sniper to take the fatal shot."

CBS quotes page 4, "The 9th shot fired..." at: https://clayhiggins.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/Preliminary-Investigative-Report-8.12.24.pdf#page=4

Uwappa (talk) 11:15, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

Nice finding, worthy of mention.Forich (talk) 01:40, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
My doubt: It is not clear who drew this conclusion and how. Was it mr. Clay Higgins himself? Was it local police? FBI? Is video available that supports this conclusion? Was it logic, the last 10th shot hit Crooks, so a shot hitting his rifle must have been the 9th shot? Uwappa (talk) 06:43, 17 August 2024 (UTC)
I have added that source. –Gluonz talk contribs 14:52, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 September 2024

Latest comment: 2 months ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Source #61 (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/acting-secret-service-director-testify-senate-details-trump/story?id=112384807) does not mention an air conditioning unit; replace with source #62 https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/2024/08/03/trump-rally-police-radio-transmissions/ Squ1rrelwithagun (talk) 15:46, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

  Fixed. –Gluonz talk contribs 17:30, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Actual close look at ear

Latest comment: 2 months ago3 comments2 people in discussion

An interesting article:

Valjean (talk) (PING me) 03:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Ron Filipkowski, the editor of MeidasTouch News and a regular Daily Beast contributor, has been among the most prominent names scrutinizing the Trump campaign’s claims that the former president was directly struck by a bullet fired by Crooks. Referring to the bullet strike as a 'campaign claim' makes this source interesting but useless. Marcus Markup (talk) 07:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
This reporter seems to like to find scientifically unsophisticated reporters to comment on presumed medical issues of Trump (e.g. how a Vanity Fair reporter thinks Trump may have PTSD because he allegedly watches the video of his shooting a lot). Such a useless source... posting his work here verges on WP:NOTFORUM territory and is a waste of editorial time. Marcus Markup (talk) 07:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Was he shot or was he shot at?

Latest comment: 1 month ago18 comments5 people in discussion

Political hay is being made out of the term shot when it's not really clear he was hit, grazed or struck by shrapnel or debris. A failure to release the medical records seems to be intentional obfuscation. While it was indeed a traumatic event and still of major significance it is being used as propaganda in such a way that the terminology has become more important than it needed to be. For now should "Trump was shot and wounded in his upper right ear by ..." be changed to "Trump was shot at and wounded in his upper right ear by "? Oghma6 (talk) 16:44, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose any change. I believe this has been hashed out in numerous discussions and possibly even at an RfC. Perhaps a FAQ is in order? Kcmastrpc (talk) 16:46, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
I may have missed previous discussions but tried to check before posting. As long as it remains unclear what damaged his ear then to claim he was shot is a step too far. I would have thought the medical records would have helped clear it up, but they are being withheld. The fact that the terminology is being used as propaganda makes this more important than it otherwise would have been. It still may have been that he WAS indeed shot but as long as it remains unclear it's not "correct" to say in Wikipedia that he WAS shot. In my opinion. Oghma6 (talk) 17:04, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
Yes, there was an RfC. This has also been brought up in multiple discussions since. Please use the archive search function. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Attempted_assassination_of_Donald_Trump/Archive_5#RfC%3A_Trump_shot_in_the_ear Kcmastrpc (talk) 17:11, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
Thank you very much. It appears unresolved and the reasoning given that other articles say it doesn't make it true. What caused the injury is still not clear and the language has been made to matter as a source of biased rhetoric and propaganda. Can anyone point to a source of authority confirming shot or not? The medical record is withheld. Why? The problem here is that some people have made this matter more than it should. I would ask that until the record is released and makes it clear or if official authority clarifies it is MUST say shot at and NOT shot. In my opinion. Shot has become a biased representation. Oghma6 (talk) 19:00, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Attempted_assassination_of_Donald_Trump/Archive_9#FBI_officially_confirmed_Trump_was_shot Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:23, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
Thank you, again. Very much appreciated, but it still really doesn't seem to resolve it :( "What struck former President Trump in the ear was a bullet, whether whole or fragmented into smaller pieces, fired from the deceased subject's rifle." Could it not then be said that the four officers around him were also "shot" instead of hit by fragments or debris? Yet again the medical record may help, and how can the FBI say for certain it was fragments of a bullet and not something else? It also doesn't help that the Director is a Trump appointee. Oghma6 (talk) 19:36, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
We really only go by what reliable sources are saying, and overwhelmingly sources report that Trump was shot and wounded in the ear. I don't know how we'd justify deviating from this basic fact without some exceptional sources like reliable sources covering a medical report coming out and saying he was injured by the hydrostatic shock of a bullet passing within extreme proximity of his ear (rather than the actual bullet or fragments). Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:53, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
I just wanted to point out that I'm using an extreme example like Hydrostatic shock to be dramatic (and it sounds cool), even though there's no evidence to suggest that this is even remotely possible. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:54, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
Understood, but the only "reliable" source doesn't confirm whether or not he was shot or hit by fragments. There is still no one in authority who has confirmed whether a bullet hit him (shot) or fragments of the bullet (or something else) caused the injury. Normally most wouldn't really care but the term shot has been used to inflame and exaggerate the event intentionally. It is significant enough that someone made the attempt, but the term has been used as propaganda. Wikipedia currently supports that propaganda, without real evidence. Oghma6 (talk) 20:16, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

We have this:

"The upper part of Trump's right ear was grazed by the first bullet fired by Crooks.[1][2]

It's accurate and backed by RS. There is no reason to change that. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 03:51, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

The reference you give is the one I've quoted where the FBI Director states "What struck former President Trump in the ear was a bullet, whether whole or fragmented into smaller pieces, fired from the deceased subject's rifle." which doesn't at all clear up whether Trump was shot or shot at. If anything the failure to release the medical record and this failure by the FBI Director to be specific indicates a desire to avoid refuting Trump and associates claims that he was shot. As the terminology is being used as propaganda then it has taken on more weight than it ever should have and until an authoritative source makes it clear then all that is certain is that Trump was shot at and slightly wounded in the ear. It could be by a bullet, or fragments of the bullet or fragments of something else. This has become one of those say it often enough and it BECOMES truth. Not good. Oghma6 (talk) 18:38, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
"shot or shot at"? I don't know if there's a language problem here, but this was no accident. He was obviously "shot at" because that was the intention of the shooter. He was "shot" because his ear tip was grazed by the bullet. Even grazing counts as a hit. It was a close call. His ear could have been shot off or his skull been hit. As for fragments, bullets are designed to not fragment until they have hit an object, and even then, they often only mushroom. Even if, for some weird reason, it had fragmented, and a fragment grazed Trump's ear, that still counts as a hit.
This is not a situation where we repeat the episode for scientific purposes while experts analyze and photograph every detail of the bullet's trajectory. We may never know simply because no one knows, and it's irrelevant anyway. This is a waste of time.
If a bullet fragmented before hitting its target, that would defeat its purpose. If one wants fragments, one uses a shotgun. I once saved a bullet lodged in the front leg of one of the many reindeer I shot in Greenland. The bullet passed through the lungs and was stopped by the front leg. It had mushroomed on impact very nicely, and there was no evidence, even after impact, of any fragmentation. There were bits of bone embedded in the lead, probably from the ribs it had passed through. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 22:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
While it's obvious he was shot at it still isn't clear what hit him. As long as it remains unclear it is improper to say he was shot. Period. The ONLY reliable source we have, so far, says "What struck former President Trump in the ear was a bullet, whether whole or fragmented into smaller pieces, fired from the deceased subject's rifle." doesn't help. Hit by fragments is not the same as shot so it can still not be said definitely that Trump was shot. Language matters, and it is being used as propaganda. As you said, we may never know, which only goes to my point that as long as we don't know then shot at is more "correct" terminology than shot. 2604:3D09:A079:E700:70CB:48F4:ABF8:7925 (talk) 21:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
My apologies to you and the moderator. I clicked submit without logging in first. It was not an attempt to hide authorship.
While it's obvious he was shot at it still isn't clear what hit him. As long as it remains unclear it is improper to say he was shot. Period. The ONLY reliable source we have, so far, says "What struck former President Trump in the ear was a bullet, whether whole or fragmented into smaller pieces, fired from the deceased subject's rifle." doesn't help. Hit by fragments is not the same as shot so it can still not be said definitely that Trump was shot. Language matters, and it is being used as propaganda. As you said, we may never know, which only goes to my point that as long as we don't know then shot at is more "correct" terminology than shot. Oghma6 (talk) 21:31, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
Please review WP:1AM and WP:DEADHORSE. This has been discussed extensively and there is a solid consensus. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:03, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
I'm aware it's been discussed ad nauseum. None of it changes the fact that it is still not clear as to whether or not Trump was shot. The level of obfuscation and deceit that accompany this person are astounding. As long as it remains unclear the wording MUST be shot at. To say something without clear proof is something Wikipedia is supposed to be doing it's best to avoid. Oghma6 (talk) 00:06, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
I've opened this under Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard because despite a solid consensus we do NOT know what caused his ear injury. It is a policy violation to say shot as that is not a neutral wording for what we actually know about the incident where as shot at is. In the 19th century a consensus of SCOTUS justices determined the tomato to be a vegetable, and in the 21st century a consensus of SCOTUS justices determined one American to be superior to any other American. Oghma6 (talk) 20:30, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Browne-2024 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Dilanian, Ken; Richards, Zoë (July 27, 2024). "FBI confirms that a bullet struck Trump's ear during assassination attempt". NBC News. Archived from the original on July 27, 2024. Retrieved July 27, 2024.

Donald Trump raised-fist photograph(s) inclusion in this main article

Latest comment: 1 month ago4 comments3 people in discussion

I was wondering why the raised fist photograph is not featured in this article? Is there an image that is non-copyrighted that could be included? Billybob2002 (talk) 18:04, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

You may wish to see the discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2024 July 14. –Gluonz talk contribs 18:08, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Or any images for that matter like those featured in Attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan's article? Billybob2002 (talk) 18:07, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Those images are part of a project with the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration. The raised-fist photograph is not, hence why it is included under a limited non-free clause. --Super Goku V (talk) 07:58, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Capitalization

Latest comment: 1 month ago4 comments3 people in discussion

@EvergreenFir: In "president Ronald Reagan", would the first bullet point in MOS:JOBTITLE not imply that "president" should be capitalized? I had been the one to initially change the capitalization to lowercase, but I changed it back after rereading MOS:JOBTITLE. –Gluonz talk contribs 17:46, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

@Gluonz It's honestly confusing. I thought it should be lowercase per the example "Mao met with US president Richard Nixon in 1972." I now I'm not sure. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:29, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
AP Stylebook says that it would be "President Ronald Reagan" and "US president since Ronald Reagan." The main thing for the Stylebook is if there words between the title "president" and the name "Ronald Reagan" for this case. That said, it seems like policy does not follow the AP Stylebook. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:03, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
I raised this issue at the guideline talkpage, and the consensus there seems to be in favor of capitalization. –Gluonz talk contribs 16:32, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Latest comment: 1 month ago1 comment1 person in discussion

These articles give a pattern for how this article may one day be renamed, in the event that content from this September's incident stays as a separate article.

A revised title for this article might be Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania. Wizmut (talk) 22:28, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Change the title

Latest comment: 1 month ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Please change the title to "Attempted Assassination of Donald Trump (July 2024). The FBI confirms that today's incident was also an attempt on his life. 192.42.55.22 (talk) 22:42, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Redirects needing checking

Latest comment: 1 month ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The incoming redirects [1] to here Attempted assassination of Donald Trump (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) will need checking, to see if all of them are still appropriate, or if any of them should point to the disambiguation page Donald Trump shooting (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) that Bluethricecreamman built, or the new incident at Trump International Golf Club shooting (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), or to Security incidents involving Donald Trump (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) -- 64.229.88.34 (talk) 23:35, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Head Turn

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I would like to recommend the addition that when Trump turned to look at the chart being displayed behind him, he also leaned to his left to be able to continue speaking into the microphone. The shooter had targeted the center of Trump's head just before that turn. 50.206.176.156 (talk) 00:41, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree, there was a video showing exactly the angle and time of it. BeyondPerfection (talk) 02:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

"Donald Trump shooting" listed at Redirects for discussion

Latest comment: 1 month ago1 comment1 person in discussion

  The redirect Donald Trump shooting has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 September 16 § Donald Trump shooting until a consensus is reached. 64.229.88.34 (talk) 05:04, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Move revert

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments1 person in discussion

To make those viewing page history aware, I reverted a vandalistic move of the main article and talk page, which is why there is only one revision. For some reason, talk page and article histories are over at Talk:Donald Trump assassination hoax and Donald Trump assassination hoax. SirMemeGod  18:59, 17 September 2024 (UTC)~~

Never mind, issue has been fixed. SirMemeGod  19:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Moved again?

Latest comment: 1 month ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Why was this reverted back to the original title? cookie monster 755 04:10, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

#Requested move 15 September 2024 was closed by an involved editor, and the discussion has been reopened by an administrator. SilverLocust 💬 04:24, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
Ok thank you. cookie monster 755 04:38, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Coordinates

Latest comment: 1 month ago5 comments3 people in discussion

In the infobox there is no coordinates where it says there is. Does anyone know what they are or should i go into the infobox ànd get rid of that row Sushidude21! (talk) 08:06, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Okay, partly restored using the data from Connoquenessing Township, Butler County, Pennsylvania, but the infobox isn't fixed. I assume that the issue is that this article got moved around so much that the data isn't synced up correctly, presumably on Wikidata given the infobox. If that can be fixed, then the coordinates will be accurate and we can revert my edit as there is an accuracy issue. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:44, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
Hmm. It might be Wikidata:Q127421251 as the history shows this edit from when the initial move occurred. But trying to undo it causes an error and says that it is connected to Wikidata:Q130321009. "The link enwiki:Attempted assassination of Donald Trump is already used by Item Q130321009. You may remove it from Q130321009 if it does not belong there or merge the Items if they are about the exact same topic." And trying to delete the line at "Q130" gives a different error, "The action you are about to take will remove a sitelink from this item. Sitelinks should only be removed if the page in question has been deleted, or if that link is being moved into another item. If you are trying to do neither of these, please do not submit this edit again." But we are not trying to move the link at "Q130" to another item, so I am a bit unsure what the remedy is here. --Super Goku V (talk) 09:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
  Fixed, I was able to remove it from Q130. ObserveOwl (talk) 11:51, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for doing so. :D --Super Goku V (talk) 18:59, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Use another photo of Trump shot on the infobox.

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion

While we can't use the most famous image of Trump due to it being copyrighted and already used once on the article about it, we can still use a different photo of him shot if it is only used on this article. MountainDew20 (talk) 19:43, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

File:Shooting_of_Donald_Trump.webp - "Not replaceable with free media because (WP:NFCC#1) The moment has passed, and this is a historic event. No new free images of the event may be created, and even audience amateur video of the event will not capture the full extent of the injuries and his unique pose at that moment"
I struggle to see how a different photo could be used in this article, especially after all of the debates that occurred about using this photo. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:06, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

The titles are actually interchangable.

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I see that the titles are interchangable but, maybe we shouldn't change it just to keep it clear. 2601:483:400:1CD0:7DB7:53B4:C60:78D3 (talk) 15:53, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

What titles? Slatersteven (talk) 17:11, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Rename to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump (July 2024)?

Latest comment: 1 month ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Since the hatnote says "This article is about the July 2024 assassination attempt. For the September 2024 incident...", shouldn't the title include the date as the differentiator, and not the location? (And the same with Trump International Golf Club shooting, probably, which I'll take up there). --ZimZalaBim talk 17:41, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Aw, I opened another topic without looking! Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with you. 2601:44:180:98B0:559:3AEE:E206:A0AA (talk) 21:25, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
See the move discussion five sections above this one. –Gluonz talk contribs 21:33, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

"the former president"

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion

@Neveselbert: When a source refers to Trump as "the former president", he already has been mentioned earlier in the source, so the definite article can be used. That usage does not make sense when Trump is being defined in the first sentence of this article, as multiple former presidents exist. Therefore, an indefinite article should be used. –Gluonz talk contribs 21:22, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

That's not how it works. There isn't any other former president by the name of Donald Trump, so the definite article is indeed warranted in this context. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 22:33, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Should this article's name be changed?

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The name 'Attempted assassination of Donald Trump' seems to be not specific enough, now that there have been two. The name of the other attempt's article is 'Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Florida'-should this article be renamed to 'Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania' ? 2601:44:180:98B0:559:3AEE:E206:A0AA (talk) 21:23, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

This is already being discussed. Look further up the page. Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:35, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Trump shouted fight, not mouthed

Latest comment: 1 month ago8 comments6 people in discussion

Trump SHOUTED the word "Fight" multiple times, he did not merely mouth the words. Multiple sources, as well as Trump's own RNC speech, confirm this. 192.42.55.22 (talk) 02:57, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you provide a link to a reliable source that says this? --Super Goku V (talk) 05:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
All sources that I've seen have said he MOUTHED the words Best, Zeke (talk) 11:00, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
That is my understanding as well. --Super Goku V (talk) 21:04, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

In the RNC speech Trump gave here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc5NgBZXdtI he says that he shouted "Fight, fight, fight" about ten minutes into the speech. (10:27 - 11:02) Billybob2002 (talk) 01:13, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Trump says he did. But we need a reliable source that confirms it to include. Do we have a link to a reliable source that says this? --Super Goku V (talk) 04:39, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
Doesn't mouthing the words "fight fight fight" simply involve opening and closing your mouth 3 times like a goldfish? Polygnotus (talk) 09:29, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
Exactly. What Trump actually did was communicate an emotion, and in a way for the history books. Labeling that a "mouthing" diminishes his accomplishment (and I have to suspect that's intentional) but that's the way the sources do it, so that's how it'll have to be here. Marcus Markup (talk) 13:16, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Article for Corey Comperatore

Latest comment: 1 month ago3 comments3 people in discussion

Corey Comperatore, the man who was killed by Mr. Crooks in the assassination attempt, should be split into his own article just like Thomas Delahanty, a victim of the Ronald Reagan shooting who would otherwise not have his own article (even if he was not murdered). DementiaGaming (talk) 20:27, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I would argue Thomas Delahanty fails 1E and should be deleted. C F A 💬 20:31, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
The only way we're going to find out if it fails BLP1E is to create the article and see if the community decides to keep it. There was a deletion discussion regarding Thomas Delahanty based on BLP1E, and while it wasn't much of a discussion, the result was keep. Kcmastrpc (talk) 20:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 15 September 2024

Latest comment: 1 month ago121 comments86 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. This move request has been lingering in the backlog for a while so I will go ahead and close the discussion. When the discussion first started, there were several editors who wanted to wait to see the outcome of the of the requested move of the other assassination attempt and to wait and see if the other attempt would even be categorized as such. Now that time has passed, and the other article was moved, editors here primarily supported to complete the move here. The main point that the opposition brought up is that this article is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and the title should remain without the further disambiguation. They also noted that the requested title does not include the year and there were other proposed names that added it to the title. The supporters largely countered by stating that the new title is supported by WP:PRECISE and WP:TWODABS and, now that the other article was moved, is WP:CONSISTENT with each other. Whether calling the other incident an assassination attempt falls out of favor in the future or is forgotten is to be seen, and if so, this move can be revisited. For now, in this current discussion, there is a clear consensus to move the article to Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania. (non-admin closure) cyberdog958Talk 04:16, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Attempted assassination of Donald Trump → Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania – Even if the new incident doesn't get a title move it seems clear that "in Pennsylvania" would be a better title per WP:PRECISE to sufficiently differentiate the two incidents. Esolo5002 (talk) 22:48, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Collapsing a large thread. Safiel (talk)
Support, there has been a second attempt Scuba 23:53, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Wait pending the outcome of the discussion on the golf club incident. --WellThisIsTheReaper Grim 00:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Agreed. SS Director just said he never had a line of sight. Does that mean it was attempted( especially since he never shot? It’s hard to say. But it must be some sort of Wikipedia page, REGARDLESS. Possible “Threats to Donald Trumps life”? IEditPolitics (talk) 21:35, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Security incidents involving Donald Trump contains a summary of individual incidents. I personally think "attempt" should be any plots where concrete actions were taken, even if they were foiled somewhere past the incipient stages. Assassination attempts on Adolf Hitler (sorry, Godwin) encompasses a lot of "attempts" that I would say only rise to the level of "aborted plots", but I think that page is fine as it is.-Ich (talk) 11:28, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Support, the FBI has called the Florida incident an assassination attempt. Benpiano800 (talk) 00:16, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support. The FBI has already stated this was an assassination attempt. 24.139.63.156 (talk) 00:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
What's your source for this? O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Per DOJ press release, "Ryan Wesley Routh indicted for attempted assassination of former President Trump." Lunaroxas (talk) 01:28, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Wait for further developments on the golf course incident. Altorespite 🌿 02:04, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support but wait Warm Regards, Miminity (talk) (contribs) 03:02, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support - Obviously we have to differentiate between the two assassination attempts. They're both absolutely deserving of their own independent article.
MightyLebowski (talk) 11:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Mild Support: I see the recentism argument but when people search for the current title they're more likely to be searching for the second attempt which is being called an attempt pretty widely. Jtrrs0 (talk) 12:51, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
strongly support this title for the purpose of differentiating for now with a more concise and clear name being chosen at a later date DarmaniLink (talk) 12:58, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose: the location of the events seems irrelevant and does not help the reader clearly find this article vs. the other one, unless they already know detailed information about where each event took place. The dates each event took place are much more sensible for disambiguation. Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 13:37, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Strong Support: as there has been second one. Car234 (talk) 13:38, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Wait for further developments. Nightmares26 (talk) 15:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support, per Scuba LuxembourgLover (talk) 18:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support per official classification as assassination attempt. Orchastrattor (talk) 18:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support.. also possible support July 2024 Attempted Assassination of Donald Trump as per Unnamed anon below. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 23:35, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support there was recently another attempted assassination on Donald Trump which happened at a golf club just a couple of days ago, but waiting for confirmation on wether if it was targeted at Donald Trump or not, so will wait until any reliable sources confirm it. Overall, I support the name change. PEPSI697 (💬 • 📝) 07:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose, support July 2024 Attempted assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania, if it were between having the date or location, I think users would search for the date more often Kowal2701 (talk) 20:14, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Move to July 2024 Attempted assassination of Donald Trump DimensionalFusion (talk ▪ she/her) 17:27, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
Support. DOJ has indicted Ryan Routh for attempting to assassinate Trump. Lunaroxas (talk) 01:30, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
YES, CHANGE IT. It makes ZERO sense for it to just be called “Assassination attempt of Donald Trump” or whatever the article is called, when there have been TWO OF THEM. And only a month apart. I don’t get why there’s a debate on this. Eg224 (talk) 16:06, 26 September 2024 (UTC) Eg224 (talk) 16:08, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Support. Per WP:TWODABS Nightmares26 (talk) 05:04, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
How is this not over yet? SpringField23402 (talk) 03:33, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
Support per nom - Jjpachano (talk) 01:28, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per proposal. For the sake of readers, it's imperative to different both assassination attempts. Nevertheless, we need to wait until this second attempt is widely comfirmed. The FBI claim is not sufficient enough.

Wår (talk) 00:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Wait I haven't even seen that a shot was fired. Most likely it was an attempt. But this is an encyclopedia, not a Breaking News site. Patience. O3000, Ret. (talk) 00:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose, the other one is on par with the Las Vegas incident. Trump wasn't hurt, and no one was. This is clearly the common name Personisinsterest (talk) 00:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Comment: I think the date is a more obvious separation between the later attempt and this one, rather than location. So, assuming the new incident is confirmed to be an assassination attempt, move this to July 2024 Attempted assassination of Donald Trump, and the other one to September 2024 Attempted assassination of Donald Trump. Unnamed anon (talk) 00:46, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support Unnamed anon's proposal. Fourmidable (talk) 02:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support I think that dates would be a better way to disambiguate assassination attempts in case multiple attempts take place in the same state. Jesse Viviano (talk) 05:10, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support. Dates are better than states, people won't really know the locations as much as the time, they will know one came after the other, however. MarkiPoli (talk) 06:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support, the dates are a much clearer way of distinguishing the two events (although "Attempted" should be in all lowercase). Y2Kcrazyjoker4 (talk • contributions) 13:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support Unnamed anon's proposal and all lowercase letters. - Sebbog13 (talk) 14:55, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support the date-based proposal. This seems a lot more clear for people who aren’t as familiar with where each event happened. PiGuy3 (talk) 23:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Too early - while the incident in Florida is being described as an assassination attempt, it is still to early to determine whether or not this will no longer be the primary topic or not. There is a strong possibility that the Pennsylvania incident will be what most people associate with when they hear "Trump assassination attempt." Bneu2013 (talk) 02:00, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Note: WikiProject United States presidential elections, WikiProject United States History, WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, WikiProject Politics, WikiProject Politics/American politics, WikiProject Pittsburgh, WikiProject Pennsylvania, WikiProject Death, WikiProject United States, and WikiProject United States Presidents have been notified of this discussion. RodRabelo7 (talk) 02:05, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose: As per WP:Precise and WP:NOYEAR, I strongly agree that the name change must include the month and year of the events occurrence, to disambiguate between the two. I would recommend the name change to something more along the lines of July 2024 Attempted Assassination of Donald Trump, rather than the proposed. It is easier to tell the chronological order of the events in the title, and it is also easier to get quick context from the event in the title, being the most precise. Using the state, or even state and town name, could leave people confused by clicking on the wrong article when they wanted to view the first one instead of the second one. Furthermore, multiple news sources have stated that the FBI has deemed the September 2024 incident as an attempted assassination, as per AP News (being one of the most reliable news sources). Best, Zeke (talk) 02:26, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
I agree with this. Your recommendation (July 2024 Attempted Assassination of Donald Trump) is a lot more in line with Wikipedia naming policies. Can I has Cheezburger? (talk) 22:58, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Support This is analogous to Attempted assassination of Gerald Ford in Sacramento and Attempted assassination of Gerald Ford in San Francisco. No shots were actually fired in Sacramento, and both incidents are still well known almost 50 years later. Cullen328 (talk) 02:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Support Adding 'in Pennsylvania' does no harm and addresses the fact that today's event is being widely referred to as an 'assassination attempt'. Readers coming here on a search for information about it should be presented with a clear and disambiguated article title, and not be expected to read hat notes to know they're not at the article they were expecting. Marcus Markup (talk) 02:36, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

@Marcus Markup: how do you feel about the disambiguation being the date (July 2024 vs September 2024) rather than location (in Pennsylvania vs in Florida)? Whether they should be disambiguated is one question, how they should be is another. I suggested date separation above, and would like to know if there are any issues with that suggestion. Unnamed anon (talk) 02:48, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
That would be fine. However the title gets disambiguated, that would be great. At the moment, though, I am supporting this proposal. It is not how I would phrase it, but it's better than what it is now by a mile, and I am not going to let the search for perfection get in the way of the good. Marcus Markup (talk) 03:07, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
I personally feel as though it should contain the date and month, but would July 2024 Attempted Assassination of Donald Trump in Pennsylvania be too long of a title? I'm not against the location being in the title completely, I just also feel that a date should be included in the title as well to disambiguate. Best, Zeke (talk) 02:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
In my opinion, it should be one or the other of date or location, not both. I'm not opposed to location either, despite suggesting date, I just personally think date would be more helpful in knowing which came first. Unnamed anon (talk) 02:52, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
That's how I feel about it as well. Date typically is the better way to disambiguate something like this than location, as the person looking for the article would more than likely be reading in chronological order rather than by what happened where Best, Zeke (talk) 02:54, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per comments from Personisinsterest. This event will go down in history as THE attempted assassination of Donald Trump, I would describe today's event as a security incident. The best course of action in my opinion would be to keep the current title (or perhaps add a date) and then have a hatnote directed at today's incident. GMH Melbourne (talk) 03:34, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

GMH Melbourne, do you feel the same way about Attempted assassination of Gerald Ford in Sacramento? Cullen328 (talk) 03:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
I think what makes this event more significant is the fact that Donald Trump was actually wounded. I'd speculate also that in 50 years time, when people refer to the assassination attempt of Donald Trump they would be referring to the time he was shot in the ear instead of a security incident on a golf course. GMH Melbourne (talk) 03:57, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support There is now more than one attempted assassination of Donald Trump, so we need to specify which attempt we're talking about. 2401:7000:CA09:4700:1448:4DE9:A398:6927 (talk) 04:15, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support Per Cullen; there is a precedent for disambigulating multiple assassination attempts in this manner. This title needs to be more specific and Attempted assassination of Donald Trump should be a dab page.LM2000 (talk) 04:32, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support There are now two attempts and both are notable for standalone articles. This is based on the FBI stating they were investigating the incident as an attempted assassination. Any incident deemed by the FBI an assassination attempt of a former president warrants a standalone article as such events are extremely notable. 24.21.161.89 (talk) 05:08, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Comment - I still stand by my previous !vote that this is too early. However, considering that the suspect in the Florida incident does not appear to have fired or attempted to fire at Trump, is there a chance that incident should be described as an "assassination plot" and not an "assassination attempt?" Other articles use this terminology. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:10, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Well let's see here. He was observed pointing a high power rifle into the golf club and the rifle had a long distance scope and lots of 7.62 ammo (7.62 is a large caliber round, by comparison the M16 rifle is 2.37) and Trump was playing golf at the time. He was armed with a military style assault rifle and not a hunting rifle, so it's clear he was probably not hunting geese or ducks, but Trump. I see no other explanation. Secret Service wisely fired on him and he fled and left the weapon behind. I am fairly confident this was an assassination attempt whether or not he succeeded in wounding or killing Trump or getting off a shot. In this attempt, secret service did their job. The FBI has announced it was an assassination attempt and the facts seem to bear this out. Waiting until there are more complete sources stating this certainly won't hurt but at this point I think we can logically conclude this was an attempted assassination. 24.21.161.89 (talk) 05:22, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Putting any type of politics aside, it is very clear that this was an attempted assassination attempt on someone, presumably Trump, but only time will tell with any investigation conclusion. But yes, you would not hunt geese in a bush with an AK-47 (think of AR or AK as a gun of military power) (AK's are the Russian AR's), you would hunt geese from a forest that isn't super dense, or field with a hunting rifle, an AK-47 would destroy the goose. However, when armed with an AK-47 and sitting in a bush, you are most likely hunting wild Trump in their natural habitat, especially when one is 400 yards away from you. Best, Zeke (talk) 05:33, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Media sources are calling this an attempted assassination (1, 2). Given that the suspect was actually camped out with a firearm, this went beyond a mere plot. 203.211.104.189 (talk) 06:30, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose, recentism aside, this is still the primary topic as it was the only assassination attempt in which shots were actually fired at Trump. Also, if we need to disambiguate both, we should use the months (July 2024 and September 2024) rather than the states they took place in – the only reason we use the states to disambiguate Ford's two assassination attempts is because they took place in the same month. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 07:24, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Support, we're going to have to differentiate. Joe (talk) 08:31, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose: WP:RECENTISM. As Trump was injured in the July event, it nearly is certain to return its primary topic status within a few weeks. The September incident is roughly as significant as the 2016 Donald Trump Las Vegas rally incident, yet Attempted assassination of Donald Trump is not a disambiguation page. A hatnote atop this article suffices. In the case of a move, I would prefer month disambiguation rather than location disambiguation for the reasons described by @Chaotic Enby. –Gluonz talk contribs 14:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Trump has survived 6 assassination attempts... you say, while defending having this article title phrased as if there were but one. I admit: I am completely perplexed by your logic. Marcus Markup (talk) 02:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Whether you agree or not, their logic is straightforward if you read their following sentence: "Look at how many attempts other presidents have survived and see how only the ones which caused casualties get this treatment". Their point is that security incidents similar to the Trump International Golf Club shooting look like 2011 White House shooting (or even Barack Obama assassination plot in Denver or Barack Obama assassination plot in Tennessee). Dylnuge (Talk • Edits) 12:45, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
WP:OTHERSTUFF arguments deserve, and usually receive, little weight with closers. Marcus Markup (talk) 12:59, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
That's a deletion ATA; in MRs consistency with the naming conventions of other similar articles is a core part of WP:AT. Dylnuge (Talk • Edits) 14:50, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I support the move 2601:282:4700:272:45F5:4DEE:234A:2B20 (talk) 18:20, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

  • Support as per WP:PRECISE. The generic title fails to identify where and in what context the assassination attempt occurred. The FBI has charged the culprit behind the golf course attempt as an assassination attempt so it makes sense to differentiate the two articles. No need to wait any longer the move request should be speedily made. Please close this rename discussion it's been here for 15 fays, more than enough time to see what happens. 24.21.161.89 (talk) 23:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Strong Support for the clear factual reason that Trump experienced two assassination attempts, one in Pennsylvania, and one soon after in Florida. Thus, they need differentiation. Why are we even debating this any longer? TheKingLives (talk) 22:13, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
  • Strong Support because the existing title is too generic, and as there have now been two assassination attempts within a two-month period of one another on the same person, though they occurred in two different states, I think it's time we change the title of this article to reflect that this one is about the assassination attempt in Pennsylvania. Unknown0124 (talk) 17:59, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 October 2024

Latest comment: 1 month ago2 comments2 people in discussion
  • What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}):

In the section Entertainment affected:

−
Black later said via Instagram that he would never condone hate speech or encourage political violence in any form.
+
Black later said via Instagram that he "would never condone hate speech or encourage political violence in any form."
  • Why it should be changed:

Wrap in quotes since it is the same as in the source

Calbabreaker (talk) 17:40, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

  Done Bowler the Carmine | talk 23:14, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2024

Latest comment: 30 days ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Dylpickle874 (talk) 18:02, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I noticed some minor problems here, so that's why I came to fix it. Nothing more. That's all.

You have e not told us what they are. Slatersteven (talk) 18:12, 10 October 2024 (UTC)
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