Talk:Antoun Saadeh

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I don't feel that this paragraph is NPOV

His thoughts occupy a unique position among contemporary "Arab" social thinkers and philosophers for giving both philosophy and social science a prominent role in the development of a social ideology, for viewing nationalism as a tool to transform traditional society into a dynamic and progressive one, and for his view on secularization which went beyond the socio-political aspects of the question into its philosophical dimensions.

Wikipedia should limit itself to describe Saade's thoughts, not present them as unique--equitor 19:21, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

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The problem is the writer of this article and many readers are very much politically oriented even in reading a Philosophical subject dealing with social or historical extends. Syrian10 (talk) 04:09, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Scholarly references for Fascist and Nazi influences

I added the following scholarly references describing the Sa'adeh's Fascist and Nazi influences. Please comment here in the inclusion of these facts. Histopher Critchens (talk) 11:26, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

1. Ya’ari, Ehud (1987). "Behind the Terror". Atlantic Monthly. [The SSNP] greet their leaders with a Hitlerian salute; sing their Arabic anthem, "Greetings to You, Syria," to the strains of "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles"; and throng to the symbol of the red hurricane, a swastika in circular motion. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)
2. Pipes, Daniel (1992). Greater Syria. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195060229. The SSNP flag, which features a curved swastika called the red hurricane (zawba'a), points to the party's fascistic origins.
3. Rolland, John C. (2003). Lebanon. Nova Publishers. ISBN 1590338715. [The SSNP's] red hurricane symbol was modeled after the Nazi swastika.
4. Johnson, Michael (2001). All Honourable Men. I.B.Tauris. ISBN 1860647154. Saadeh, the party's 'leader for life', was an admirer of Adolph Hitler and influenced by Nazi and fascist ideology. This went beyond adopting a reversed swastika as the party's symbol and singing the party's anthem to Deutschland über alles, and included developing the cult of a leader, advocating totalitarian government, and glorifying an ancient pre-Christan past and the organic whole of the Syrian Volk or nation.
5. Becker, Jillian (1984). The PLO: The Rise and Fall of the Palestine Liberation Organization. Weidenfeld and Nicolson. ISBN 0297785478. [The SSNP] had been founded in 1932 as a youth movement, deliberately modeled on Hitler's Nazi Party. For its symbol it invented a curved swastika, called the Zawbah.
6. Yamak, Labib Zuwiyya (1966). The Syrian Social Nationalist Party: An Ideological Analysis. Harvard University Press.
7. Nikki R. Keddie (2006). Princeton University Press (ed.). Women in the Middle East: Past and Present (illustrated ed.). p. 97. ISBN 0691128634. The leading Nazi-influenced group was the Syrian National Party
8. Matthias Küntzel, Colin Meade (2007). Telos Press Publishing (ed.). Jihad and Jew-hatred: Islamism, Nazism and the Roots of 9/11. p. 26. ISBN 0914386360. Back in 1932 Antun Saadeh had founded the Syrian People's Party which asserted the superiority of Syrians over other peoples and followed Nazi models even in its outward expressions, a swastika-like flag, the open-handed salute, etc. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |translation= ignored (help)

Fixed, and removed the part about the anthem. There is no similarity.

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Daniel Pipes does not qualify to be neutral author who may speak about Saadeh. Daniel Pipes worked to stop the funding of middle eastern studies.you know what that means.Syrian10 (talk) 14:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC) --- Also, I explained in another place that the SSNP flag sign ZAWBAA is taken from the Hurrican sign in action of removing the black surrounding area of the backward trends. I see Zawbaa closer in shape to CHASE BANK logo. Does that make any sense.Syrian10 (talk) 14:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC) You think Chase bank is influenced by Swastika.Syrian10 (talk) 14:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

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Zawbaa Please look also at Chase logo. This work shows you that comparing Zawbaa to Swastica is a defaming politically motivated talk.Syrian10 (talk) 14:36, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Claims of Nazi model are erroneous

These claims make no sense as the SSNP was founded in 1932. Please use causality and logic (or at least claim that the SSNP looked to Mussolini and Ataturk, both far more supportable with actual documentation) 72.152.78.91 (talk) 19:18, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

However, the German Nazi party was somewhat internationally famous after the Beer hall putsch of 1923 and the publication of Mein Kampf in 1925/1926, and in 1932 it was already fairly clearly well on its way to power. I don't know about the details of the sources, but I'm afraid there is some visual resmblance between the symbols... AnonMoos (talk) 11:23, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

It is ridiculous that Wikipedia has allowed the assertions of Saadeh's links to Hitler and fascism to continue without first verifying the veracity of such claims. These accusations are libelous propaganda, nothing more, and have no basis in fact. To continue to entertain them demonstrates wikipedia's complete disregard for the accuracy of the information it is presenting to the public. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in Saadeh's writings, the history of the party, or the events that led to the founding of the SSNP which suggests that Saadeh was in anyway influenced by or linked to Hitler and/or the Nazi ideology. If any of the wikipedia editors bother to read Saadeh's writings they would know that; but instead they are relying on rabid propagandists to present information that is as far away from the truth and the facts as you can possibly be. Wikipedia should maintain a degree of professionalism if it is to act as an online encyclopedia.

Syrian77 (talk) 00:17, 23 March 2009 (UTC)Syrian77

There are plenty of references. Are you saying they're made up, wrong, or what? Rd232 ^talk 01:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

What references? You mean the statements by westerners and zionists that Saadeh was influenced by Hitler? Where are the references in the writings of Saadeh or in the history of the Party that demonstrate that he was influenced by Hitler or by Nazi ideology. It is easy for so-called "experts" and "intellectuals" to throw haphazard accusations such as this. There is more evidence in the writings of Winston Churchill that Churchill was influenced by Hitler and by Nazi ideology, yet I don't see wikipedia make such claims in its article on churchill. Churchill, for example, when referring to the rights of Palestinians, stated: "I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." Further, even in reference to Hitler himself, Churchill declared in 1937, in his book "Great Contemporaries":"One may dislike Hitler’s system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as indomitable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Syrian77 (talk • contribs) 12:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

The references you ask for (from the subject's writings, etc) are no doubt in the academic references cited. If you have a suggestion about improving the Winston Churchill article, go there and propose it, it's not relevant here. Rd232 ^talk 22:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

"westerners and zionists" Hum, yeah, right. About how you are analyzing the primary material yourself instead of citing secondary sources, see the policy about not engaging into original research. About "what references", see rd232's reply. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Syrian77 here. I think he/she's made an excellent well-researched argument. You have my support for cleaning up this Nazi smear campaign of the SSNP. Good research on Churchill, if people are going to let this nonsense sit, then two can play that game. Just make your sensible revisions and if there is any well-reasoned opposition, the issue can go to the mediation committee. Greater Syria (talk) 02:48, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

2016

There are fundamental differences between the two ideologies. Too many to list here, starting with the fundamental definition of a nation. The Nazism is based on the master race and race hierarchy ideology where the SSNP is based on a the concept of a multi-race nation embracing its citizens regardless of their race, religion, or origin. Propaganda is a multi-process scheme to poison public opinion. Propagandist starts by taking over the mass media/entertainment, then by making a few armatures (in their domain) famous depicting them as experts in their domain, then dictating to those armatures/imbeciles what to say, and when to say it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.168.152.235 (talk) 13:34, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

As discussed previously, he didn't very closely model himself on Hitler, but there were definite general fascist influences, including the shape of the "Hurricane" symbol, and the title زعيم za`īm, which was a pretty direct translation of the fascist titles duce (Italian) / conducător (Romanian) / führer / caudillo (Spanish) etc. AnonMoos (talk) 16:02, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

"fascists" category

Someone removed category:fascists and asked "why?". The answer is: because of the multiple reliable sources showing the fascist influences in Saadeh and on the creation of his party. To those sources you can add Time magazine [1], "A history of fascism" by historian Stanley G. Payne [2], "The struggle over Lebannon" by Tabitha Petran (another historian?) [3], "The conscience of Lebanon" by Mordechai Nisan [4], etc. The google books search shows quite a few restricted view books that seem to be saying the same thing. --Enric Naval (talk) 02:35, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Again, there is no evidence whatsoever, either in the ideology or the history of the SSNP, linking Saadeh to Hitler or to Nazism. In fact, Saadeh criticized Nazism itself in one of his speeches and described it as a "destructive ideology." The secondary sources you are listing are biased source with a clear propagandistic agenda. You are relying on those sources to justifiy your insistence on maintaining the assertion that Saadeh was influenced by Hitler. There are many secondary sources making outrageous claims about just about anything and anyone, but you don't cite all of them because you can reasonably conclude when sources are not reliable. The sources you are mentioning do not analyze or research Saadeh and his movement in arriving at their claims, they merely make the accusations without substantiating them. 76.243.185.98 (talk) 02:31, 15 April 2009 (UTC)Syrian77

I don't care either way, but the sources given in the article are scholarly and substantial, and your assertion that they are biased is worth nothing; you'll need to provide substantial verifiable reliable sources to contradict the weight of these (WP:V / WP:RS). Also don't confuse Nazism and fascism. Rd232 ^talk 03:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

There are other sources, including Adel Bshara's "Syrian Nationalism" and Haytham A. Kader's biography of Antoun Saadeh as well as his "Ideology of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party." Both are much more well-versed in the Social Nationalist ideology and have a much better grasp of the history of the SSNP. And I do not confuse between Nazism and Fascism, it is you who confuses between different and contradictory ideologies, and insist on relying on clearly partial sources, who have not done any thorough study of the Social nationalist ideology, to maintain the wild and haphazard accusations against Saadeh of his links to nazism and fascism, both of which Saadeh clearly attacked and criticized in his writings. In any case, this is just part of the struggle against misinformation and factual distortions. 76.241.110.200 (talk) 16:42, 1 May 2009 (UTC)Syrian77

First of all, the sources that you have brought up, Adel Bshara's "Syrian Nationalism" and Haytham A. Kader's biography of Antoun Saadeh as well as his "Ideology of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party", which you describe as "much more well-versed in the Social Nationalist ideology and have a much better grasp of the history of the SSNP" actually support the argument that Saadeh was a Fascist. Bshara's and Kader's works show the SSNP as a Fascist group, mainly due to several of the group's traits: the adoption of a reversed swastika as the party's symbol, the singing of the party's anthem to Deutschland über alles, the development of a cult of the leader (Saadeh), the advocation of totalitarian government, the glorification of an ancient pre-Christan past, and the organic whole of the Syrian Volk or nation. Second, as for these writing of Saadeh in which he "cleary attacked and criticized" Nazism and Fascism, I would like to see them, as the writings of Saadeh that I have read appear (at least to me) to adovcate Fascist ideals. In my opinion, Saadeh is, most assuredly, a Fascist, but if you can prove otherwise, I will believe and support you. Cheers! --Laurinavicius (talk) 21:19, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

It seems that Adel Shaba's "Syrian Nationism" is an unpublished Master thesis[5] (footnote 14), and that Haytham A Kader's biography is also unpublished outside of SSNP's website. I have failed to find any other works by these two authors, or any independient reviews of their work, published or not. --Enric Naval (talk) 23:00, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

weasel wording and misrepresentation of sources

ALL reliable sources mentioning the origins or the flag say the same thing about the nazi/fascist influences and about the flag being a swastika. The sources plainly state those things as direct facts. Wording it as "allegued by some sources" or "seen by some" is misrepresentating the weight of the views in the sources. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:54, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Caluminous accusations of fascism

Sadeh himself said:[6]

I want to use this opportunity to say that the system of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party is neither a Hitlerite nor a Fascist one, but a pure social nationalist one. It is not based on useless imitation, but is instead the result of an authentic invention -- which is a virtue of our people.

Sa'adeh himself declared that "the system of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party is neither a Hiterlite nor a Fascist one". However, actions speak louder than words, and Sa'adeh's actions speak quite loudly to me. As Enric Naval put it "ALL credible sources" say the same thing about Sa'adeh's relationship with Facism. Here are the facts, which is a direct quote from a summary I wrote earlier on this page: "First of all, the sources that you have brought up, Adel Bshara's "Syrian Nationalism" and Haytham A. Kader's biography of Antoun Saadeh as well as his "Ideology of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party", which you describe as "much more well-versed in the Social Nationalist ideology and have a much better grasp of the history of the SSNP" actually support the argument that Saadeh was a Fascist. Bshara's and Kader's works show the SSNP as a Fascist group, mainly due to several of the group's traits: the adoption of a reversed swastika as the party's symbol, the singing of the party's anthem to Deutschland über alles, the development of a cult of the leader (Saadeh), the advocation of totalitarian government, the glorification of an ancient pre-Christan past, and the organic whole of the Syrian Volk or nation. Second, as for these writing of Saadeh in which he "cleary attacked and criticized" Nazism and Fascism, I would like to see them, as the writings of Saadeh that I have read appear (at least to me) to adovcate Fascist ideals." In all of the writings and works of Sa'adeh that I have read or seen, Sa'adeh has greatly promoted Facist ideals, and this one quote that you brought up is the only thing I have yet to see in which Sa'adeh attempts to disasociate himself with Nazism and Fascism ideologies. As all credible sources that I have seen or heard of (including Sa'adeh's writings) show that he was influenced by Fascist and Nazi ideology, advocated its usage, and implemented substantial amounts of it into his own party, Sa'adeh is indeed, in my own eyes, a Fascist. If you have more credible sources that show Sa'adeh to not be a Fascist, please bring them up. In the meantime, your edit will have to be reverted, as all credible sources point in the opposite direction on this topic. My regards, Laurinavicius (talk) 01:19, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Whatever your argument is you can't delete a direct quote from the person himself; this is against Wikipedia rules. And another thing many academic scholars would say that sources from people like Daniel Pipes are not even close to "credible"; if you do just some research..minute research..you will find out that Pipes works for a Zionist think-tank and almost all his work is tainted with a political agenda.George Al-Shami (talk) 01:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out that you can't delete a direct quote from the person who the article is about as I had never known that that was against Wikipedia rules. Also, I have done background research on Pipes and I do know that he is a extremely pro-Zionist "Islamophobe". However, the only usage of Pipes' works are in regards to the SSNP flag, "which features a curved swastika called the red hurricane (zawba'a), pointing to the party's fascistic origins" as stated by Histopher Critchens earlier on this page. However, there are numerous other scholarly references which say pretty much the same thing, at least seven or eight of whicha are already mentioned on this talk page. If necessary, I could procure some more, if you wish for me to do so. But, you were right to add another paragraph to the article explaining the other point of view, which is, by far, the best and most logical thing to do in this situation. Thank you, and happy editing! Laurinavicius (talk) 02:59, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

That quote is taken out of context, and the matter is more complicated than it looks like, see [7][8] and there are still lots of details to work out into the article.... --Enric Naval (talk) 03:32, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

This is utter nonsense. The SSNP's anthem is NOT sung to the tune of "Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles." This is an accusation made by Daniel Pipes originally and then copied by other pseudo-intellectuals. You can listen to both anthems and plainly realize that they have no relation, but instead you prefer to lazily quote a vulgar propagandist that is on the same level of Alan Derschowitz, who recently claimed that the Palestinian people played a significant role in the Jewish holocaust. These are laughable accusations with no verification. Also, Beshara and Kader's books do not in anyway substantiate the "Fascist" claims and I don't know wher you got that. 76.241.115.97 (talk) 23:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)Syrian77

I agree with everything you've said and I will back you up. (talk) 04:18, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore I'd like to inform that the german flag didn't use a Swastika, it used a Hakenkreuz, this is notable in the lyrics of the Horst Wessel Lied and also the BluhtFahne Hakenkreuz (which many substitute Hakenkreuz for Swastika since it's easier to say that then German). The Symbol in the flag is actually a hurricane as told here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Social_Nationalist_Party#Emblem_and_flag, it's colors also represent different things from the german nazi flag. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2804:14D:32B5:4A1E:4C65:72B7:B6AC:3616 (talk) 05:15, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Bibliography

I’ve started to put in order the Bibliography of and on Antun Saada: Books of Saasd were mixed with books and articles on Saada and informations are incompletes and sometime erroneous --Idris.albadufi (talk) 10:23, 8 October 2009 (UTC) __________ No matter what you say, the intention of many seems to be spotting Saadeh with negative images for many political biases we used to see against him. He simply did not negotiate his principals to gain any satisfaction of any side. Most Arabs attacked him because the main street was looking for religeous movements. The East attacked him, because he deeply criticesed communism to the extent of confrontasion. The west attacked him because he meant business in reversing the effects of the English-French conspiracy of dividing the fertile cresent into conflicting piceses divided by straight lines on the map. Every patriotic word was described as fascism. The best way to present his works correctly is a comparing studies. We need to study his Principals by comparing his works to the world constitutions starting at the US which I believe we can find some 95% ground match of all constitutional similarities. then compare it with the English, French, German, Italian and some Arabic systems especially those who made example of worst dictatorships and continued to accuse him as fascist.Syrian10 (talk) 02:59, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Correction

I am an ex SSNP member who deeply studied Antoun Saadeh works. I would like to comment here that Wikipedia has incorrectly presented the brief summary about Antoun Saadeh. The summary is repeating political accusations based on the views of those who put him to trial and execution in less than 48 Hours instead of Quoting from his book "the 10 lectures" that present exactly the purpose of him as a Philosopher creating a political movement.

Who is Antoun Saadeh:

Traveled to Brazil with help and support from a family friend. 16 Years /Old, he was publishing, writing, editing and selling his news paper in Sao Paolo/Brazil. Spoke Arabic ,Portuguese, Spanish , English ,Italian and German.His political and Patriotic background as he says goes to the South American patriotic movements, also he published a resignation letter from the MASON organization, which in my openion,if made any background, it would not be a Nazi.

The story of Jesus Christ, Ultimate sacrifice has made a landmark in his thinking trying to find a central idea that may connect the dots of religion, history, ideology and philosophy in the Syrian society that he was trying to influence in a wakeup mission. This story for him reflected a Canaanite belief of “sacrifice is the road for freedom” He succeeded in replicating the story in his own death that all his followers now celebrate on the 7th of July , first he refused to have his eyes covered before execution, they told him, but this is the law, he answered” I accept the law” the priest who accompanied him told “ Saadeh said I die but my party will continue to be an everlasting movement” and also said Thank you three times before the bullets blow his heart and neck.he acted as a philosopher rather than a politician.

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The priest who was asked to pray for him before execution told the story, that himself entered to the jail cell around 3 AM and he was amazed to find him actually in deep sleep, while Saadeh new the execution time was July 7th,6 Am. Good Morning Sir! Saadeh, woke up, Good morning father. I am here to pray for you. Saadeh, Thank you so much, and he took a pray position. again Sadeh thanked the priest with a calm and confident smile, refusing any help to get into the car that was supposed to transfer him to the White sand square. every officer on the way received from him a good morning salute.Syrian10 (talk) 03:03, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

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1-The claim of being influenced by Hitler is very wrong. his symbol was based on the shape and sign of Hurricane (influenced by the Annual Hurricane season in the Americas) , he wrote that his designer made it three wings first but then he decided to add one more wing to integrate with his mission described in four words ( Freedom, Duty, Discipline, Strength).

Beside that Freedom was his first personal value, unlike Hitler or any other Fascist leader, He wrote many times that the worst hurdle in the nation's life is the racing among politicians for the leading title position ( ZAAMAH ) in Arabic which means the Leader, and his suggestion to end that race was to ( regulate the title into an institution,owned by the nation and called ZAAMAH "Leadership" , that shall not be based on personal inheritence, power or gain, and then he excersised the authority of the title himself for the purpose of puting an end of an argument "who we are" He answered based on his book " The emergence of world nations" as "We are Syrians" and decided that the title "Zaeem= Leader" will be exclusive "ZAAMAH INSTITUTION" which authority is hold by him only as a founder of that answer "who we are" in a way , no one else shall be allowed to answer differently and explains that this is exactly why he thinks that the advanced nations are advanced is simply because they have their national character defined byond any doubt and beyond any power of any leader in these nations to re define or argue about the national character.That was the only point he said he wanted to see fixed for as long as the world is composed out of nations and everything else would be subject of change.

2-About His views of the institution , I can say that there was nothing closer to it than the INSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. for example, Like the USA, The president of the party has a term of 4 years not to be repeated more than once. The US president is elected, but the SSNP president , follows parliament style election. Which is simply more disanced from NAZI than the the US institution. Also he tried to use the concept of the “electoral vote”, but on a party level, by having members elect the House (House of Umanaa)of people known for their sacrifices, who in turn elect the "House Committee" who elect the president explaining himself as looking for a buffer zone that can protect the election process of a president. This same point made his enemies accuse him of Fascism instead of listening to his reason as a philosopher creating “election buffer zone” as in " Electoral Vote". Any one who reads this will find it weird to compare his party structure to the US institution. If you want to find why, look for the American Philosophers in the 1920s who started talking about their combined Philosophical approach in studying societies using three functions: “Big picture + Analysis .+ Function” driving an example in his book “ Nushooe El Umam” means emergence of world nations, that if you wanted to understand a given community in a small town, first you draw the whole picture when you drive toward that town . Then the closer you get to this town , you may draw more detail and you may analyze it’s component and finally to be able to add a study of how this town functions you need to live in it for a while. This is exactly what started to be the main stream approach in teaching Philosophy in the American collages. You can in fact give him credit to be one of the first to present this approach, at least 2-3 years ahead beginning 1921 .Nothing like this was ever discussed or presented except in the United States until after the second world war.

3-About the accusation of claiming superior Syrian race. You need to bring about complete wrightings as a contest to understand that he simply tried to find scientific analysis to reject the racist views. His writings about the Syrian Dynamic melt of multiple races, producing more Superior society (counting civil and cultural productivities) was in his view the exact why that racism does not produce superiority as Hitler suggested also he derived example from biological books, that races that did not mix with others , simple did not perform well in history. I do not find where people understand that he was racist in all this.Isn’t this philosophy what made the United States pursue attracting the immigrants of higher education and higher intelligence to the US in gaining better world position

4- Many described his Arabic views as dividing the Arabic world into 4 pieces. There are many articles of him summarize his view as consolidating the Arabic world in one political, economical and even military Union after guarantying that this will not interrupt the inside social or economical cycles inside the four nations that make up such union. Again in my view he admired the example of the USA where every state merge in the union in a way brings enough protection to independent state character.

5- Antoun Saadeh openly criticized the Arabic culture of Racism, saying Arabs and Germans were historically preoccupied with racism which caused many to attack him accusing him as Anti Arab.

6-He separated the State from religion, inviting for secular society that respect and value all religious beliefs without discrimination. Again I find that very similar to the United states institution that separated state from religion, yet kept the belief in GOD as a positive value in society “IN GOD WE TRUST” Antoun Saadeh in fact was emphasizing on spiritual values in every society to the point made him a target of criticism to communist leaders. By the way non of the SSNP party will ever agree on what I say of similarities between Antoun Saadeh wrightings and between the US Institution , that is mainly because they look at it from political view , where the biased foreign policies of the United States caused negative effects on that area of the world.

7-Communism and socialism: For Saadeh, communism is negatively seen as dividing poverty among people, suggesting instead that the capital shall not be divided because this approach will eliminate the main factor of economic growth which is based mainly on CAPITAL, This why he was accused by communists of being Imperialist. And while this language “Capitalism” that he adopted does not fit much what he used in the name of his party” Syrian Social Nationalist party” he explained that he can use a “Socialism “ part in his Capitalized society as insurance policy to insure the well being of every human, also saying if a rich nation cannot rehab the poor patients, then why we need to have any social work of any kind.That is why the west saw him as socialist or even Faciest. We agree or not on this, but this is what I see happened on most Euroe and Canada.

8-Fascist accusation: some like to see in the principals “Duty, Discipline, strength” Fascism, but tell me about one fascist ideology used Freedom as a first personal principal , it just does not click. Instead Fascism will seize individual freedom as a sacrifice for social reason or purpose. Fascist leaders will stay in power until their last man finish, Saadeh chosen death before any of his fellows goes to jail. Individuals lives worth nothing in Fascist ideologies, While Saadeh’s followers repeat after him that “ Life is no more than a moment of glory”.Syrian10 (talk) 03:03, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

his party maintains a web page at :http://www.ssnp.com —Preceding unsigned.Syrian10 (talk) 03:03, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

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Saadeh was not very closely or directly influenced by Hitler personally, but I'm afraid that there's not much room for doubt that he and the party were influenced in a general way by various fascist and irredentist currents of thought common in Europe during the 1920s and 1930s. In fact, the word زعيم za`īm was a pretty direct translation of the fascist titles duce (Italian) / conducător (Romanian) / führer / caudillo (Spanish) etc. AnonMoos (talk) 16:10, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

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Thank You,what that means, how about Comander in Chief /English. Please read carefully what I tried to present in detail about a process where Saadeh tried to put an end to This word "ZAEEM" rather than praise it. If you know the Syrian society you notice that the "self centered" personal views make a serious problem. there is a saying "all Syrians are leaders or want to be leaders" and this issue was mentioned many times in Saadeh’s work, and he was clear about his intention wanting to put an end to it. He claimed that title and wanted openly to prevent any other Syrian from becoming "Zaeem" ever again. Anyone may take this in a negative sense, but Saadeh was able to balance that with good intentions. 1- No Leader "Zaeem" in the history, seized a power or title and then offered an ultimate sacrifice 2- He Explained the purpose of using the title of an ultimate leadership "Zaeem" to be the authority of defining "Who we are" and defining the Identity of the Syrian nation that was almost lost after Arabic, Ottoman, English and French occupations. This is one and the only one idea that he did not want to discus or negotiate about, this why he packaged it with the title , closed the subject and said this is now the new ground. No one in Syria will ever be “Zaeem” again and no one will argue about who we are. To me it make sense for a nation lives hundreds of characters, Tribal, Religious, political, etc. How Syrians read this approach was not really very good. many of them including most SSNP members, understood or perceived a dictatorship for reason. and the reason is taking the title “politically” instead of “Philosophically” Again to make it simple, Saadeh never used the title “Zaeem” politically or militarily The subject is very unique this why it is difficult. Now, I can tell you about what might have caused all the confusion. Two of the party's presidents were true dictators, First one was George Abdel Masieh, who tried to Wright some philosophical subjects, offering the party, that no one else could understand Saadeh but him. Many of them actually started saying “YES no one understand Saadeh like George” making a real blockade to read Saadeh directly. George Abdel Maseeh was first SSNP president, who practiced his dictatorship abuse starting at Saadeh's widow and three daughters as per their own published works. Second dictator was Enaam Raed, who was more informed, educated and outspoken person. I do not think he was a traitor against his own party, but he caused the party to split because he was true dictator, and again he wanted you to read Saadeh only as he permit and he wanted you to elect the HOUSE members only after he agrees.. So there is history of Fascist practices in the SSNP. but that was for sure due to sick society, sick culture and sick SSNP leaders who were either self centered, living a hidden envy to Saadeh and wanting simply to be like him or because the Fascist models had it’s deeper roots into many societies during the world war I & II times. I truly think that those who understood Saadeh best are not his party member, either because of bad leaders like George Abdel Maseeh or due to long time of stress the party went through where aggression never stopped against SSNP members, one of them is my father, this was simply the reason for more political understanding of many social issues that Saadeh dealt with as a Philosopher. Again, to be fair or correct in understanding Saadeh, we need to read his Philosophy and forget for a while the political side. Soon you will discover a Christian priest trying to live in peace with or discover Jesus in the Quraan, as he did in his book " AL Eslam fi RISALATAIH" = Islam in it's two missions, Christianity and Islam. The party now lives on the edge of Syrian and Lebanese authorities who Succeeded in controlling what I call " the buffer Zone" that Saadeh created to prevent Election manipulation, they promoted the yes men from SSNP members who submitted to their will in trade off to opposing Zionists plans or by newly joined members, who were sent by these authorities to sit in the SSNP leadership. Many of those who were serious about reading Saadeh correctly are now living outside the body of SSNP. Some good Articles I read about Saadeh views were from Communist leaders or EX Syrian authorities. One prominent example was President Hafez Al Assad saying this “ When we were young collage graduates , we considered Saadeh to be a traitor who wanted to divided the Arabic Nation, but now, I think his way is the only possible way and the only detailed plan of how we may unify the Arabic world”

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The United States title "commander-in-chief" goes back to the constitution of 1789, and so could not have been influenced by Mussolini. It also is actually used in order to emphasize military subordination to civilian government (and not any great and glorious powers of the presidency). And it's odd that Saadeh "abolished" the title of za`īm by reserving its use exclusively for himself... AnonMoos (talk) 14:59, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

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I clearly stated that good reading will show that Saadeh was actually influenced by the American institution. He is an emigrant to the Americas not to Europe this why you need to find his background in the US institution and South American Patriotism.Syrian10 (talk) 03:03, 20 February 2011 (UTC) It is clear that you have a system of historical inter connections in your mind that is fixed and similar in fact to the way some totalitarians wanted to judge Saade with what they have ,while claiming they are not or they are open to understanding the other . You trying to make the connection that is not there and I tried to be fair about driving some Fascist examples of SSNP politicians who were affected by what you say the European fascism. This being said, I can bring so many examples of those who got the right message of democratic and dynamic society in Saadeh’s works and views. Abdallah Saadeh, Roman Orthodox, Medical Surgeon and SSNP president. Wrote a book before he dies about the SSNP history. If you go through it you will think that PETER ( the Christian disciple) was writing. Youssef Al Ashkar, Lebanese Maronite, SSNP president and like Saadeh, Philosopher rather than politician, has many books you may go through if you really wanted to understand Saadeh rather than just accuse him, Youssef Al Ashkar was studied by some modern European thinkers who described him as a world class philosopher who not only presented Saadeh’s Philosphy but to made break through on his own as a philosopher. Saeed Taki El Dien, Durzi from Lebanon. Author and short story writer. If you wanted to see a world class view of democracy rather than the double standards one that we see these days, you need to read him. Mohammad Al Maghoot, Syrian Ismaeli shiaat, short story and scenarist writer. you need to know his work to learn about patriotism that is as peaceful and pure of any aggression as Mahatma Gandhi was. If you understand Saadeh from the right source , you are giving yourself a favor in setting better dynamic ground to social and historic relations that will allow you to dynamically correct your yourself without need to changing your core principals. Saadeh will simply bring you the principals that Einstein started in science to use in reading history and society. The way you are trying to judge the man reflects your own fixations.Syrian10 (talk) 03:03, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

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It would be over-simplistic to say that Saadeh was only a fascist, or did not have other significant influences, but it would also be over-simplistic to deny that fascism was one of the significant influences on him... AnonMoos (talk) 19:00, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

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You do not seem to be looking for facts, and to make it more simple I see that You are actually presenting yourself as fascist who is good only in throwing empty accusations.Syrian10 (talk) 03:03, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Who Killed Saadeh

It is a fact now that his fast 48/h trial was a conspiracy. What is becoming "main story" now that the conspiracy involved Syrian and Lebanese authorities, King of Egypt who visited Lebanon before the trial, and finally the King Farouk involvement, who had no conflict ground with Saadeh brought about serious studies about English intelligence planning all this Syrian10 (talk) 04:52, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Also you do not seem to understand the word you are trying to use and accuse with. Fashism came after Mosolini's act of ending the Italian parliamt authorities and replacing that with comitti of top Business men in the country, changing authority of people to the authority of Capital. your proposal is saying that if Saadeh was to seize power he would be doing the same. that is not only wrong but conflicts with his economic views and lectures where he states that, while private property is to be protected, it shall still be considered a TRUST from the nation who expect from the owner no harm to the nation.That is socialism not Fashism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Syrian10 (talk • contribs) 04:36, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

The MAP / Correction

THE MAP of Greater Syria or Fertile crescent The map as presented in the article here is all wrong.

1-The northern border also incorrect not including the sources of Dijleh and Euphrates. 2-The Eastern border also incorrectly does not include the Arabic side of IRAN “ARABISTAN” which Iran acquired through a conspiracy inviting the governer of that State MR KHAZAAL to visit Iran and when he arrived there , they declared control on the ARABISTAN area as part of the Persian nation.Syrian10 (talk) 05:13, 21 March 2011 (UTC) --- Greater Syria is mostly used by Saadeh as"Natural Syria" referring to the Arial view where someone can follow clearly the mountains edges in the north and east, the desert arch south and the end of green line at Alarish city in Egypt. http://ssnp.com/new/maps_ar.htm. you can not understand the difference between the political map and the natural one until you understand the Social topology layers described in Saadeh's book "Emergence of Nations".The natural Syria is Geography that can not be changed by human means. The first human/social layer on top of geography comes the immediate social life like Mood, Food and music. Second Layer of Culture where more human factor play a role in shaping what these people really like to do about there life and they like to interlink among themselves and others including other nations, as for example sharing history and civil goals like in the Arabic world or other world Unions. Then comes the political layer where the nation is living a divided existence over it’s natural land or united one. There is no doubt that the divided existence in Saadeh's view was the main reason of dysfunctional social life due to interruption in both social, political and economic circulations. I was not able in the beginning to understand the idea until I read more Youssef Al Ashker who simplified the understanding of this multi dimensional look of society in a practical way when he say, some people see the world to be East or West, some see it as Christian, Jewish or Muslim, some see it as Communist or Capitalist but I think we may understand more if we see it for example as Village VS city considering the distance between nature and more complicated civil structures, emphasizing on knowing the layer we are in when we work or think socially. When I first got the idea, It compared in my mind to the Computer layers where we have a disk or hard drive, then comes the Kernel or shared resources, then the network then the file system then the user interface. A dysfunctional society will compare as having multiple operating systems on the hard drive where both the expansion or collapse of any of it will mean PC crash on the disk level. This analysis is what made Saadeh take many political actions described as not wanting to seize power as Baath party did. the reason for him was that it is not so important to waste efforts on changing the upper political layer in the nation, instead he wanted to start from the ground up like formatting his hard drive to make people sit around one table " how we may share resources and share one operating system" to secure the economic and social circulation. many times he explained that the best result is not necessary to end up with one government over the land as for example when Syrians lived hundreds of years under system of independent cities, way smaller political entities than states and even though these times were very successful in securing the social open structure open economy and even sharing one defense system. That is why, if any democracy can be established in that land , or any change can be practically worked out, it would be the Saadeh way who’s view of the social change did share very important concept with Christianity when Jesus says “ leave Sizar’s money to Sizar” simply because he was working on a different level or different “Layer”.Syrian10 (talk) 07:11, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Saadeh Auth Salute/ US like style

NAZI salute was practised as straight right arm extend forward.Saadeh was accused to be using the same saluting method as a proof of NAZI background. Let see if there is difference between Saadeh taking Auth and President OBAMA taking Auth rising right arm in right angle.

1-Saadeh formal Salute. https://www.google.com/search?q=%D8%A7%D9%86%D8%B7%D9%88%D9%86+%D8%B3%D8%B9%D8%A7%D8%AF%D8%A9++%D8%B5%D9%88%D8%B1&biw=829&bih=485&tbm=isch&imgil=VCN790F0ATNukM%253A%253BnVBU5l53nbQLdM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ssnp.info%25252Findex.php%25253Farticle%2525253D75090&source=iu&pf=m&fir=VCN790F0ATNukM%253A%252CnVBU5l53nbQLdM%252C_&usg=__FBNEITzv-xD0743Mur_LHsn5F50%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjX6eP61snMAhUGeCYKHZxeCfkQyjcIJw&ei=pcUuV5eDIIbwmQGcvaXIDw#imgrc=rmz-jFYstQmyxM%3A

2-American formal salute /OBAMA Retake Auth: http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Inauguration/story?id=6705930&page=1 Another example to show you how similar the Saadeh style to the American one.Syrian10 (talk) 06:08, 14 February 2011 (UTC).

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I can reference the similarities of the Salute as a symbol ( and the type of Patriotism in general) to the historical effects of Georg Washington who was a symbol in both Latin America where Saadeh lived most of his political life and in France, the previous American Ally who was occupying Syria and Lebanon in Saadeh's time. One big similarity to George Washington is the idea of leading the revolution and then refrain from seizing power to promote the idea of opposing dictatorship to be the only mean to build a strong nation. This trend appeared in every corner of the political choices of Saadeh's party who insisted to describe itself as a social correctional movement and repeatedly declared it's intension to distance itself of seizing power. This behavior is what made Mr. AKRAM AL HORANI to leave the SSNP and create his ARABIC Party aiming at the shortest road to power, who later became Baath Party with it’s known theory of “One nation –One Party”. Again the example is brought here to show how deeply rooted the Saadeh's philosophy in the symobol and example of the American revolution.Syrian10 (talk) 03:15, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Addressing personal titles / formal request /US Style

While some herein misrepresented Saadeh approach in using the Leadership title and While I explained previously how Saadeh changed the titlle ZAAMA, from personal use, to be a national institutional right and final authority regulation in determining the National character as to be SYRIAN. I bring here a formal request he presented to the Syrian authorities in 1937 to regulate the formal addressing titles used by Syrians to be the word "Mister" regardless of the rank or job or background. -1937/ Saadeh/Complete work/section 3/P218: "We request from our Syrian government, all across the land,to put final end to personal backward titles, to make MISTER the only title to replace all the bad turkish leftover titles, because our people will not be able to take this step without a government initiative." -Is this something exactly similar to the US title formalities.Syrian10 (talk) 06:52, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Reminder

Please remember that wikipedia is not built around original research made by editors, and that the talk pages are not for posting your personal theories about how a certain image looks like another image. Wikipedia is based on secondary sources that make analysis of the primary material. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:39, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Well I am an EX SSNP who was excluded due to non agreement of many SSNP practices of incorrectly reading Antoun saadeh, I am actually expecting them show up here for discussion. Yet I find it very poor that the main article briefing simply makes political defamation of a philosopher and social worker. When correcting secondary views become available or at least seems more likely to be true or at least an issue become disputed, then it is expected to see responsible correction by the editor at least by removing the disputed issue. The greater Syria MAP mistakes presented in the main article for example, not only shows a border mistakes as presented by Saadeh, but presents a different layer of the subject. The political borders of existing states, as you see on southern and eastern borders is changing the subjective of the natural national boundaries where a society developed over thousands of years to make it a political presentation which can bring to the table political disputes. The man did not ask no one to dispute the international political borders, but instead draw the natural borders in which a culture and nation was developed and where any political entity from within is considered by him as historical and civil layer accumulated on top of the natural one, and this for him is completely another subject. When Wikipedia claims a position of encyclopedia, it is very important to show the spirit of sincere interest of finding the facts. If you try to defame the actions of previous US president George bush, Wikipedia will not allow that in my opinion by simply saying this is not constructive.Syrian10 (talk) 20:41, 14 February 2011 (UTC.

As for theory talk, The Zawbaa resemblance to Hurricane sign used on American street is not a theory, as I was able to bring the original story of Saadeh’s work with his designer in modifying the hurricane sign to be the same but with three wings and then with four, and the resemblance in my picture is just a proof of this story. The picture also shows how different that is from the Swastika. Again I presented a secondary analysis supported by original historical story. Daniel Pipes suggested a theory of resemblance to Swastika, to you , his theory or propaganda was considered secondary analysis.Syrian10 (talk) 01:38, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

If you have a secondary analysis about the map or about the flag, then you should publish it, and then bring the publication here. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:11, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

This is fair suggestion I will do. Just wanted to remind everybody here that a NAZI defamation propaganda was some time directed against Americans saying that American students were the first to create the NAZI path. These defamations against Americans were actually listed on WIKIPEDIA black list. I expect similar treatment of black listing of those who try steer others by using NAZI defamations claims, simply because no one shall pay the price of NAZI crimes except NAZI themselves.Syrian10 (talk) 15:53, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Hum, time ago I added a certain trial to the article. It found no proof of relationships with Nazis. Even if they copied some external stuff, they didn't make any direct contact with Nazis. The Nazi party even sent a letter saying that they had never had contacts with the SSNP. It must have been lost in some old edition, it would be good if someone could locate that edit..... --Enric Naval (talk) 16:53, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I can't locate that edit. I am fairly sure that it's mentioned in at least one of the sources I used in the article. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:03, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Trial Bargain- Refused to dissolve SSNP in exchange of reversing execution

When I was in the SSNPs many said If Saadeh’s Philosophy was right, and his books were already out there, why should he choose death, over dissolving his party as he did not owe this to any one. Like many I agreed to this until Early 1990s, SSNP was prohibited in Syria. Authorities claimed wanting a true free elections of the Parliament ”The house” I had a chance to observe results for Mr “M.NAKAD” an SSNP who ran independent.My observation was in a small town of about 1000 votes. That town ,had some 30 Baath representative and no more that 5 SSNPs . The town voted in favor of Mr Nakad all but three votes, you can imagin what 27 Baathist did. Only then I knew why he refused his trial bargain. Saadeh continued in very small part in the SSNP and in most out in the mind of many Syrians.Syrian10 (talk) 04:53, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Philosophy of Minorities rights and integration.

When Saadeh ‘s was asked why not expand his movement to include rest of the Arabic world, especially when he says “we are the defending sword of the Arabic world”. His answer was? Because this will alienate non Arab minorities or communities like Kurds, Turks, ,non Arab Syrians, etc, If you base your patriotism on the Natural land, then this will apply similarly and correctly to all and in all times. As for the rest of the Arab world , we laid the ground of having four natural maps and all they have to do is decide the way they want to shape their political life and accept sharing the Arab union with us “ Syria qualify as per history to lead and shape the Arabic trend”.Syrian10 (talk) 15:16, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Religion - Christian Orthodox believer and Anti Clerical

Not to expand the discussion into his book Islam in two missions, proving his belief, I think enough referring to the Orthodox priest who attended his last night, and described him to be a true believer not fearing death. However in the same time "preventing Clergy of interfering with politics" Makes very good proof that his political background or at list similarity goes to Thomas Jefferson ( Orthodox believer and anti clergy when it comes to politics).Syrian10 (talk) 03:24, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Socialist part , no difference than, US, Canada , France or England.

Main stream social trends in the twentieth century , with no brainer, were divided into this: 1-Communism. 2-Fascist socialism : ( like NAZI Germany, where government decide what is good and what is bad) 3-main street socialism : Governments providing basic support to the poor like treatment, food and housing compensations. Where Saadeh fits in all this. 1-Saadeh criticized communism very briefly considering that distributing poverty equally will not help much. 2-Views of economy was based on the central concept of “PRODUCTION” and to promote that he argued the following( production needs Capital and social infrastructure and stability)socialism in Saadeh ‘s language will provide this part of production , “Social infrastructure” by Insuring those who do not make it for their basic human needs like food, treatment and housing . While United States provide food stamp program, other western nations went heavy on this like France ,England and Canada. Regardless of Saadeh seeming closer to the last three example, he still fits exactly in the same category ,abbreviating his view in one sentence” Rule of PRODUCTION based on free, protected capitalism, with socialist view of insuring those who do not make for their basic human needs to promote the continuity of national economy). The issue now is that after Communism collapsed, socialism became the new political “scare word” in the main street referring to the fascist example of it and some started actually attacking this food stamp programs in the United states. This why “socialist “ is not referring well to what it actually means anymore.Syrian10 (talk) 04:18, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Famous saying "Ethics makes up the core of every great social project"

This is the second most famous slogan of Saadeh philosophy after “ Life is no more than a stand of dignity”., and based on it he based many political and social analysis.Syrian10 (talk) 04:26, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Jesus Christ spirit -Saadeh Speech to SSNP uprising against the Lebanese Government July 5th 1949

Three days before his execution, Saadeh dispatched his Syrian fellows in Damascus who were going to join the Lebanese SSNP uprising against the Lebanese government who was arresting SSNPs on political background: Saadeh speech, as per one of the fellows Mr IAD Musilli, who was present that day:" You are the smallest army in the world, wanting to change the history path of this nation, for sure you will clash with police forces, your response shall never be like fighting an enemy as police personnel are your brothers, sons and fellow citizens. Never use arms or violence against them unless under extreme circumstances. You will pass through towns where you shall never take or accept anything unless you are completely out of reserve".Syrian10 (talk) 05:32, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

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Early life - Corrections

The Early life of Saadeh as presented here, in the introduction, presents this "''His concept of a Syria included all religious, ethnic and linguistic groups living in this region except for the Jews" that incorrectly means Saadeh objecting on Jews joining the Syrian society as people, and brings to the table a political propaganda of inhumane approach of anti Semitic accusations. To read Saadeh correctly, we need to say this , all social components, that naturally evolved in the land ,all together , make the overall character of the Syrian society, not to include groups that discriminated itself on a racial basis as superior, or for their believes not able to be integral part of the Syrian society like the Jewish view of being promised the land between Nile and Euphrates by God, as well as Arabs, in the Arabic peninsula, who are known in history for their racial trends and for their effects of barberic tribal attacks on the southern borders, like Jews, they believe they are best nation brought to planet by God. Arabs and Jews, in Saadehe's view cannot be integral part of the Syrian society,by their own choice and culture, for what they have of religious and racial beliefs extend further to make their political existence and that the Syrian society could not "digest" or integrate them through history. In his book "The Genesis of Nations" Saadeh notes about Arabs upon their entry to Syria, spreading Islam, Saadeh say " and for the good fortune of Syria, Arabs spread thin when they sent their armies east and west". In comparison Saadeh also objected on mass migration to Syria, by either Armenians or Jews , saying although Armenians are good expertise, still their mass immigration negatively press the economy and same thing apply to Zionists pushing Jews to migrate in masses to Palestine.. I tried here to bring Saadeh’s objections in the right contest and objectives of refusing, in his view, the racial and disintegrable religious and political beliefs of both Jews and Arabs and the negative impact of mass immigrations by Jews and by Armenians. To be just and fair , That is very important point to clarify a harmonious Philosophy presented by Saadeh, as he is actually against racial factors while the introduction is presenting him as racially driven to reject Jews as people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Syrian10 (talk • contribs) 04:51, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, you'll need to find a source for your claim and edit the page your self. --Wustenfuchs 15:24, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

--- Actually I find it OK to keep it as it is, because, the political bias in reading Saadeh is part of his overall story and the best way to understand his Philosophy may be done through contesting the secondary studies. the issue was properly referenced under No 1, and what I presented here is based on SSNP literature available online and on Saadeh's book The emergence of Nations. Syrian10 (talk).

The word Syria , Arab and Aaraab . for Ninorta Dawood

This presentation is for Ninorta Dawood .While objecting on some of her Religious referrals in a historical search , The rest is very important. Ninorta's look, with her prominent cheeks, is said to be of Canaanite characteristics. here is the link of her presentation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaRbXXzu8rE&feature=player_embedded#at=47

There are some mistakes Ninorta made in her presentation like referring to the Lingual mixing between Arabs and Syrians as making them one thing . and this is a mistake because all societies mix and interact without becoming one social thing mainly due different geography that usually gives every society it's main characters and its unique economic and social cycles.

Ninorta's referring to Adam ( from Quraan and Torah ) as a historical fact is something she promotes from her father's research ( Mr Ahmad Dawood ) who believes that the Arabian peninsula is the origin of humanity]] (talk)

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. It's a close run thing, as it's hard to say there's a firm consensus to move. But with two supports (including valid arguments) versus a "weak oppose or neutral" and a "linguistic scholarly transcription" which doesn't really address WP:COMMONNAME, or indeed actually have a vote attached, I think the ayes edge it. (non-admin closure)  — Amakuru (talk) 15:50, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

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Antun Saadeh → Antoun Saadeh – The correct transliteration of أنطون سعادة‎, and the way Antoun himself spelled his own name, is Antoun Saadeh. Leaving it as is, is like calling Abraham Lincoln Abraham Linculn. [9], [10], [11] Relisted. BDD (talk) 19:25, 6 November 2013 (UTC) Worldedixor (talk) 04:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

"Antoun" is a transcription influenced by French-language spelling conventions; not sure it's the only "correct" transcription... AnonMoos (talk) 05:14, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks AnonMoos. I sincerely value your participation in this civil debate. You are right that it's not the only "correct" transliteration but is it the most pertinent to Antoun Saadeh's historical record? For example one can transliterate "جورجينا رزق‎" as Jorjina Rezk (rezk obviously is a more accurate transliteration than rizk), but she uses Georgina Rizk (not rezk). Do you agree or disagree that Antoun Saadeh himself used the spelling "Antoun"? Also, do you agree or disagree that transliterations in Lebanon during his life were heavily influenced by the French occupation?Worldedixor (talk) 05:25, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

By the way, the stupidest transcription I've come across is ar:فامك جانسن for Famke Janssen, when "ج" is completely incorrect pronunciation... AnonMoos (talk) 06:31, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

• Weak oppose or neutral - can't really get excited about this proposal "Antun Saadeh was" gets a few more than the French-styled Antoun Saadeh, but overall about 50/50. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, In ictu oculi for participating. I appreciate your 50/50. Let's hope we can have a civil debate, a consensus and a compromise one way or the other. I am fine with whatever compromise we all reach. Worldedixor (talk) 13:05, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Let me enter my STRONG SUPPORT for the record. Worldedixor (talk) 13:05, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
• Support Sure, whatever. There's not much to go by here, so I'm fine using the subject's preference. --BDD (talk) 19:57, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
• A linguistic scholarly transcription would be 'Anṭūn Saˋāda or 'Anṭūn Saˋādah or similar. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:02, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Request for Comments

There is an RfC on the question of using "Religion: None" vs. "Religion: None (atheist)" in the infobox on this and other similar pages.

The RfC is at Template talk:Infobox person#RfC: Religion infobox entries for individuals that have no religion.

Please help us determine consensus on this issue. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:44, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

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External links modified

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130620184957/http://thelondonmagazine.org/issues/oct-nov-2011/the-arab-poet-laureate-an-appreciation-of-adonis/ to http://thelondonmagazine.org/issues/oct-nov-2011/the-arab-poet-laureate-an-appreciation-of-adonis/

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